The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 45-70 PENETRATION TESTGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
I came across this link on another forum. Not very scientific but interesting. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm | ||
|
| One of Us |
O' Lord, not this again. | |||
|
One of Us |
So I guess buff wont be using drywall for protection  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Funny how the 45-70 gets no love and respect on here. Loaded properly and with the right bullets it will out penetrate a lot of other accepted cartridges and loads, yet even with pictures, it gets no kind words. For what it's worth, a friend of mine shot through and through an 18 inch diameter cypress tree the other day with his 45-70 Marlin 1895 Guide Gun. He plans to use it in Zim in Sept. for Cape Buffalo. | |||
|
One of Us |
sharpsguy: I am on your side. If a 45-70 will shoot through a bison with the right bullets (e.g. a 540 grain Garrett hard cast), I see not reason it would not do the same thing with a buffalo. Actually, while not as aggressive, bison are a lot bigger. Get close and put your bullet in the right place just like with any of the nitro express rounds and you'll be good to go. Most 45-70 are pretty light though and it's going to kick like hell! The argument always starts over here when the 45-70 guys start saying that the 45-70 penetrates better than say a .458 Lott, 450 Dakota, 500/450, or a .450 NE when the bullets from the latter cartridges are traveling much faster. I am no physics expert but common sense tells me that with equal bullets, the faster cartridges should penetrate better. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| one of us |
Agreed gentlemen! If you like non-expanding bullets for your buffalo hunting then a 45/70 ain't much different than a 458 Lott! The truth hurts some I guess. For the record, I don't like nor do I use non-expanding bullets for buffalo, so I therefore do NOT use a 45/70. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am the founder of the band of 45-70ers I love it. Shooting hard cast flat nose bullets they will get the job done. Mixing expanding bullets and critters that can hurt you is where it gets into trouble. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave, Having never hunted or butchered either species of buffalo I'm curious to know if the bison and cape buffalo have similar bone size, and muscle mass???? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't see any problem with the 45-70 as a cartridge. It is fine old caliber. The problem comes when those that like the caliber try tell us that it somehow is more effective than any other cartridge in its class. All the .458's are alike, the only difference between them is the velocity that they can propel the bullet. Something like a continuum from 45 Schofield? to 460 Weatherby? Some go faster than others. j | |||
|
| one of us |
Boomstick,
How much dangerous game hunting, specifically buffalo, have you done? In my experience exactly the opposite of your quote is true! For the record I HAVE killed a few buffalo. | |||
|
One of Us |
If you want to use a 45-70 to hunt DG it is your business if your PH allows it. But to say there is little difference between a 45-70 and a Lott is ridiculous no matter what kind of bullets you shoot. I seldom post on these threads because it never changes peoples minds, and I am not anti 45-70, but a 45-70 is not nor never will be a Lott. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Here we go again gents! plenty of Kool Aid to go around! The 45-70 is a "wannabe" in the large, DG hunting dept. I think I'll stick with "real" DG cartridges! You can build it up all you want, you can provide all the wet newspaper penetration tests you want, the fact of the matter is that the 45-70 is piss poor when the chips are down against anything more dangerous than a whitetail deer. Oh well, I guess those of us that know best will continue to utilize cartridges appropriate for the task at hand, everyone else will sing the praises of the great 45-70 punkin' chunker  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Piss poor, your ass. You apparently have never seen a properly loaded 45-70 work on a large animal. | |||
|
One of Us |
gents, Here is yet another .45-70 penetration test with Punch bullets that is worth reading. http://www.levergunscommunity....unch+bullets#p236027 I have seen the .458 holes in the 5/8" steel plate and they are real! I have shot that plate with hotter copper solids and they did not punch through. When the 440 grain Punch bullets arrive, I will run a few through my .45-90 a bit faster than 86er's .45-70 and see if any of them perforate the plate at 100 yards.  NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
|
one of us |
and we're off!!   | |||
|
| one of us |
