Yeah Boss, I knows!

It is all in good humor. A chance to offer "prof's" for your choice and tell the forum why. I guess growing up with Ruark and Hemingway and JA Hunter did it for me. I genuinely like the P-14/`7/M30-34-35 series of actions, and the extra length is not an issue for me. I hunted here in Idaho for years with an 11lb Hawken rifle with a 34" barrel so the weight thing is no problem either.

Keep it light, keep the discussion interesting/entertaining.

regards,

Rich
DRSS
505 Gibbs...rules the continent

What follows is a quote from an article by Terry Wieland that appeared in the November/December 2006 issue of RIFLESHOOTER:

"You want a bolt-action .500 to match the power of the double-rifle .500 Nitro Express: a 570-grain bullet at 2,100 fps. If a rifle will do that, it's a winner. The Jeffery does it, in spades, and that's the reason Empire has now made more .500 Jeffery rifles than the original W.J. Jeffery did. (Its production was around 25 rifles total from the time the cartridge was introduced in the 1920s.)"

"The .505 Gibbs, legendary though it is, is a slightly different diameter bullet (.505 vs. .510) in a much bulkier case delivering slightly lower velocities. Legend or not, that is not a recipe for success today."

Dan Pedersen, the Arizona barrel maker, provides tubes for a wide range of clients. He worked for Fred Wells for some years and is familiar with most of the makers of large rifles across the country. He says the problem with the Gibbs is that the case is so large, it requires cutting actions down more than he considers safe"

"The only action that can comfortably accommodate the Gibbs is Granite Mountain's Magnum action with the .75-inch bolt," he says. "Others I've seen chambered for the Gibbs have cut away the rim around the bolt face to almost nothing. I don't want to have a rifle like that firing close to my face."

"The knock on the .500 Jeffery is that it handles a similar situation by having a rebated rim. In theory, this could create feeding difficulties with the possibility of a jam or a cartridge failing to feed in an emergency. In practice, though, this does not happen with a well-made rifle."

Dave, I think TW was comparing factory rounds.

Jeffe summed it up pretty good. When loaded to similar pressures the 505 will yield higher velocities because it has more boiler room.

As far as case head thrust goes I’d have to question all of the 600 OK & 585 Nayati that have been built on .700 bolt bodies.

Matt V.

I actually own a .500 AHR on a CZ550 and it will ONLY feed reliably via a single stack mag box. I was able to finally make it feed out of the double stack mag box but had to weld rods in place to stagger feed the cartridges ( mag box dimensions too small. It required major ramp and feed rail mods also.
I have also built a .505 Gibbs on a Vektor action and was able to get it to feed reliably. Either cartridge seems to me to be abnormally difficult to get to feed.
I use Horneber brass in the 505 Gibbs and have had no extraction problems. The brass for the .500AHR was Bertram (gasp) and yes hot loads would stick.
Don't kid yourself either the GMA action has lots of issues in itself and the crap about thin rims is a urban legend with no basis in fact. I've got a boatload of guns built on the CZ550 with .025 rims and have never had an issue. 1917 Enfield actions are no bargain either.-Rob

Rob,

Doesn’t the 600 OK have the same case head size as the 505 Gibbs?

I’ve been fooling around with modern pressure loadings in the Gibbs and people keep talking about case head thrust (like in the TW article above).

I just keep referring back to all of the 600 OKs and 585 Nayatis built on the CZ without problems. Wouldn’t the case head thrust be similar in those loadings as a 505 Gibbs when loaded to higher pressures?

Matt V.

Dave asked this question of folks with ACTUAL .500 Jeff/.505 Gibbs experience. The .500 AHR is essentially a .500 Jeffery with slightly more case capacity, less of a rebated rim , but otherwise essentially identical. I have also built and used a .505 Gibbs on a Vektor action. My answers are yes there are serious feeding problems inherent in these cartridges IMHO and not easy ones to fix either. Bertram brass will stick in the .500AHR at high pressures. While it is possible to make a .500 jeff on a std M98 action, I would be very very certain that I knew a whole lot about the heat treatment of that action before pulling the trigger. I have one half built right now and you can be sure it will see a few proof loads before I shoulder it myself. I gave up and made a single stack mag for it.
Finally IMHO the .500a2 outclasses both the jeff and Gibbs and other than for snob factor should be considered as the best of the fast .50 DGR cartridges. It feeds easily, brass is cheap and doesn't stick and it will kill anything that walks this earth as well or better than the two cartridges under discussion.
When the idea to build either a Gibbs or .500 Jeffery enters your head, lie down and wait for the idea to go away. You'll thank me later.-Rob

500A2: Good. I have hunted bison and bear and paper targets out to 942 yards with mine, 570-grain to 750-grain bullets aplenty. I even have some cute little 450-grain GSC HV's to try next.
500 Mbogo: Better, but very scarce. My overworked gunsmith is still sitting on the only one about to be hatched.
.505 Gibbs: Try the CZ offering, just to play with brass and bullets yet not sink too much cash, only if you have a .505 itch that simply must be scratched. Ho hum.
.500 Jeffery: Only to be considered as a gunsmithing stunt rifle and range-toy.
.500 AHR: Run like hell!

