In general, the 458 Lott has taken several years to get popular, but it surely is that now. With advent of Hornady producing commercial ammo and the likes of Winchester, CZ and Ruger chambering this cartridge in their factory rifles, it is now being used extensively.

My question is will the 470 Capstick ever catch on this way? I know Winchester chambers it in their custom shop, but thats about it.

On paper, it looks very impressive, being more powerful than the Lott, plus opening up a bigger hole. It must be more impressive than the 458 Lott and 470 NE on game and it is easily confined in a turnbolt. Does anyone here use this chamber? And do you believe it will ever grow in popularity such as the Lott did?

Thoughts please?

rossi

I see Mix3006's discussion on the ZKK 602 deals with the Capstick. Sorry I didn't read it first before posting the question. However, I would still be most interested on it's field performance.

It'll never ever be nearly as popular as the 458 lott, and I doubt it'll ever become a true factory round. Firstly, .475" componets are less common. Lastly, a belted round in a magazine rifle is not a replacement for a 470 NE in a double rifle.

The Lott chambers 458 win mag ammo in a bind, which is one of the big reasons it is so popular. It was also quite popular even when it was still a cat.

In short, if a the 458 lott seems somehow lacking, then folks will jump past the 47 cal, and move right on to the 50's and bigger.

rossi,

I have a Winchester Model 70 .470 Capstick (it's the one in the photo in my signature).

Paul's post is dead-on; the dearth and higher price of .475" components mitigate against the .470 Capstick's acceptance.
Also, there is no cartridge you can just rechamber from, as with the .458 Win. Mag.-to-.458 Lott conversion.

The .470 Capstick is a surefire killer; it's everything the Lott is, with a bit more bullet diameter. The buff in the photo below certainly showed a much greater reaction to the .475"/500gr. bullets hitting than it did to the .375"/300gr. bullets.

I don't mind spending more to have something different, but if cost is a factor, the Lott is a more economical choice.

George

Rossi;on paper the 470 Capstick does have the edge over the 458 Lott and 470 Nitro,in regards to on field performance,I would imagine nobody would notice the difference.It all comes down to what gets you going.I think that .475 components aren't hard to get at all,if we can get them here,you can get them anywhere.

Thanks for the input, the Lott certainly owes a bit to the 458 Win. I guess my thoughts were somewhat curious as to why more PHs (who load their own ammo) do not choose the Capstick. The 470 NE, while undoubtably and excellent DG chamber, appears by far to cost more in componentry (i.e., double gun, brass, etc.) and does not generate the energy the Capstick does.

Points well taken as to why the Lott will remain much more popular. The Capstick however still looks quite impressive and 375 H&H brass abounds everywhere.

quote:

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Originally posted by rossi:
In general, the 458 Lott has taken several years to get popular, but it surely is that now. With advent of Hornady producing commercial ammo and the likes of Winchester, CZ and Ruger chambering this cartridge in their factory rifles, it is now being used extensively.

My question is will the 470 Capstick ever catch on this way?
rossi

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IMO, though the 470 Capstick is a very capable round, it will never be as popular as the 458LOTT. The reason is, #1 lack of availability of good factory ammo, #2 No factory factory rifles being chambered for it, and #3 because, in my experience, folks who get into bullets that big, usually will opt for a double rifle, in one of the classic cartridges, like a 470NE, or 500NE. I, personally, would far rather use a 458 LOTT, in a CRF bolt rifle, or a 470NE in a double, than to mess with the building, and loading of a the 470 Capstick rifle.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying anything against the 470 Capstick's ability to down game, just that it is't worth the trouble, to me, and I suspect, to most DGR users!

quote:

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Originally posted by MacD37:
I, personally, would far rather use a 458 LOTT, in a CRF bolt rifle, or a 470NE in a double, than to mess with the building, and loading of a the 470 Capstick rifle.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying anything against the 470 Capstick's ability to down game, just that it is't worth the trouble, to me, and I suspect, to most DGR users!

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Now Mac, you know that it isn't any more trouble to build and load ammunition for a .470 Capstick than it is to for a Lott. Only cheap bullets are harder to come by.

I will agree, though, that if a .458 Lott isn't 'enough gun', most folks tend to go directly to one of the .500s.

