I was reading Will's grandpa's book "African Rifles and Cartridges" and saw the chart where he lists the Standard Diameters of British Bullets and for the .404 he lists .411, not .423.

Can anyone (ALF) elaborate on what this is referring to?

_BAxter

Cut Pondoro some slack, he was probably out in the bush with the natives, naked except for his turban, and a bit distracted when he wrote that.

The only standard for 404 Jeffery that I know of is CIP.
They are kind of screwy.
Revision of May 15, 2002:

Projectile diameter "G1" = 10.72 mm = 0.4220"

Barrel:
F (bore) = 10.46 mm = 0.4118"
Z (groove) = 10.62 mm = 10.62 mm = 0.4181"
u (twist) = 420.00 = 16.5"

Go figure: Typos?

Alf can supply the specs from 1905.

Modern bullets this side of the pond are mostly 0.423" diameter.
Krieger barrels are 0.424" groove.
Pac-Nor barrels: 0.423"
Lothar Walther: 0.423"
McGowen: 0.425" max or .4245" slugged by one gunsmith I know.

Some Barnes TSX bullets in 404 Jeffery have been measured at .421".
I can vouch for .423" bullets working well in .4245" barrels.
400-grainers at 2401 fps, 380-grainers at 2526 fps, 340-grainers at 2706 fps, all accurate in my 24" long,1:10" twist McGowen, with Varget.
CZ used 25" long 1:10" twist McGowen barrels on their factory rifles.

The .421" bullets might work well in .423" barrels. I have not tried those.

It is a shame that there is this confusion surrounding specs of the granddaddy of all bolt action DG rifles.

There is no such confusion regarding the ".375/404 Jeffery Saeed" of 2012.
That is the most perfect rifle hunting cartridge of all time.

He was most likely confused with the 450-400 NE calibre for single shot and double rifles, which was the basis of the 404 Jeffery for bolt action rifles. The 450-400 NE (3" or 3.25") used a .411 diameter bullet in some rifles, as well as .410 and .408. Make sure to have that expensive vintage English double slugged to determine the correct bullet diameter.

CIP lists the bore and groove dimensions of the 404 as 10.46mm and 10.62mm. This translates to 0.4118" and 0.4181"

In "African Dangerous Game Cartridges", Pierre Van Der Walt mentions the wide diversity of bore/groove diameters employed by the variety of early manufacturers and puts the groove diameter at 0.424" (10.77mm).

The forerunner of the 404 Jeffery, the 10.75x73, was at a bore/groove diameter of 10.46mm/10.77mm (0.4118mm/0.4232")

The twist is 1:420mm (1:16.53")

The safe route with an older rifle is always to measure the bore/groove/twist and be sure what you have. Bullets can then be used/made to suit.

Many cartridge names are just that, names. They have little technical connection to the actual dimensions. The 404 is one of those.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

... The forerunner of the 404 Jeffery, the 10.75x73, was at a bore/groove diameter of 10.46mm/10.77mm (0.4118mm/0.4232")...

Firstly: 10.77mm = 0.4240", not 0.4232"

Secondly:
Groan!
Another which came first ...
Some would argue that the 10.75x73 is the German copy of the older 404 Jeffery of 1905.
I would be one of those after education by Alf.

Check out the different 10.75 x 68 in CIP, pure German pedigree I do believe:

Bullet: 10.78 mm = 0.4244"
Bore: 10.45 mm = 0.4114"
Groove: 10.75 mm = 0.4232"
Twist: 420.00 mm = 16.54" (If you want the second decimal on the inches, it is not 16.53".)


This is very good advice:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

The safe route with an older rifle is always to measure the bore/groove/twist and be sure what you have. Bullets can then be used/made to suit.

Many cartridge names are just that, names. They have little technical connection to the actual dimensions. The 404 is one of those.

There is no such uncertainty about the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012, best rifle hunting cartridge ever, aka 375-2012.
That is not a telephone number.

My Type A Oberndorf Mauser sporter was originally a 10.75x68 and has the barrel dimensions of 10.45 and 10.75 stamped under the chamber area of the barrel i.e. the bore diameter across the lands is 10.45mm/.411" and the bullet diameter across the grooves is 10.75mm/.423".

I imagine that the same barrels and dimensions were used by Mauser for the 10.75x73 aka .404 Jeffery.

There has been plenty of debate in other posts as to the significance of the .404 label for this cartridge. There is some commonality in thoughts, backed by early catalogue advertising by Jeffery, that the .404 refers to a .40cal cartridge with 4 cartridges fitting in the Jeffery Mausers (one up and 3 down). The Mauser made 10.75x73s also held 4 cartridges.

The 450/400 Jeffery, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery and 425 Westley Richards cartridges are all known as being in the 40cal group of big game cartridges with the 425WR having the largest diameter bullet of .435".

Taylor, like others, got confused at times when writing of various cartridges and sometimes referred to the bore size as the bullet diameter. It must have been tough after a day slaying elephants and various other animals that crossed his path, to sit down and write up notes about your exploits that would eventually find their way into the magazines and books of the times.

Thanks for the info guys, I thought about the lands, but he also lists a .423 caliber. Apparently he had a bit too much Jamison's as he wrote that section.

The original 404 as submitted by Eley to the Birmingham Proof House had a .422 cal bullet and not .423 as we have it now.

The British Standard as determined in London in 1913 also called for a .422 cal bullet.

There is as I have shown in the past a mystery cartridge out there, presumed to bear out the notion that Jeffery tried to emulate the success of his 450-400 in bolt gun, hence the 404 jeffery.

This cartridge was a turned down 450-400 in cal .409 that possibly was the forerunner for the 404. It had a large cap Primer, had the 450-400 HS and .409 bullet of the 450-400 but looked like a 404 Jeffery. No rifles for this cartridge exists ?

As to the origens of the 10,75 caliber:

? 1890 or thereabouts. Based on the Mauser BM casehead "Mauser Boden" of the 11.15 x 60 R for the M 71 Mauser rifle.

The 10,75 x47 R based on the MB case was the earliest known true 10,75 produced by Utendorffer in Nurmberg as a target round for target guns in both Germany and Austria, other 10,75's followed such as the 10,75 x 57 Mannlicher based on the M88 Case in 1905, the same time as the 404 Jeffery.

Mauser's 10,75 x 68 is based on the Mauser G case and only came about in 1909 ?

Jeffery's rifles were all originally built on Mauser barreled actions and the specs for these barrels showed a bore of 10.45mm ( .411) and groove of 10.75mm (.423)

So the bore diameter of the 404 was .411....... so African rifles and cartridges is correct....... remember bore is defined as the diameter of the hole drilled in the barrel before the grooves are cut.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So the bore diameter of the 404 was .411....... so African rifles and cartridges is correct....... remember bore is defined as the diameter of the hole drilled in the barrel before the grooves are cut.

Not quite correct about the book AR&C. Taylor in "African Rifles and Cartridges" tabled 'Standard Diameters of all British Bullets (Unfired)' where he lists the .423" (10.75mm) as .423" (this is the 10.75x68) and the .404 as .411".
He makes very little, or no reference, to bore or groove diameters of any of the cartridges in his book.

quote:

This cartridge was a turned down 450-400 in cal .409 that possibly was the forerunner for the 404. It had a large cap Primer, had the 450-400 HS and .409 bullet of the 450-400 but looked like a 404 Jeffery. No rifles for this cartridge exists ?

Sounds a bit like the 420 Webley Magnum.
No book I have has a bullet diameter but in the Winfer Webley/Kynoch book it looks much like a 425 Westley Richards with a full width rim.
They do note a 400gr bullet though and it was in the 1914 Webley catalog.
I love my 404 and 425WR, but I must admit, a 425 with a "normal" base like a 404 would be a cool mix of both. Maybe that is just what Webley was thinking too.

If I remember Alfs postings correctly the rare predecessor of the 404 was a de rimmed rebated 450/400 3" Jeffery altered it to be what it is today.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
If I remember Alfs postings correctly the rare predecessor of the 404 was a de rimmed rebated 450/400 3" Jeffery altered it to be what it is today.

Yes according to Alf's information Jeffery experimented with a derimmed 450/400 3" shortened to fit the standard M98 action. The .404 was born with a case shortened by 3mm from the 3" 'parent' and with the bullet diameter increased to .423 to maintain the same pressure as the 'parent' cartridge. A rather involved way of creating another cartridge but the English seemed obsessed with keeping pressures low.

With the cordite powder of the day and the fact that Jeffery only had the opened up standard length Mauser action to work with in the early years (something Mauser did not recommend) I suppose it was probably quite prudent to follow this path despite the fact that an odd calibre bullet had to be made to suit.

All correct, but the .404 was not standardized for a long time, and other gunmakers created their own versions with alternate measurements. I have a .418 and a .419, have heard of a .416. Kynoch at one time provided cartridges for .418.
My .418 is a bit hard on the shoulder when firing the .423 bullets!!

every english or german 404 that i have slugged the bore on was .422 to .423
...there is some discrepency in the 450-400-3"s and the 450-400-3.25"

I have shot .423 bullets in every 404 i have owned. 450-400s have miced .408 to .411 but .410 bullets seem to work in all of them..best to slug the bore, but also try the different bullet sizes within reason or withen a couple of thousands to find your best accuracy as wear can be a issue also..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
every english or german 404 that i have slugged the bore on was .422 to .423
...

It's safe to assume that you haven't slugged a great many of them, then. I've seen Cogswells as low down as .417, a William Evans at .420, as well as a couple of inbetweens, in addition to the "normal" .422-.423. In my humble opinion, it is critical to slug the bores of Enlish .404's, and the older ones especially, as they may have wildly differing bore diameters. The Jeffery-made .404's I've handled have all seemed to be rather OK, though. Cannot offer an explanation.