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeffe,

quote:

do we REALLY want to drag up your sob story on your "500 ahr" axel/posuer/judy/scott/500ahr ?

yeah, thought not.

Sure why not. At least I have hunted large and/or dangerous game with these cartridges. Have you shot anything with them besides an occasional feral pig or perhaps a Texas whitetail?

bison are large, not danderous..

lets start with you trying to rip off AHR for a second stock..

then your posts as axel, saying it was a reworked model 70 that "your father redid on a unimat lathe"

then your sob story selling it, one time or another your posted you never even SHOT it.

get your lies straight, boy

how's that (har!) blackrifle bogbore coming?

go back under the bridge,

Just added a new topic with a pix of an original 500 Jeffery! It feeds very smoothly and shoots like a dream...

To get either gun to shoot well your going to need a competent gunsmith so feeding shouldnt be a problem. Having said that I have shot both calibres and the Gibbs had the feeding problem with Kynoch ammo.

Jeffe,

bison are large, not danderous.. How would you know?

lets start with you trying to rip off AHR for a second stock.. Now there is a blatant lie and LIBEL. Interested to know who told you that bit of misinformation.

then your posts as axel, saying it was a reworked model 70 that "your father redid on a unimat lathe" Sure that was me? No you aren't, are you.

then your sob story selling it, one time or another your posted you never even SHOT it. Well perhaps that is the truth, but then you will NEVER know will you. There are numerous people in this world that do know the truth, though.

Anymore retelling of BS or libel to spew forth Jeffe? Why are you so jealous of me anyway? If you weren't so jealous you would simply let it be.

ScottS,

there is an unorganized sort-of plan to drive you back under the bridge or force you to act like a real human being by castigating your every post full of BS stories. Until last wek it seemed to be working. Guess we'll have to ramp it up a little.

You are a pathological liar and hapless buffoon, and a wanna-be here. You are jealous of anybody here who has ever accomplished anything noteworthy. You can't do, so you sit at your computer and make up things, and then forget to make a copy of your post's so that you can keep your stories straight from day to day. I feel sorry for you...

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
When the idea to build either a Gibbs or .500 Jeffery enters your head, lie down and wait for the idea to go away. You'll thank me later.-Rob

Sound advice, but if I laid down every time I had a hair-brained idea I'm affraid I'd never get up....

Matt V....

Rich,

quote:

You are a pathological liar and hapless buffoon, and a wanna-be here. You are jealous of anybody here who has ever accomplished anything noteworthy. You can't do, so you sit at your computer and make up things, and then forget to make a copy of your post's so that you can keep your stories straight from day to day.

Do you have any data from an independent source to support those statements? I have routinely screwed with the minds of those that say I am jealous of them (although I believe the opposite is true). So the "stories" I post to you and a few others may or may not be true. The truth is you "gentlemen" do not deserve the truth. Besides you couldn't handle it anyway.

For the record my comments on this thread, prior to being "attacked", were right on.

Party on!

It would be very enlightening to publish the names of living gunsmiths who have successfully built a proper feeding and ejecting .500 Jeffery. Given the num,ber I have personally seen with major Problems, I'll bet that list is really small. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
It would be very enlightening to publish the names of living gunsmiths who have successfully built a proper feeding and ejecting .500 Jeffery. Given the num,ber I have personally seen with major Problems, I'll bet that list is really small. -Rob

If both Europe and the U.S. are included in the survey, I would be shocked if the number exceeded 20, and surprised if it exceeded 12.

Dave,

How does your CZ 550 feed?

Matt V.

So there's not really any mystery to a proper functioning 500 Jeffery beyond getting the proper action and magazine to begin with? The foolishness starts when it's shoehorned into the action at hand as opposed to the action it really requires?

No wonder good ones are uncommon.

Matt:

My CZ is a .500 Jeffery. I only had the chance to run five rounds through it before I had to send it back to CZ for repairs because the chamber needed some work but I did test the feeding before I sent it back. I loaded up some 535 grain Woodleighs, both softs and solids, using Horneber brass. It seemed to feed just perfectly. The magazine holds three and with three in the box, it is tight but not near as tight as it would be with the .505 Gibbs. I load it from the magazine so that means one in the chamber and two in the box. I really don't anticipate any problem with the feeding. I am kinda scratching my head about this. I can't understand what all the fuss is about the .500 Jeffery feeding! I'll give you more of a report when I get it back.

