Here are some CEB's recovered on my recent safari.

This first pic is of the two .585" 750gr BBW#13 solids recovered from a tuskless elephant. Both were found near the base of the tail. One entered on a frontal brain shot that was a bit too high and the other entered on a frontal chest shot paid as insurance. Both traveled the full length of the cow. One appears pristine, the other, not so much. Of interest is the fact that these bullets, in my rifle, for some reason are just slightly marked by the rifling forward of the first driving band. It isn't engraved on the shank, but there is a definite marking from each rifling land. However, there are no similar marks between the bands or even between the third and fourth (or base) bands. Michael or Sam, any ideas why this might be?



A better picture of the rifling marks forward of the first driving band:



This is a 700gr .585" Non-Con recovered from my buffalo bull. The bullet entered on the point of the right shoulder and was recovered just under the skin, near the tail, on the left hind quarter. Full length penetration. This is the only petal recovered and was found inside the chest cavity.



Lastly, 5 petals from the two 250gr, 9.3mm Non-Con bullets used on the lion. All petals were found inside the chest cavity with both shanks exiting. We actually recovered 7 petals but I have misplaced 2 of them. In any event, they worked as advertised and were devastating on the cat's vitals.



We didn't recover any of the 9.3 solids or Non-Con shanks so I don't know if they are marked prior to the driving bands as well. I haven't measured the shanks on the bullets "pre-firing" but it does seem odd to me that they would be marked this way.

Todd

If you have any bullets left run over them with a micrometer.

I doubt if this markings would have any effect whatsoever on the performance of the bullets.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Todd

If you have any bullets left run over them with a micrometer.

I doubt if this markings would have any effect whatsoever on the performance of the bullets.

Pyzda

Yep, I'll do that when I get a chance. Probably this week sometime. I agree however that it isn't affecting performance of the bullets. More of a "That's interesting" type of observation.

That does suggest that the bore diameter of the rifling is about .0001" smaller than the diameter of the supposedly non-bearing nose portion,
or something equally inconsequential.
Cosmetic marking.
I could measure groove diameter from a lead slug of the barrel myself, but measuring the bore diameter requires more than my calipers.
Does the barrel maker specify it to be CIP spec?
And what do Todd's calipers say about the diameter of the nose and the driving bands.
The unmarked shank ahead of the base band is just the design of the bullet.
Tight bore or cosmetically oversize nose of bullet?

The crumbled nose and gash in the side of the one solid: Looks like one of Doc M's concrete block T-rex tests.
So accept that as exceptionally tough elephant anatomy encountered, or question it as metallurgical defect that can happen randomly?
Just sayin' ...

Here is another picture of the same bullet right after recovery. The brass is still shiny here and you can see the lands marking a bit better. Sorry for the large format of the pics but I'm going for detail here.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
That does suggest that the bore diameter of the rifling is about .0001" smaller than the diameter of the supposedly non-bearing nose portion,
or something equally inconsequential.
Cosmetic marking.
I could measure groove diameter from a lead slug of the barrel myself, but measuring the bore diameter requires more than my calipers.
Does the barrel maker specify it to be CIP spec?
And what do Todd's calipers say about the diameter of the nose and the driving bands.
The unmarked shank ahead of the base band is just the design of the bullet.
Tight bore or cosmetically oversize nose of bullet?

The crumbled nose and gash in the side of the one solid: Looks like one of Doc M's concrete block T-rex tests.
So accept that as exceptionally tough elephant anatomy encountered, or question it as metallurgical defect that can happen randomly?
Just sayin' ...

RIP, interesting what would cause that one bullet to deform so! I suppose it maybe traveled through more bone that the other? I agree with you about the marking being cosmetic. Just thought it interesting since the bullets are turned on a lathe. Something in the program must have turned the shank between the 3rd and 4th band a bit more than forward of the 1st band.

If the markings are even all around, that would indicate a + bullet/barrel relation. (larger bullet/smaller bore).

AND/OR a deliberate CNC programming.

If this markings are predominant more to one side it most likely to be Non-concentric cartridges, loose fit in the throat, or worst Non-concentric bore.