Mike70560, A .458 hole is a .458 hole no matter what cartridge launched the bullet! Solids have NO place in a buffalo hunt as they plain arse SUCK! No matter is said solid was launched by a 45/70 or a 460 Weatherby. It seems very obvious to me you have not shot many buffalo, or at least not with appropriate loads (read correct Woodleigh SN)!!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Scott, Show me your an ass all you want and then impress me with your massive total of buffalo but the fact is the only thing a 45-70 has in common with a Lott is caliber. And yes expanding bullets are better for buffalo, I used TSX on my two buff and planning on Woody solids for elephant and Woody SN for buff from my 470 in less than 60 days. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Have you killed them with softs from a 45-70? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Have never shot a Cape Buff, probably never will at my age, but have shot brown bear, grizz, black bear, moose, etc. when living in Alaska and still own an '86 Win. in 45/70 and it can be a potent round, no doubt. But, did I take it w/ me to hunt something that can kill me, no I took a 375HH and an old beater Browning Safari 458. I probably could have used the 45/70 OK, but why when I had/have proven DG hunting rifles?? From all I have read and talked to those that have "been there and done that" regarding Cape Buffalo they are not the easiest thing to knock down and keep down and I would opt for the caliber that has a track record of doing the job properly. I like the 45/70, but not for dangerous game in my opinion. | |||
|
| one of us |
No, the cape buffalo has nuch heavier bone structure, including over lapping rib bones for instance... JPK  Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
This is BS. The same non-expanding bullet travelling faster will leave the larger wound chammel. Four hundred fps is a hell of a lot of differential. BTW, I have shot four cape buffalo with Woodleigh solids, and they die damn quick when hit well. I've fired four 45/70 cast bullets into an elephant head simulating a frontal brain shot. The two harder bullets broke, but the main portions of the bullets traveled nearly as far a 300gr Woodleigh solids from a 375H&H. The softer versions evaporated. Neither the 375H&H nor the 45/70 provided penetration anywhere near equal the 458wm. I would use a 45/70 on a buff, but it sure wouldn't be my first choice. Anyone who claims that a 45/70 can provide penetration similar to or equal a 458wm is smokin' dope. Simple physics proves otherwise; firld performance confirms it. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
One of Us |
Another 45/70 vs whatever thread? OK good enough then. There is some BS I see here on several points! First let me qualify myself, I am a 45/70 fan. If it shoots 458 caliber bullet then I like it! I have 45/70 guide guns, 1885 single shots, Ruger #1s and several Hi Grade 1886s--all in 45/70. Most of my experience with 45/70 dates back to 1997-2002. Back in those days (not that long ago) bullet availability was rather limited. Really good premium bullets were not available for 45/70, especially the lever guns. Of course in the single shots one could use 458 caliber bullets for 458 Winchester. I have done some fairly extensive test work wit 45/70 and various bullets, in the lab and in the field. I can tell you for a fact that while 45/70 is a fine little cartridge---It ain't 458 Winchester and it certainly cannot be compared to a 458 Lott! It very simply cannot get to those velocities, especially in a lever gun. 45/70 is a fine black bear, pig, deer, and like size critter cartridge. With the bullets available and designed for 45/70 today it is better than ever. But regardless of great bullets it still comes up short for some jobs. It is by no stretch a cape buffalo cartridge, elephant cartridge, or hippo cartridge. It would be a superb leopard cartridge with a proper bullet, say a 300 Barnes X would be a good choice for that. Lion, no way! Yes, it will kill and has killed all of the big dangerous game, but so has a bow and arrow, and that don't make it a cartridge for that mission. So now what, how is it michael458 is such an expert? I am not an expert by any stretch, but dare say I have done some of these things, yes I have shot cape buffalo with 45/70. I have also shot giraffe, kudu, warthogs, impala, black bear, wildebeast, zebra and probably some other things I can recall right now. I have also tested 45/70 on elephant---but only after putting it down with 458 Lott. I have also shot these same critters with other calibers, including 458 Winchester, 458 Lott and my various cartridges and bullets I have developed. Without any doubt in my mind whatsoever, 45/70 comes up short in many areas, and cannot and never will be considered an all around dangerous game cartridge--period! As well as some of us love and adore 45/70--this is one area that is best left to more suitable cartridges. Side by side in the lab and in the field 45/70--458 Winchester-458 Lott--the 45/70 is dead last in penetration, effectiveness, and energy transfer to target. A function of proper velocity is a key difference.      A few examples. On the subject of solids, someone mentioned there is no use for solids? My god, I would not go to the field without solids, and for me today that includes nearly any animal I might pursue! For cape buffalo after the initial shot with a proper constructed soft, then it's solids from that point on! Your most likely shot will be a rear or raking shot requiring great depth of penetration. Yes, some great softs, like the barnes X might in some cases do this for you, but no way I want to take a chance on that. Elephant and hippo, solids all the way. My hunting today for everything includes solids backing up the softs, even for plains game and bears! Same applies, if not down immediately on the first shot, your most likely second shot will be a rear or raking shot, solids will get the job done for you if needed. A good proper FN solid will also transfer great amounts of energy up front for you, hitting animals hard! Solids have a purpose, drive straight and deep. They should be an important part of any big bore mix! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mzx: I can't answer this for you because I have never shot a cape buffalo but I can tell you that a trophy bison bull is a huge animal, considerably larger than a cape buffalo and they can absorb a lot of bullet shock. I watched a guy put four or five bullets from a 300 Remington Ultra Mag into the boiler room of a big bull and he still had to take over my .404 Jeffery with 400 grain solids to put it down. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| one of us |