Dave

I would to comment as I have had a 500 Jeff and a .505 Gibbs. I was working up loads for both recently and I have shot about 100 rounds of each caliber in both rifles. The 500 Jeff was made on a standard (thumb cut) mauser action by Sterling Davenport. It was not a .500 Jeff but a 500 Schuler. I had it reamed to be a 500 Jeff so it would handle the Horneber brass. The 505 is built on the large Vecktor(sp) action and was put together by Lon Paul.
Both guns feed beautifully which is a tribute, no doubt to the makers. I have not had a feeding problem in either rifle so I think that feeding is a factor of the maker not the caliber. A debate of which "caliber" feeds better is immaterial as no rifle should be considered for dangerous game unless it feeds flawlessly. I do not know which caliber is more difficult to get to feed properly as I am not a gunsmith and that has not been a problem with either of these rifles.
Both rifles/calibers shoot well and I have not had a chance to shoot either on dangerous game. I don't think I can tell if I had rather carry one rifle or the other but the 500 Jeffery does feel a bit more compact and perhaps better balanced, but that may just be me. Both shoot Woodleighs under an inch. My load for the Jeffery was Accurate 4350, Federal mag match primers, Horneber cases and 535 grain Woodleigh softs and solids. Both loads shot at 2395 and I didn't need them any hotter than that. The Gibbs loads I liked were RL 25 and Norma MRP2, Woodleigh 525 grain bullets, Federal mag match primers,and Horneber brass. The feeling I got was even though the Gibbs shot loads at 2400 fps, it had a lot more top in than the Jeffery. Neither caliber needs it so I didn't press the issue. I think there is a lot more difference in particular rifles than in the two calibers. This is just posted for what its worth. MUFASA

Like Mufasa, I have owned rifles made by Sterling Davenport in 505 Gibbs as well as 500 Jeffery. The Gibbs was made for Mark, the bad boy, Sullivan and was extremely light for caliber at about 9.5lbs. That rifle would put the hurt on you with standard loads. It was wonderfully accurate and it ended up with someone else and has accouted for several elephant and many buffalo. My Jeffery weighs in at 10.5lbs and I am loading it to 2200-2250f/s and am real happy. It also is a shooter. It is being fitted with a Rigby floorplate now so I can get three down and one up and not have a lot of spring compression on the three in the box. My rifle had a little trouble with the three down as it was tight. Putting the new deeper floor plate on it will ease things a bit. I had a similar problem with the Gibbs also and Sterling made a deeper floorplate and things went well from that point on.

It think, overall, it is easier to build the 500 Jeffery over the Gibbs as even with a standard 98 mauser action there is enough room front to back. That is not the case in the Magnum Mauser action and the Gibbs.

My .500 Jeffery was built on a standard length FN Supreme M98 action with a completely redesigned, hand-made magazine box & floorplate assembly. 3 rounds are staggered in the box while I'm just able to feed a 4th round from the box into the chamber. I load a 570 grain Rhino or Woodleigh bullet to 2245fps and have never had any feeding or extraction problems. The riflesmith who built this superb rifle, Danie Joubert of Pretoria, South Africa, really knows what he's doing when it comes to building .500 Jeffery rifles (and any other rifle for that matter). There are however, many gunsmiths who just don't get the recipe right and that is where the feeding and reliability problems come in. The Jeffery case has a very short neck and many people see this as a disadvantage. I've overcome any potential bullet grip problems by using a custom Lee Factory Crimp; the bullets stay firmly seated under repeated recoil. I use the rifle for general game hunting in bushveld (shots usually taken between 40 and 90 yards) and plan to use it on a Cape Buffalo quite soon. I can't comment on the .505 Gibbs as I've never owned or fired one but a well-made rifle in either calibre will serve their owners with distinction.

Mfezi:

I had Lee make up a factory crimp die for me as well.

Dave

It seems that CZ also makes the 505. I suspect that if I were to look for one today it would be a factory job, not a custom one. Mostly due to $$$. The following is from the CZ catalogue.

go factory if you can...building is an option for people who want style as well as substance...and have the 3-100 times as much $$$ to pursue that route.