Pyzda

Well gee whiz!
That last picture of the nose engraving looks more marked, like more than .0001" by eyeball.
Yes, I have noticed the much-less-than-bore-diameter measurement between bands on other CEB bullets.
Designed that way.
Your bore diameter and the CEB nose diameter are a tight fit. Bore riding nose.

Pyzda,

The markings are uniform all the way around the bullet. All lands are leaving an equal amount of marking.

RIP,

Certainly could be that my rifle is just tight. Thinking about it a bit more, I don't know if I can say with certainty if both barrels are doing this however! Maybe some more testing is required.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Sam's 577NE is a VC as well. I wonder if his bullets are similar after recovery.

In regards to the bunged up bullet, is it possible there was a piece of metal from say a poacher that was embedded somewhere between where you shot and where it stopped that it hit? That gash on the side looks like it hit something way harder than itself.

Todd

That is a good news on both counts. Tighter bore means tighter fit and more accuracy.

However if it was me I wouldn't worry about the markings.

What I would do in the future is, to mike the next lot(s) of bullets, just in case your bore is too tight.

Pyzda

quote:

Certainly could be that my rifle is just tight.

With what we have to go on, this would be my theory on the slight marking on the nose.

I have seen this a few times before, but with some of the "Test Bullets" that Sam turned in the beginning fitting tight in some of my test rifles. It seems to be of no consequence either way, and not enough to cause any strain or pressure issues which would be the bigger concern to me more than anything.

quote:

The crumbled nose and gash in the side of the one solid: Looks like one of Doc M's concrete block T-rex tests.
So accept that as exceptionally tough elephant anatomy encountered, or question it as metallurgical defect that can happen randomly?

In the field, one can never discount anything, because literally anything can happen, and that is where things happen the most! It looks almost exactly like the T'Rex tests with the 1 inch concrete blocks, the nose.

Take notice of that bullet, and that "Gash" on the side of the bullet! It takes something pretty serious to do that? My first impression would be that bone could not do that? I have seen some nutty things, and will not discount bone doing that altogether, but would seem to me that bullet grazed through something harder than it was?

Baxter, just read what you said as well, seems we concur on that thought. LOL.......

Michael

Now one can speculate forever on some things, but question is, that gashed bullet, what could have happened had it been a "Lesser" bullet? One not quite up to par in construction and design?

???????

M

Todd

I have recovered a 375 300gr Dzombo solid, which can be described a a monolithic solid with 57% meplat from a oblique frontal on tuskless which looked similiar, although slightly less damaged.
The bullet passed through the left side of the brain into the joint surfaces of the skull on the vertebrae and then through 4 vertebrae to be found under the skin on the R side of the ellie(still in a straigh line). That is a whole lot of hard bone.
It is only the 2nd Dzombo that I have recovered in 2 giraffe, 1 eland,4 buff and 2 ellie. The other recovered bullet was a backup through a tree trunk of 8in at a buff.

Could that bullet not be the frontal brain that travelled through a whole lot of vertebrae on its way to the back, still exemplary performance!

Probably hit a kidney stone

And those hurt...no thanks for the reminder boomy!

I just got a box of those CEB #13s for my 585 Nyati. Looks like they'll do the job, for sure.

Boomy, you may be on to something. Whose to say the ele didn't pick up a small rock in her food and it was sitting in her intestines and along comes a CEB and whacks it?

Back in 2004 my buddy started off at 9 yds on a bull elephant with a 458 Winchester, 450 Barnes Banded. Missed the brain by a foot, as it turned I hammered it in the shoulder 458 Lott and 500 Barnes Banded, my 2cd round spined it in the rear, game over. My buddy kept shooting it in the head, couple more times, then everywhere else too. HEH HEH........Recovered one of the 450s from one of the head shots, on the side in the middle of this bullet was a perfect round section taken out, one of the other 450 solids had hit this bullet somewhere along the way and cut a section out of it. LOL.... Anything can happen in the field.

Yes my thoughts were hit a stone that was ingested or it exited, hit a rock, did a ricochet and suppositoried itself back in the pachyderm.

I have no idea what that bullet hit but Michael is correct in asking how a lesser bullet would have performed. Even with this damage, it appeared to maintain straight line penetration, and plenty of it for that matter.