Michael458, Have you looked into North Fork Cup Points for second and subsequent shots on game from buff on down? Perhaps the perfect bullet for the purpose. Some limited, very controled expansion, significantly improved wound channel compared to even flat nose solids, but only 20% reduction in penetration compared to the North Fork Flat Nose Solid, which is a penetration phenom. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| One of Us |
JPK: I have never shot a cape buffalo but I seriously doubt that this is true. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave Bush I can concur with you that bison are very difficult to put down. I have only shot two of these, both with Win M1886 full of 425 gr cast bullets--made by North Star I think--expanding cast bullets. Huge expansion, more than a Woodleigh soft. One bison I shot 4 times all in the heart/lungs before going down. While taking photos, after positioning the bison, he came back to life and started breathing!!!!!! My rifle was in front for photos, I am hanging on the back side, run around, grab rifle, jack a round in, shoot in the neck! What a hoot--good fun! Second bison took 3 of these same loads, I think at 1950 fps or so. I recovered several of those bullets. Have to dig them out and take some photos of them. Cape Buff are just as tough however! I am leaving end of the week for buffalo culling in Australia, I hope those buff are just as difficult to deal with too. I am on a test mission with the 500 MDM and my 458 B&M. JPK I have heard good things about the North Fork Cup Points. They do sound like a good mix between traditional FN solids and expanding, a bit of both! I have not tried any. I really should give some a go and see how they do. As you know I am a proponent of 450 gr bullets in the 458 WInchester--and more so in my 458 B&M. These should be the cats ass for that sort of job. Since 2006 I have gone to the traditional buffalo load out with nearly any hunting I have done. Not so on small stuff of course, but anything from kudu, zebra, bears, and such I use an expanding bullet up front, followed by FN solids. It has proven to work for me excellently. I think I must check the North Forks out this winter. The only reason I have not done so is that I have just not felt lacking in this dept yet. I have used some of the North Fork SPs and they are superb. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
One more thing I would like to add to this 45/70 discussion is this. As we know, if compared to 458 Winchester and 458 Lott, then velocity is the key with both penetration, energy transfer to animals. But one can also increase the energy transfer to animal tissue, even at the same velocities, with a increase in bullet diameter. A few years ago I was on a little test mission with one of my prototype .500 caliber rifles. In velocity this prototype 1st cartridge was pretty much equal to the velocities obtained with the 45/70. On this little test shoot I was shooting wildebeasts, zebras, eland, even one giraffe, impala and things like that. I expected reactions like I had seen with most of the animals I had shot with 45/70. What I got was something totally different, and was somewhat surprised. Animals were going down like they were hit by something really big. Hammered to the ground in almost all cases! It was quite a learning experience for me. Now I had some things going for me, good bullets, maybe in some cases a tad more velocity than what I could get in 45/70 and equal size barrel, but not a lot. Biggest difference was bullet diameter from .458 to .500 caliber. This prototype .500 was upgraded with a bigger case, and turned into the 50 B&M. It gives velocity in the 458 Winchester range, only .500 caliber. Food for thought. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| one of us |
Dave, You are simply wrong. In addition, the skin and underlying layers on the front chest of a buff - can't right now recall the term of art - are very thick and pliable, leading to great absorbtion of energy on frontal shots. While the majority of PH's today prefer a soft followed by solids, even today, many PH prefer all solids for buff. And those who prefer softs for the first shot often prefer solids for front on shots at buff - and that from DG rounds offering much greater performance than the 45/70. Ask yourself, when was the last time anybody recomended a DG cartridge for a bison, or solids for ANY rifle cartridge or shot. The bison is large, but it isn't a cape buffalo, in the same way that niether is Betsy, the hereford. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
Bigger really is better. But that common sense conclusion is anethma and blasphemous to the "its only shot placement" crowd. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| One of Us |