George

I have to agree. I've never bothered to build a 470 Capstick and it seems kinda ho-hum. The best of the 470's is the 470 MBOGO. It is a beltless 500 a2 in 475. I've personally built two and seen it in action. It's only drawback is brass availability.-Rob

I own 2 rifles in .470 capstick and I quite like the caliber. It is a wee bit more than a .458 lott, but there is not enough difference for the game to notice. However, the .470 capstick case has a ghost shoulder which contributes to excellent accuracy in a well-built rifle. In contrast, I have had difficulty getting good grousp with the Lott which I attribute to the straight taper case. Nonetheless, for most people the .458 Lott is much more practical than the 470 capstick.

Example group:

Have to agree with Paul H and others that the Lott suffices and that if more is deemed to be necessary the next stop is the .500 class.

My Lott has been effective but not overwhelmingly so, as compared with my .375 in point of fact. A .470 would not, IMO, be dispositively better. So, I await my .500 A-Square. From 500 grains at 2,300 fps to 600 grains at 2,400. Now, that's a jump up!

I'll post pix when Ed Plummer delivers my baby within the next couple of weeks and pix of slain buffalo later--as time, funds, kids in college and opportunities permit!

Good luck on your quest for bigger and better!

the 475 is one of those times that the guys in OZ have it better than the US....

Taipan and Woodliegh are their Speer and Sierra bullets....


After seeing the 470 mbogo in the field, the only words for it are HFS and WOW, I am impressed... and thats with Rob's 585 in my hands!!!

There's just something amazing about a 500 gr barnes XLC at 2500.. high SD, high BC, and whacks like the hand of God!!

Let's be perfectly clear here... a capstick is DONE at 2300.. and I wouldn't load it that hot for every day ...

The Mbogo can top 2500, and keep going...

remember, it's an IMPROVED 416 rigby (that throws 400 at 2400) and a Larger case head (.475)....

jeffe

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:
After seeing the 470 mbogo in the field, the only words for it are HFS and WOW, I am impressed... and thats with Rob's 585 in my hands!!!

There's just something amazing about a 500 gr barnes XLC at 2500.. high SD, high BC, and whacks like the hand of God!!

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I pretty much had my heart set on a 500 A-square but ended up with a 470 Mbogo because Dave convinced me. He let me try his 470 Mbogo and 500 A-square, and I was sold.

Arbitrarily jumping from .458 to .500 is not always the wisest choice. The 470 Mbogo is definitely a more shootable round than the 500 A2 and seems to be very comparable in terms of terminal ballistics. They are both wildcats, so the only real advantage for the 500 A2 is brass availability. In terms of other reloading components, its easier to obtain .475 bullets, etc, in Canada.

Cheers,
Canuck

The 470 Mbogo can generate at least 200 fps more velocity than the Capstick, but at the price of a larger, longer and heavier action. For some that is not an issue, but others prefer a standard sized action like a Model 70 or Model 98 which are really not suitable for the 470 Mbogo conversion.

The 500 A2 is another excellent cartgridge, but both the 470 Mbogo and 500 A2 are really in a different class than the 470 Capstick and 458 Lott in my opinion. To make that point clear, I consider the 470 capstick and 458 lott to be very fine killers, while the 470 mbogo (loaded up) and the 500 A2 would be stompers.

500grains,

I think you hit the point I set out for. Without going through to many extremes and using a typical 3-11/16" length magnum action, with its standard .532 bolt face, rails, etc., the 470 Capstick is as easy to put together as the 458 Lott, the 375 H&H, the 416 Rem Mag, etc.

I realize the power inherent to the 470 Mbogo, but talk about nonstandard components and specialization. That was the main hangup for some to not even consider the 470 Capstick. I would say a Capstick is in the mainstream of components when compared to the likes of the Mbogo. That is why I posed the question as to the likliness of it ever being commercialized

A-Square lists a factory load for the 470 Capstick with 500 grain solid at 2,400 fps, yielding 6,400 ft-lbs of ME. That simply stomps a Federal factory loaded 470 NE into the ground, which yields the magic 2,150 fps and 5,130 ft-lbs.

It is the commercial 470 NE as a standard I am comparing the Capstick with. It is a simple wildcat (brass would never be an issue), I think it has plenty of commercial merit if ammo and rifles were turned out, but again I may be totaly wrong.

rossi

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Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

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Originally posted by MacD37:
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying anything against the 470 Capstick's ability to down game, just that it is't worth the trouble, to me, and I suspect, to most DGR users!

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Now Mac, you know that it isn't any more trouble to build and load ammunition for a .470 Capstick than it is to for a Lott. Only cheap bullets are harder to come by.


George

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George, I'd have to say it is a lot more trouble to find componants, and load the 470 Capstick, than to simply buy factory ammo for the 458 LOTT

I find that most, who hunt anything that a 470 Capstick would be the best choice of cartridge, tend buy factory ammo for their hunting, if it is available. The Lott is, and the Capstick is not! Whot cha thank?