Rich
DRSS

.

the 458 lott is an entirely production gun.

the 404, 450 rigby, 505 gibbs, and 500 jeffe are "custom shop" guns, but not offered at the HIGH custom shop prices from other makers.

these all use magowen (sp) barrels, made in one shop, one at a time, and several are made per day (once production started)

these are FAR more "factory" guns that any other 404, 450, 505 or 500, with the exception of the 500 being also an empire standard round.


so, it may be best to say that those are standard calibers, but not production line guns.


heh, or the CHEAPEST custom shop rifle you can possibly get in those calibers

.

quote:

Robgunbuilder:

IMHO the .500a2 outclasses both the jeff and Gibbs and other than for snob factor should be considered as the best of the fast .50 DGR cartridges. It feeds easily, brass is cheap and doesn't stick and it will kill anything that walks this earth as well or better than the two cartridges under discussion.
When the idea to build either a Gibbs or .500 Jeffery enters your head, lie down and wait for the idea to go away. You'll thank me later.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffe:

The 458 Lott is not a standard CZ production rifle, it is a figmentation of CZ-USA and is an aftermarket product. They are not made in the Czech Republic at all. And in this lies the "problem" with these rifles.

Alf,
you are splitting hairs..
there were more CZ 458 lotts sold today than there where original 500 jeffes made EVER... but no one would say the 500s wheren't factory, now, would they?


the FIRST 458lotts (remarks) certainly where, however, ANY 458 lott that does not have a remark stamp is most certainly a production rifle. ALL 458 lott rifles since the restamp day, leave the CR with 458 lott barrels, so chambered. That CZ restocks SOME of them in the US is a non-issue


no less factory than the mercedes imported to the US in the 70s and 80s, when the 420 was a taxi in europe and a high status execu-mobile here... weight, power, tirm and options added on the way to the us, but factory none the less.

Figment of CZUSA or not, I can buy a factory 458 lott for $750bucks us, EVERY DAY and have it delivered as fast as UPS can get here.


so, alf, it's factory.. in fact, all are factory, as there is not a soul on this board that would call what comes out of CZ as a custom rifle.


if I can order it monday and have it friday, in a NEW rifle, it's factory.

.

Alf,

"tweaking"... that means EVERY model 70 EVER made, as the famed pre-64's where individually made, WHICH IS WHY THE BEAN COUTNERS STOPPED MAKING IT.

Apply the same rules to the same rifles.

Do you think a J. Rigby would cost as much if it was a production (never was) gun?

the 458 lott comes from the CR in a ship and is placed in an american preferred stock.

the FIRST YEARS 458 lotts where certainly an american item.

the CUSTOM SHOP makes the 404, 450 rigby, 505 and 500 jeffe.

These are seperate items.

however, no difference than remmingtons or winchestess custom shops.

the ca 458 is a LINE PRODUCTION gun, exactly like the 375.

in fact, it is nothing but a reamer and barrel mark difference then the (NOW NOT PRODUCED FOR ANYPRICE) 458 winmag.

So, yeah, the 458 lott CZ is a factory gun.

pretty much period.

And, dang it, CZ has made more 505 gibbs than gibbs did.. they had more in a SINGLE shipment.

ALF,

both apples vs oranges AND splitting hairs here.

IMHO, by summer or early fall, they will be turned out in the factory in CR. I think this was a stopgap measure, just to gauge the market and get them out to customers. The folks at CZ-USA tell me it was their idea to test the market and that they cannot keep up with demand. They have a couple hundred (!!!!!) back-ordered in all four cartridges, and the 505 Gibbs is the most popular. Lots of us apparently read Hemingway growing up.

regards,

Rich
DRSS
CZ fan

I'm new to the dangerous game calibers and have been trying to learn as I go here:

Which caliber has been around longer - the 505 Gibbs or the 500 Jeffrey?

It seems to me that an older cartridge would have more of a history of proven reliability. I am always hesitant whenever someone comes up with a brand new exotic caliber - not that I have any doubt that it would work - but that a caliber that has been around for 50+ years or so has proven itself and there is a reason that it is still around.

According to the 500 poll on another thread here it seems as if the 505 Gibbs is a more common round - which also tells me that it would be easier to find ammunition for.

Which caliber of the two: 505 Gibbs vs 500 Jeffrey is it easier to find ammunition for?

Last questions - the 500a2 has been talked up on this thread. How old is the 500a2 round? Is it another exotic round or has it been around a while? Is the 500a2 another name for a 500 A Square?

Thanks everyone. I'm learning a lot.

Littlebigd,

The 505 Gibbs is the eldest at ~ 90 years of age (actually a tad older). The 500 Jeffery is around 80 years old. The 500 A Square (also 500 A^2) is about 20 years old.

Jeff,

Rock river is now saying that it will be November, or there abouts, before they ship 458 SOCOMs.