I do believe that bigger is better--but to a point. For myself I make that point between .458 to .510 caliber. And for most of the rest of my hunting I will be using my cartridges and the big stuff with my .500s. True .500 caliber. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
JPK: I am going to defer to you here because I have no experience with a cape buffalo but I do have some experience with bison. I have seen numerious posts here on AR where guys report shooting THROUGH cape buffalo on a shoulder shot with a 250 grain Barnes TSX bullet from either a 9.3X74 or a 9.3X62. I seriously doubt you could do that with a bison but anything is possible. You have got to trust me on this... a big bull bison, especially with a heavy winter coat is a very impressive beast indeed in some instances several hundred pounds bigger than the biggest cape buffalo ever hoped to be. I would be willing to bet that any rifle/bullet combination that worked on a realy trophy sized bison would also work on a cape bullalo. I think bison cartridges, like buffalo cartridges, start at 9.3 and go up from there and bigger is better IMHO. Now, that being said, I am not of the school that thinks the 45/70 will perform as well as a .458 Lott. As I indicated in my first post in this thread, common sense tell me that all things being equal, the cartridge with the greater velocity should penetrate better. One other thing. When we hunt bison, I almost always load one soft in the barrel and solids in the magazine. I shot a really big bison bull in Kansas a couple of years ago with a .404. My eperience was exactly the same as Michaels. We thought he was down but as we approached he got to his feet but a 400 grain Woodleigh solid through the neck put him down for good. Good luck and good hunting. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave--Please check your PM. | |||
|
one of us |
News Flash- The 45-70 is a MARGINAL cartridge for Dangerous game! Yes it will work on Buffalo assuming that it delivers the penetration equivalent of a .45 Black and Decker Drill bit 3-4 ft long. AND the bullet hits a VITAL area! I believe a properly placed shot CLOSE IN with a 45-70 on a undisturbed animal that doesnt hit major bones will kill a Buff. So will a .22Lr with a brass solid. They walk around for awhile then eventually fall over! Now, take the more common case where the shot isnt perfect,your farther away than optimum and you hit bones etc. Well the 45-70 isnt so great is it? Buff runs off as before but doesnt fall over and you spend the next few hrs tracking trailing and shooting magazines full of 45-70's at it till it finally falls over. Wow thats HUNTIN! Gotta chuck my .600Ok's for a Marlin Guide gun! NOT. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
Moderator |
sharpsguy, check your PMs....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
Moderator |
I've killed a bunch of Bison (my Pa had a Bison ranch) and a few Cape Buffalo (just 3 to be exact). Despite the small sample size, it is my humble opinion that the difference in physical structure and toughness between the two is greatly exaggerated. I will confirm that their rib structure is very different, but I don't think that amounts to a hill of beans to a rifle hunter. It does make a difference to a bow hunter though. We did lots of penetration testing with an arrow on cape buff carcasses and the ribs do wreak havoc on penetration. I beleive the main difference in percieved "toughness" between cape buff and bison is their reaction to being wounded (mortally or otherwise). As others have posited in the past, there may also be a bio-chemical difference as well (more adrenalin). I don't know. They may be a little more tenacious to life than a bison (take longer to succomb to a similar wound), but I really don't think it has much to do with their bone structure. JMHO, Canuck ps: boomie, you should avoid making matter of fact statements about things you can't back up with experience. I agree with most of the folks on here w.r.t. bullet choice on cape buff....softs first, solids after. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I can tell you this for a damn fact!!! Fact #1 BOTH OF THEM ARE DAMN TOUGH AND CAN SOAK UP BULLETS LIKE SPONGES! Fact #2 (Most Important) THEY BOTH TASTE REAL DAMN GOOD!!!!!! My mouth is watering for a backstrap from a cape buffalo, and would settle just fine for a bison burger too!!!!! All my bison is gone. I had a 1000 lbs of burger too! Gonna have to go get a couple more I think! These two facts I can attest to for sure! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
|
One of Us |
DRAT!  I better go get my 600 Overkill out of the trash and put my Marlin Guide Gun and XLR back in the safe  4 days to go ...  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
|
| One of Us |
Canuck my point about the softs was that they will penetrate less and on game than flat nose solids and might not reach the vitals out of a 45-70 not a DG class cart/velocity. At 45-70 velocities it needs flat nose hard casts to catch up in penetration to the larger carts in softs. This does not take 10 safaris to figure out. Just because I have not slept with Angelina Jolie does not mean I dont know that I would not have fun... All I have to do is trust people who have been there before Can't expect rem 405's @ 1800 to git r done. I Agree that in say your 470 mbogo A-frames will be more than enough as you and many others have proven. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks Boomie!!!  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 45-70 PENETRATION TEST
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia