The difference between the two are - compared to my litterature - 114,91 grains of water for the first, and 111,50 for the latter.

That ain't much of a difference.

Yet people claim a 100 fps gain over the Lott.
At the same preassures, is this really so?

Oh, and while we are at it, has anyone heard anything about the Ackley having to little taper?

Bent, when I get home from work, I'll post up a picture of a loaded Lott and Ackley that better shows the dimensions than the one I posted on the wildcat forum. But it'll have to wait till later.........

Bent- I have never checked the water capacity of both cases once fired so I can't comment on your numbers. However I do own examples of both guns. The Ackley will hit 2400fps with a 500gr bullet and no obvious pressure signs. You will be hard pressed to see 2350 from a Lott ( assuming you like sticky bolt lift). Same bullets, same twist barrel etc. Personally, I've always liked the Ackley over the Lott.
As for the taper issue . Whats your point? Both cases extract easy enough with any normal load.-Rob

The Lott was designed to allow use of the .458 Winchester Magnum. This is important to some and not at all to others.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Bent- I have never checked the water capacity of both cases once fired so I can't comment on your numbers. However I do own examples of both guns. The Ackley will hit 2400fps with a 500gr bullet and no obvious pressure signs. You will be hard pressed to see 2350 from a Lott ( assuming you like sticky bolt lift). Same bullets, same twist barrel etc. Personally, I've always liked the Ackley over the Lott.
As for the taper issue . Whats your point? Both cases extract easy enough with any normal load.-Rob

Rob -

Thanks, your personal experience is highly valued.

As for the taper, no big deal, just checking. It has less taper than the .470 Capstick.
I am now making a .423 on a belted .30-06 case. Some people have claimed it has to little taper, but it has the same taper as the Capstick, so I guess I should be all right!

Bent- The .600Ok has .003/inch taper. It still extracts just fine. The cam of a mauser action is a handy thing!
You can shoot .458 Win mags out of a Ackley just as easily as through a lott. .-Rob

the .003" per inch taper gives the 505 belted rum a shot in the arm...

the biggeest bullet on the .532 bolt and 3.34" or 3.7" oal actions

but the 470 and 500 a.r. is the sane route.

I believe that the 458 Win mag,the 450 Ackley and the 458 Lott are all top cartridges.Of the three that closely resemble the 375H&H, the 458 Win was the first to be introduced.It was introduced in 1956 followed by the Ackley in 1960 and the Lott in 1971.It would be interesting if anyone had any more knowledge of their beginings.

According to research done by ALF, the watts preceded all of them and was in fact the very first nitro 450 for a bolt gun. Do a search on the watts or contact him. Very interesting story

Here's the photo. The Lott is a factory Hornady solid load while the Ackley is loaded with a 550 grain Woodleigh solid......

watts/lott/ackley history lesson.

http://www.african-hunter.com/458_watts___458_lott.htm

and on the right the badly photoshoped version of the 450 acley 2.65" giving 97% of the lott or 500@ 2275fps by speculation

My .450 Ackley uses the full length .375 H&H case fireformed to the chamber. I throat it about .25 longer with a separate throater. This lowers pressures and since I can re-cannelure my bullets, lets me load em out till I get to .01 of the mag box max dimensions.Works wonderfully and I get honest 2400fps with a 500gr bullet out of it with WW748. MOA at 100 yrds and probably 2000 rds through the gun. No flies on the .450 Ackley.-Rob

Rob -- did you ever develop any 550 grain loads and what kind of velocity did you get out of it?

Rob,
Now I understand how you get 500-grainers up to 2400 fps with the 450 Ackley: longer freebore and longer COL.

Finally, I understand!

That is how I like to load and throat any cartridge, to whatever the box length will allow. Like with a 3.8" box.

Now to

The 450 Barnes Supreme by Fred Barnes existed by 1949. So did the .416 Barnes Supreme.
Eventually Fred had 10 kittens in his litter of proprietary cats: .288 to .505

Most say that the 450 Watts was first, in the early 1950's, but I say the 450 Barnes was first, unless someone can show me the 450 Watts existed prior to 1949.

No disrespect meant to the memory of George Hoffman's .416 Hoffman, but Fred beat him to that one too. George Hoffman's accomplishment was to revive the dying .416 in all its iterations for us all to continue to enjoy today.