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I find that most, who hunt anything that a 470 Capstick would be the best choice of cartridge, tend buy factory ammo for their hunting, if it is available.

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You are kidding, right?

The PH's I talk to see very little factory ammo showing up in their camps these days. The vast majority of people are bringing reloads. But that is not a scientific survey...

quote:

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Originally posted by MacD37:
I find that most, who hunt anything that a 470 Capstick would be the best choice of cartridge, tend buy factory ammo for their hunting, if it is available. The Lott is, and the Capstick is not! Whot cha thank?

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Factory ammo? What's that?

George

FWIW, I was not comparing the 470 Mbogo to the 470 Capstick. My comments were for those that said that most people that want to go up from the 458 Lott, will jump right to the .500's. I was just saying that if someone was to take a big jump up from the 458 Lott, there is a lot of good reason to stop at the 470 Mbogo instead of going straight to something like the 500 A2. Pretty much everything in that class requires a big action and specialized components.

The 470 Capstick's advantages have been documented well by others here already, and it has also been agreed that it is not really a big step up from the Lott.

Cheers,
Canuck

Even though PHC was a legend in his own time, the cartridge named after him does not have that indefinable panache that the Lott does. I know, that sounds silly because "everyone" knows that to have true style you have to have the initials NE after the caliber but FWIW, the Lott has become a storied loading, like the .375, et al. without any of the bad press the Win got. The Capstick doesn't have it and is unlikely get it in the forseeable future. Rarer wildcats have more paper energy and some have shown, to some hunters, more definite impact on game. For the chappie who isn't an amateur ballistician, though, the more common cartridges that do a sufficient job are preferable. The Lott is common, now, and gets on with the job so it is and will be more popular. The 500A/2, the Mbogo, the 1.008 Vincent are toys for people who shoot firstly and then go hunting. God forbid that they should go hunting you, they get really good at shooting! Common cartridges are for the Common Man, IMO, may his tribe increase.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

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I find that most, who hunt anything that a 470 Capstick would be the best choice of cartridge, tend buy factory ammo for their hunting, if it is available.

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You are kidding, right?

The PH's I talk to see very little factory ammo showing up in their camps these days. The vast majority of people are bringing reloads. But that is not a scientific survey...

---

500Grains, No I'm not kidding! However I didn't make myself quite clear. In my mind, anyone attracted to the 470 Capstick, would compare it to the 470NE, not the Lott! Most folks who can afford to hunt elephant and use a 470NE double rifle either use factory ammo, or have someone like SUPERIOR load it for them. Most of the rifles in the 470 up range of cartridges, shoot double rifles, and only about 1/3 of those who hunt with large bore double rifle handload for them. Most have tried to load for them, but give up in disgust, and buy factory, or have someone else do it! That is what I meant by the quote you posted above! I can guarintee you, Federal wouldn't load 470NE long if everyone loaded it themselves!

I too handload everything I shoot, unless I find I have to use factory, because of loss of ammo, or lack of time.

In any event, the 470 Capstick is a "dead in the water" wildcat, that will have few shooters, while the now factory 458 LOTT will steadily gain in popularity!
The Capstick would have gained more following if, Capstick had embraced it, and started useing it in his films, and talked it up in his late books. The fact is Capstick did not like hard kicking rifles, and chose to use the 375 H&H Mauser for 99% of his hunting.

quote:

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Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE] The fact is Capstick did not like hard kicking rifles, and chose to use the 375 H&H Mauser for 99% of his hunting.

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And that, if anything, should indicate just how much honest good sense the man had. He was a story-telling hunter, not a number crunching shooter. My kind of guy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Oldsarge:
The Lott is common, now, and gets on with the job so it is and will be more popular. The 500A/2, the Mbogo, the 1.008 Vincent are toys for people who shoot firstly and then go hunting.

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Hmm, Sarge, I've been told i've been a bit snappy of late, so I'll ask if my hide has been pierced on this?

It's MY opinion that everyone that chooses to hunt should damn well better an excellent practiced shot, that has spent hours at the range and in the field, working and training with his/her rifle.


Not to include you with the masses, yet the common man shoots a 270, think's a 30-06 kicks, a 338 isa monster, and "whaddaya mean, I've been shooting this same box of shells for3 years

Now, back to the subject, other than .017", there's no appreciable difference in the lott and capstock.. both are 500 grains at a nominal 2300... and both far out perform the 470 NE n ME...2100....

if 200 fps faster than the 470 NE is good, then 200 fps faster than that must be bad-to-the-bone.. and have a far greater range...

no critter would know the difference in being hit with a lott or a capstick...

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no critter would know the difference in being hit with a lott or a capstick...

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I suspect that's true regardless of which end of the muzzle you was sitting on.

Quote
The 500A/2, the Mbogo, the 1.008 Vincent are toys for people who shoot firstly and then go hunting. God forbid that they should go hunting you, they get really good at shooting! Common cartridges are for the Common Man, IMO, may his tribe increase.

I think that there are a lot of really good hunters that shoot cartridges of the 500 A2, 470 Mbogo class and don't really think a lot aboout it. Given the chance to hunt Buffalo again mine would be there in a flash. They are definately not toys just for shooting fun they are tools of the hunter.
Take care,
Dave

Mac are you saying that only 1/3 of the guys who hunt elephant reload, while the other 2/3 use factory ammo? Perhaps, but that breakdown would not hold true for safaris in general. It is certainly the case that most inexperienced hunters use factory ammo. As for fellows having trouble getting reloads to regulate in their doubles, it doesn't take much skill - just persistence.

quote:

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no critter would know the difference in being hit with a lott or a capstick...

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I think that's what I was trying to get at. Sorry, I've been trying to model "graceful" writing to my students for the last couple of days and now I'm having a hard time being straight-forward. Of course, we should spend a lot of time at the range before we go hunting and this lot does. Even among Africa hands, though, I have a sneaking suspician that this forum is inhabited by ladies and gentlemen of rather greater sophistication in all branches of the hunt than most. We are the ones who can and do appreciate the more esoteric calibers. Otherwise, whythehell would I bother to mess with my sweet .318? But look at the same handles showing up over and over again, giving to each appropriate due because of the years of safari they've been on. We are, sadly, a tiny minority. A few of us will have great fun debating the miniscule differences in the particular round we favor, but the fun is in the debate. Practicality? Just get a Lott. Experiment and discussion? Let the games begin!

The 475's biggest drawback is it is not .458 calibre.

I agree with 0ldsarge on the shooter buying a toy to hunt with as opposed to the hunter who buys a tool.

Toy being described as 'the more advanced option for the enthusiast' to avoid offence.

Despite the current fasion of extolling The 458 lott over the 458 win mag I think the Lott is also slightly into the toy category .

Otherwise it should have squashed the 458 win by now.

Karl.

Karl,

I'd bet of new gun sales, the 458 Lott leads the 458 win mag.

That said, very few of the folks buying the big 45's, at least in the states, use them for hunting. Most of purchased for the bragging rights of look how big my rifle is.

I also think the majority of hard core hunters that pick a rifle as a tool, are probably looking at a 375 or a 416.

Paul,

We are lucky in Australia that our varmints are white tail deer size

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac are you saying that only 1/3 of the guys who hunt elephant reload, while the other 2/3 use factory ammo? <<SNIP>> As for fellows having trouble getting reloads to regulate in their doubles, it doesn't take much skill - just persistence.

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500Grains, Again, that is not what I said! You, or I one, are haveing trouble getting on target, and It is probably me!

I said that most who compare the very large rounds like the 470 Capstick, will compare it to the 470 NE, more than to the LOTT. That being said, most who hunt with double rifles of that size, and chambered for a round that is available in factory form, when hunting ELEPHANT, most often choose factory ammo,or have someone like SUPERIOR, load it for them, especially the 470NE, for the hunt!

This forum on AR is unique, in that we have here some of the most knowledgable hunters, and riflemen in the world. But one has only to visit some of the other websites to see how many long term hunters do not fully understand the rifles they use. Amoung these REAL WORLD hunters, most couldn't tell you how to work up a load for a double rifle if it meant their lives. In fact it is these, so-called, RIFLEMAN,who are constantly reading the numbers in balistics books, who are so perplexed by the double rifle. I have bought several double rifles, at bargain prices, because the owners thought something was wrong with them, because he simply did not know how to load for it, and factory ammo was not available! Most of those owners could quote the balistics and velocities, of every long range cartridge in existance. They get them from books, and think those numbers mean something on large dangerous game. The fact is, as someone already stated, a Cape Buffalo wouldn't know the difference between a 450/400, 500/450, 470NE, 458 lott, or 470 Capstick when hit in the same place. If any one of those doesn't do the trick,you have placed the bullet in the wrong place, plain and simple. When useing a 470NE, or a 470Cap, if the 470NE doesn't do it, the 300 fps more of the Capstick is not what you need, you need a larger diamether bullet, not more speed!