Here is another picture of that deformed bullet.

I would say that the bullet hit a large bone before it was adequitly "cussioned" by soft tissue.

Just looking at the deep body marks on the very first picture and I start to feel that there may have been something more involved than a bone or a soft tissue. (another bullet perhaps?).

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
I would say that the bullet hit a large bone before it was adequitly "cussioned" by soft tissue.

Just looking at the deep body marks on the very first picture and I start to feel that there may have been something more than a bone or a soft tissue. (another bullet perhaps?).

Pyzda

Well, I don't know. Looking at the bullet, the gash is on one side but it is distorted in the other direction on top. It's also just a bit "bent" the opposite direction of the gash. When I get back home, I'll try to get some better pictures of it with something other than an IPhone camera.

I would think that if it hit another bullet, the guys might have found that "other" bullet as well? Possibly at least some evidence of a poacher's bullet if that was it? Nothing of that sort however. Also, the "pristine" solid here doesn't appear to have been hit, so I don't think it hit that bullet. I hadn't thought about the "rocks in the digestive tract" scenario. What are the real chances of that being the case?

quote:

I hadn't thought about the "rocks in the digestive tract" scenario. What are the real chances of that being the case?

That bullet hit something larger than a rock that might have found its way in an elephant stomach. Or, a DAMN BIG ROCK.

Again, one really can't ever discount nearly anything in the field, but I have my doubts about a rock unless it was the size of a mans fist, something like that.

That bullet hit something damn hard. I have seen some seriously damaged bullets that hit ball joints, and even some copper solids that nearly looked like this bullet after hitting a ball joint.

There are some big heavy bones in an elephants head at some points, and if it were not for the gash on the side then I could go with that--but its the damned gash in the side that has me fooled right now.

I think that in all reality, we will never know. I would love to see what a Hornady DGS would have looked like after that same shot!!!! I have a pretty good idea!

LOL

Michael

Todd

Side Note--Photobucket.

Have been back to forth with Photobucket this afternoon. It is THEIR end of things. Beta is the problem. Which I think is the new system they are trying????? Anyway, after two computers, and 3 different browsers, the deal is they disabled the "Beta" on my account--Now I have it back, while I have not uploaded or posted, it seems to be working and maybe far better than it has in the last several weeks.

Just FYI.........

Side note Hijack Off........

M

My comment adds nothing to what's already said, but I do know that whatever caused the damage to that bullet was VERY hard. There is a LOT of wipe on the leading edge of that bullet! I don't think I've ever seen a solid show that kind of front end damage, and I've recovered and seen more than a few.

Interesting, I never had a Woodleigh RN do that! Sorry Michael I couldn't resist.

Seriously, I don't think any bone would gash that bullet the way it was gouged. The nose damage possibly but I have put a CEB #13 through an elephants spine diagonally and there was no damage at all. I suspect that the elephant had a native metal arrow point or even more likely a spear point broken off in the forward part of its body. The bullet would have been going pretty fast to cause that gouge.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Interesting, I never had a Woodleigh RN do that! Sorry Michael I couldn't resist.

Seriously, I don't think any bone would gash that bullet the way it was gouged. The nose damage possibly but I have put a CEB #13 through an elephants spine diagonally and there was no damage at all. I suspect that the elephant had a native metal arrow point or even more likely a spear point broken off in the forward part of its body. The bullet would have been going pretty fast to cause that gouge.

465H&H

465

This is about as close as one can speculate.

The "uneven wipe" on the bullet tip points to the "something rather narrow and long-ish" was hit at very high speed.

Maybe Todd will have more clear pics. and better explanation.

Pyzda

The side gash is fairly consistent to the twist so maybe encountered in the beginning of the penetration.

If you hadn't described the shots, my guess would be a tooth (enamel is incredibly hard).
Or perhaps a very old, calcified tumor or hematoma.
Other than that, some embedded or swallowed foreign object as others have suggested.

The bullet obviously went through the cinderblock wall the elle was hiding behind before striking the animal---

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The side gash is fairly consistent to the twist so maybe encountered in the beginning of the penetration.

This is one "of those things".

If one is using a solid, the normal thing is to look very deep to find it.