Probably Roy Weatherby got them all started with the .375 Weatherby in 1944, and they commenced to copying and necking up after that.

Coincidentally, my initial requests of a gunsmith (named Willis Fowler in Anchorage, Alaska) to build some oddballs went like this:

1) .375 Weatherby
2) .416 Barnes Supreme
3) 450 Barnes Supreme

I did not even know I was retracing history.

The mag box on my Ackley isn't particularily genenrous and you can easily get 2400fps with a std length Ackley with the bullet seated to the factory cannelure. No big gunsmithing secrets there. just use ww748 and compress if you have too a little. The long throat does lower pressures and is a 5 minute job on the lathe.
I have done it many times. Many other competent reloaders have seen the same velocities so its just a matter of experimenting.
Here is a big secret, do the same thing to a .458 winchester chamber and load the bullets out long. You can EASILY MATCH THE lOTT. This works particularily well in a Ruger single shot. But then again 10 minutes with a hand reamer gets you a Lott.-Rob

Another thing to keep in mind is the 450 Ackley can chamber and shoot the 458 Winchester as well as the 458 Lott ammo.
Take good care,
Dave

Firing .458 Win Mag ammo in the 450 Ackley is the proper procedure for fire forming brass for the .458 BS-Ackley.

This boom stick creation is the same as the 450 Ackley with neck length shortened from 0.421" to 0.071". Brass length 2.850" becomes 2.500".

Use a good crimp on that one when you reload it!!!

RIP -- the official nomenclature for that vertically challenged "Ackley" is the .450 Stumpy -- er, the .450 Stompy (as Boomy renamed it).

Rob -- did you ever experiment with 550 grain pills?

Whitworth,
Thanks for the proper nomenclature. I was just guessing that boom stick had done that one.
BTW, my first .375WBY, .416BS, and 450BS are Whitworths that started out in Yugoslavia.

Personally, I have never had the pleasure to meet a 550-grain bullet of .458 caliber, but have done some plinking with 600-grain Barnes Originals in my 450 Barnes Supreme. They were too slow for my tastes, but IIRC, P.O. Ackley's ludicrous data had the 600-grainers doing 2400 fps in his 450 Ackley. Yeh. Right. 34" barrel?

Whitworth- No I have only used 500 gr Hornady's, woodleighs and cast bullets. I'd imagine with a 550 you should be able to see 2350,maybe 2400 with a long throat and ww748.
RIP -I also generally use a rifled barrel although in the quest for max velocity a smooth bore would be preferable( total freebore) and no TWIST. At the typical range a 450 Ackley is used at, I doubt it would actually make a difference. Bang dead buff -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Firing .458 Win Mag ammo in the 450 Ackley is the proper procedure for fire forming brass for the .458 BS-Ackley.

This boom stick creation is the same as the 450 Ackley with neck length shortened from 0.421" to 0.071". Brass length 2.850" becomes 2.500".

Use a good crimp on that one when you reload it!!!

not quite rip...

the shortened version has a cal neck and the win mag would be .15" shorter so fireformed it would be approx a .3" neck (proportionaly a 500 jeffery ratio neck) but you throw the win mag brass away after the first use...it is only if you want to use factory ammo in the shortened ackley or stompy as whitworth has helped me name.

here it is on the right (yes it IS a poorly photoshoped version)
cal length neck 2.65" long that will do 97% of what the lott will do or 500@ 2275 fps but in a win mag action with the ability to shoot factory ammo.

this is what you call a "bubbacat"

I'm going to have to buy a chronograph.......you see what you guys are forcing me to do? Shame on you and your bad influence!

550 grainer at 2350 has to kick a bit!

Close but no cigar, eh?

Each step up in size, Win to Lott, Lott to Ackley is a step up in performance and versatility. Not a big step, but it's there.

Here's another photo of the kindred:

1. Lott fired in Lott
2. Win Mag fired in Lott
3. Win Mag fired in Ackley (not a problem!)
4. Lott fired in Ackley
5. Ackley in Ackley

it is just a way to max out the h+h brass in a std action...it is kinda like shipbuilding in a bottle...only interests the guy doing it with too much time on their hands.

That's it! In the middle, the .458 BS-Ackley: .071" neck length after it is reloaded and fired a few times to grow back out to 2.500" brass length. Blowing it out in the Ackley chamber shortens it below 2.500". Probably never have to trim it before it has a head separation.