In any event, the 470 capstick will be around for a long time simply because of it's name, and the fact that it is a 470, which every amateur in the world has read about, in every hunting gun rag in the world. However, it will never be a factory round, or be chambered in anything but a few custom rifles. The numbers of owners of 470 Capstick rifles will be so small, as to be a rarity on any fireing range, and even rarer in the hunting fields of the world.

Wildcats stay around indefinitely, because they do not have to depend on sales volume to remain in exsistence, and no company is going to spend a pile of money developeing a rifle, and ammo that will only sell 20 units per year!

The above is only my opinion, and is worth exactly what you are paying for it! However, it is no cheaper, the all the others on this forum!

Mac, I am not trying to ruffle any feathers - just trying to see where you are coming from on the statement about factory ammo. Of the 4 people I know of who hunted elephant in 2004 including myself, all 4 used reloads. Of course that is probably not a representative group of elephant safaris.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac, I am not trying to ruffle any feathers - just trying to see where you are coming from on the statement about factory ammo. Of the 4 people I know of who hunted elephant in 2004 including myself, all 4 used reloads. Of course that is probably not a representative group of elephant safaris.

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If I had been there there would have benn "5" who used handloads, and like the rest of you I would have been scrambeling around in the weeds looking for my brass. However I know many folks who simply kisk the Federal nickle plated brass in the weeds, and leave it there, because the simply buy more at home, already loaded, for $220 dollars per 20 rounds! Must be nice!

There is a suprising number of people who use factory ammo and often in rifles like Wby, Sauer, Blaser.

They often seem to be shooters with little knowledge on guns and price of rifle and ammo indicates quality.

I am often amazed that the Australian agent for Wby even keeps factory ammo, even for that little 224.

Mike

If you can afford an ele hunt, what's $10 a pop for ammo?

Yup, must be nice.

Regarding the cost of shooting the .470 Capstick I have found it to be cheaper to shoot than almost any big bore. Nobody has mentioned the use of Hornady's 400gr .475 XTP pistol bullets. At $22.49 for 50 (I have found them even cheaper) This makes for an excellent practice bullet. This was one of the reasons I choose the Capstick. True the 458 may be even cheaper yet, but its only a matter of a few dollars per 50 rds. The brass seems to last forever loaded at lower pressures. But if I had to choose a 458, it would be the Ackley anyday over the Lott.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac, I am not trying to ruffle any feathers - .

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Question, to anyone willing to respond:

Is there something about the way I write that makes people think I'm angry? This seems to pop up often, about posts where I'm not angry, at all! Maybe it is my dirrect way of writeing, I don't know, but if any of you do know I wish you would tell me! Anyone who knows me personally, will tell you I kid a lot when talking to people I know, and maybe that is taken as anger, in the written word! ??????
Anyway, it puzzels me!

quote:

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Question, to anyone willing to respond:

Is there something about the way I write that makes people think I'm angry?

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MAC,

To be direct, I think the answer is yes. But, you are not the only one. There are about a half dozen other regulars that are quite good at "ruffling feathers", 500grains being one of them (I only mention him in particular cuz he is what led you to post your question). It really isn't any wonder that you ruffle each other's feathers.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that "you guys" can't be as angry as you sound, or the hypertension would have knocked you all off by now. So I don't read the anger into it anymore, and when I get e-mailed off line about it by newbies (this happens pretty often BTW), I tell them not to be offended by it and give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. Body language is a big part of human communication and you just can't get it over the internet.

Cheers,
Canuck

You go, Canuck! Until the day that the web connects a collection of realtime webcams that record what you said complete with facial expressions, this will continue to be a problem. Perhaps if we all threw in more "smilies" we'd be smilier?

quote:

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Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

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Question, to anyone willing to respond:

Is there something about the way I write that makes people think I'm angry?

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MAC,

To be direct, I think the answer is yes. But, you are not the only one. There are about a half dozen other regulars that are quite good at "ruffling feathers", 500grains being one of them (I only mention him in particular cuz he is what led you to post your question). It really isn't any wonder that you ruffle each other's feathers.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that "you guys" can't be as angry as you sound, or the hypertension would have knocked you all off by now. So I don't read the anger into it anymore, and when I get e-mailed off line about it by newbies (this happens pretty often BTW), I tell them not to be offended by it and give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. Body language is a big part of human communication and you just can't get it over the internet.

Cheers,
Canuck

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Canuck, Thank you for an up front, and honest answer! I truley appreciate it!