I don't know a single instance where someone (at least not me) would look and closely examinate the proximity of the entry area.

Pyzda

quote:

Interesting, I never had a Woodleigh RN do that! Sorry Michael I couldn't resist.

Damned Smart Ass!


Hi 465! Kidding of course, before someone thinks us serious! LOL..................


This is an excellent example of why I did the T'Rex tests with the cinder blocks. One needs to put these bullets to extreme, but "reasonable" stress tests. As we see, most anything can happen in the field, explained or not, it is what it is. Bullet went through this stress test, with success, and continued it's mission. We will never know the exact scenario, can only guess, but to me, it is good, and shows what can happen in the field. 9 out of 10 will never see this much stress, as 465 mentions, some of his #13s went through hell, and came out pristine, most others do as well, but every once and awhile one encounters strange, even bizarre and abnormal circumstances, like this, the bullet must be able to make it through these situations, and continue the mission at hand. T'Rex testing has shown us that a handful of our solids today can go to the extremes.

If that sounds like a promotion, it is of course, however to add to this, the North Fork and Barnes Banded FN Solid can do the same as well. Barnes of course are traitors, and I do not support them. I doubt their new improved RN version will make it through a T'Rex test, and no, I won't pollute my barrels with such "Garbage". So, it's BBW#13s and North Forks that can make it through the tough stuff, and continue the mission--End Of Story.

Michael

Michael,

The overriding conclusion I get from looking at that deformed bullet is that yes, it encountered something "extreme" but it did the job and did it well regardless. Full penetration of an elephant cow from stem to stern, even after encountering whatever caused the deformity.

Personally, I also think it's a good example of using enough gun. How would a .375 RN have faired? Go back to that hunt report by Randy Martin where he used the 350gr. RN Woodleigh in a 375H&H. He hit the ele right on the shoulder in the correct spot but somehow that bullet didn't penetrate the vitals and they spent some amount of time tracking it. By all accounts, that ele should have been dead on the spot. It turned out successful in the end but it all goes to show that strange things do happen to bullets and if you're right on the edge in terms of performance, there isn't much margin for "strange things" to work out favorably.

Going back to my original post on this thread, I had mentioned in my hunt report that the CEBs were devastating on everything I shot. That certainly is the case. That .585 Non-Con that took the buffalo performed awesomely. Point of the shoulder entry to recovery under the skin near the anus on a mature buff with an "expanding" bullet seems pretty impressive to me. And the recovered petals from the lion! The cat didn't move from the spot where he tumbled into the sand river. Insides were mush!

When I saw those pictures of the engraved bullets I thought there goes the bore on that expensive rifle.

I had a brass bullet do this when it hit the teeth of a wart hog when I did a frontal shot. Teeth are very hard and chew up bullets. I friend shot a buffalo in the head with a 550 grain A Square mono solid out of a 450 Dakota. The bullet hit the teeth going in and never made it past them. Kind of like shooting into gravel.

As to shootaway's comment of ruining rifling I don't see where he is coming from. I'd rather run narrow brass bands down a barrel than a steel jacketed bullet.

I wonder too,how this issue was not detected earlier? A patch down the bore would have indicated that the bore was very tight if that was the case or stiff bullet seating etc...

quote:

When I saw those pictures of the engraved bullets I thought there goes the bore on that expensive rifle.

And Yet I have rifles here that have had literally 1000s of those same brass bullets down the bore
and every single one of them shoot groups in one hole at 50 yards, time after time, after time again.

Yep, there goes the bore!

quote:

Personally, I also think it's a good example of using enough gun.

I absolutely CONCUR with that. I have zero doubt about that being a major part of the
entire equation--Caliber makes a big difference, as long as you are running a proper
bullet. Naturally I would not even consider a 375 anything for this sort of work as
we all know.

Yes, NonCons are wicked to say the least, lots of trauma, lots of penetration, and lots of damage
inflicted. I just spoke to my buddy returning from Zim where he shot 2 buffalo, croc, hippo, and hyena with 50 B&M and the 450 #13 NonCons, and from what he says, devastating. Enough of us have seen what they do in the field now and it is pretty damned impressive.

Ya'll have a great Thanksgiving!

M