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:

what is the neck and shoulder diameter of those fireformed??? thanks

Great photo, PWS! Do you know the case capacity of the Ackley versus the Lott? Have you done much load development? Also, does Lott ammo still shoot accurately in your Ackley?

no the bsackley has a cal neck...
it would be a diff reamer with the shoulder starting at 2.2"ish

Not sure what you're after? The neck and shoulder of the three on the right are the same, about .480" neck, .500" shoulder.

Neck/shoulder of the two on the left are .480" tapering to case base.

thanks! so 10 thou body taper and 10 thou shoulders...

here is the part i thought most interesting on the subject...

quote

______________________________________________

By the mid 1970’s plenty of people could see a reason for something more than a .458. Winchester had been forced to significantly download the .458, and terminal performance suffered. The new loads produced only around 1950fps in most sporter length barrels, and although with a good bullet penetration is usually adequate at this velocity, the old knockdown effect was noticeably less. In the meantime, Jack Lott had re-invented the wheel, so to speak, with necked up .375 cases to form a full length .450 magnum. Essentially this was the same cartridge as the much earlier Watts, but with a longer throat, and (depending on how the cases were made up) a case .05" shorter. It was Jack Lott’s version of this wildcat cartridge that became standard, since as a well known gun writer he was able to publicise it better. Professional hunters, game wardens, tsetse control officers and others who had cause to regularly shoot big game and seldom under favourable circumstances went for the .458 Lott in a big way. Its knock down effect on elephant was noticeably better than even the hottest loaded .458 Winchester. Many Professionals reckoned that the new Wildcat was superior to even the .470, and possibly as good as the .500 in terms of knock out/knock down effect. Using Softpoint bullets on lion, the .458 Lott is in a whole different class to the .458 Win due to the higher velocity and the cat’s sensitivity to hydrostatic shock (to get a proper “explosive wound†effect due to hydrostatic shock, the velocity of a bullet needs to be above 2200fps). Sensibly loaded to moderate pressures the .458 Lott will drive a 500 grain bullet at 2300fps. You can get it higher, but then sticky extraction becomes a risk on a hot day and that just isn’t worth it.

Converting a .458 Win to the .458 Lott is simple, provided the action is long enough. Many .458’s are built on standard length actions, and converting them to take a magnum length cartridge involves changing the magazine box and quite a bit of machining by a very competent gunsmith. Many .458’s are, however, built on a magnum length action and these just beg to be converted. Here conversion simply entails inserting a correct conversion reamer (note a conversion reamer cannot alter the head space unlike a poorly used chambering reamer) into the chamber and turning it until it seats. It's almost simple enough for any good home hobbyist to manage. The only catch is that the feed rails may require a little professional filing to get the longer cartridge to feed flawlessly from the magazine.


L - R .500 NE, stopper par-excellence; .470 NE, the standard double rifle cartridge by which all other dangerous game rounds are judged; .450 Ackley, its good ballistics are compromised by pressure problems; .458 Lott, duplicates the knock down power of the .470 - its what the .458 Win was meant to be; .458 Winchester.

On re-chambering, there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over the minute variation between Watts and Lott. All the modern chambering reamers make the chamber long enough to accommodate a case 2.85" long, and any difference is simply in the throat dimensions. It wasn’t always like that, and I have frequently seen rifles converted to .458 Lott in South Africa that were only made to accommodate a case 2.80" long. This is a real problem when trying to use modern A-Square Factory ammo, or even most reloads. The front of the chamber pinches the round in the area of the crimp. Chambering of the longer rounds is frequently possible but the pressures are through the roof as the crimp cannot unfold to release the bullet (a bit like firing 2 ¾" shot gun shells in an old shotgun with 2½" chambers, something has to let go sooner or later). Make sure when you order the conversion you specify that you will be using the longer cases:- I cannot emphasise this enough, just be sure, very sure. On throat dimensions, Jack Lott got it right. The longer throat lowers pressure and that is definitely required in a dangerous game rifle. Consequently, I don’t know why anyone will order a rifle chambered for the short throated Watts anymore.

Whitworth,

Sorry, I've never done much case capacity measurement and didn't compare the Ackley with the Lott other than one range session to test the interchangability of ammo. I didn't do a strict accuracy test but the group of mixed up ammo showed little deviation in size, power, or point of impact from proper ammo.

Corresponding to the cases:

1. Hornady 500grSP factory Lott load in 23" M70 Win Mag rechamber yeilds 2298fps for ten shots.
2. Win Mag equivalent reload of 75gr H4895 in Hornady Basic brass (trimmed, obviously), 2137 in above 23"M70, for one shot.
3. Same Win Mag equivalent went 2169 in 23" MRC Ackley, for one shot.
4. Hornady Lott factory in MRC Ackley, 2260, five shots.
5. Dunno load but my maxes in the Ackley were 2400fps w/450TSX, 2325 ballpark w/500grainers, and 2175 ballpark w/550 Woodleigh softs.

I sold the Ackley this spring due to a multitude of minor problems, amongst them was that it seemed to have a "slow" barrel. For the extra pizzaz of the Ackley, there was no performance improvement over my Lott. I (and I'm sticking my neck out) attribute this to the 1-10 twist I specified for the barrel. That barrel also hated my two favorite Lott practice loads, a 360grain plain base over 18 grains Universal Clays (1400fps) and 65grains of H4895 under a 425grain gas check (2100fps). Those two loads are 2-3moa out of my Lott all day long. I think it's because the 1-10 twist was too fast for the nekked slugs as I never really found a satisfactory cast bullet load for that rifle. However, that barrel shot jacketed and mono slugs very accurately and with minimal fouling. In the end, I still have the Lott and it's diverse loads and sold the .450 to fund a .550 Express (currently in progress).

Thanks for the info PWS -- it's appreciated! My Ackley is being built as we speak.......

PWS,

Exelent pic and info!

Thanks,

1:10 twist makes little or no sense in a .458 unless you are going to shoot lead pencils. You will be much better served with 1:15 or 1:18 with 500 gr Hornady,s or Woodleighs. No wonder you had problems. -Rob

If I had a chance to do it over, I wouldn't go with a 1:10 twist again. I agree with the theory of the fast twisters but giving up the versatility, sheer fun, and volume of shooting of the reduced loads isn't worth the infintesimal penetration gain of top load in the faster twist.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do a head to head penetration test between the Lott and Ackley as the Lott was at the gun doctor (sad story) for most of the time I owned the Ackley.

Rob, I now understand why you're getting 2400 w/500grainers out of your Ackley. Your setup hedges the factors on the plus side, mine was on the minus. Still love the round and it's power and versatility though!

Cheers,

PWS

My first 458 lott was deep throated, I don't know how deep by I loaded a 450 gr X way out there and never hit the lands. With it's 21" barrel I could get 2280 w/ 500 hornadies, and the cases just fell out, and that was with 87 gr of RL15. It seemed even with a drop tube and compressed charges, I couldn't fit any more powder in the case. That gun might have taken a bit more. So I'd assume with a 24" tube that barrel could have done 2350 w/ 500's. My second lott had a much tighter chamber and w/ 84 gr RL 15 was hitting 2250 w/ 500 gr.

I still we're all fiddle frigging around trying to get much over 2200 fps w/ any H&H based 45. If you really want to push things just go up to the 450 Rigby or 460 Wetherby, much more flexible to have the case capacity to get where you want to go. And at the recoil level of a 45, no reason not to use a large action that can hold it.

You bet I hedge things on the plus side. Thats the advantage I have in being able to do my own work and experiment with throats, twists barrels, actions triggers , stocks etc. You really get to find out what works and what doesn't that way. If I am shooting lead pencil like bullets, I go fast twist and still throat long. If I am shooting normal bullets I go as slow as possible to avoid high pressures. In addition, I like deep throats and slow twists in quite a few things! It's the only way to go! ViVa Las Vegas-Rob

I will make one final point. What I want in a .45 cal DGR is a cartridge that will drive a 500gr bullet at an honest 2400fps with stone reliability.
I also want to be able to stuff it in a handy gun that I can build reasonably light and carry all day. I also would not be caught dead IN A DECENT AFRICAN HUNTING CAMP WITH A WEATHERBY. I have a elegant Pre-64 winchester in .450 Ackley that meets all the above criteria. A Lott will not get to 2400fps. The .460 weatherby requires a bigger action and most agree it needs to be loaded down to 2400fps particularily with softs. Thus, the .450 Ackley is the optimum .45 cal DGR cartridge in my book. -Rob

Why 2400fps over say, 2200fps?
ozhunter