quote:

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Originally posted by Oldsarge:
You go, Canuck!

Perhaps if we all threw in more "smilies" we'd be smilier?

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Oldsarge, I get in a hurry when posting, and too often forget the little DIM-WIT grins, and rolling eyes. Sorry if my postings have ruffled any hair-do's, I assure you it wasn't intentional! BYE!!!!!!!!!

Mac,

It seems it is always hard to look behind the words on the screen. Sometimes we read things into a post that are not there, and sometimes we miss things. For example, when I read Canuck's post, I completely missed the fact that he is freezing his chestnuts off in those -40 degree Canadian winter temperatures.

Best wishes and don't let the elephants step on your brass.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Sometimes we read things into a post that are not there, and sometimes we miss things. For example, when I read Canuck's post, I completely missed the fact that he is freezing his chestnuts off in those -40 degree Canadian winter temperatures.

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Now, that's good!

Cheers,
Canuck

The problem with the forum is that there is the time gap and that allows you to fry and blood boil. Also, you are virtually writing in isolation rather than stating or offering opinions in the presence of others.

I have been on the new AR chat rooms a few times and it is very different as is everything is happening "now"

Mike

Rob wrote:
posted 14 January 2005 03:17
I have to agree. I've never bothered to build a 470 Capstick and it seems kinda ho-hum. The best of the 470's is the 470 MBOGO. It is a beltless 500 a2 in 475. I've personally built two and seen it in action. It's only drawback is brass availability.-Rob

Hi Rob,
I talked with Neal and he said the fellow that bought all of Mast Technologies equipment has it up and runnning now so brass won't be a problem very soon. I just sent off a few details from some Mast cylindrical brass and am just waiting for a reply. I think this will make Quality Cartridge happy as well.
Take good care,
Dave

Now that is good news, especially for the double rifle shooters and the db wannabees. And here we were all worried about nothing.

XIII: Thou shalt not fear the Worst because the Worst doesn't happen.

quote:

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Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
...the fellow that bought all of Mast Technologies equipment has it up and runnning now so brass won't be a problem very soon. I just sent off a few details from some Mast cylindrical brass and am just waiting for a reply. I think this will make Quality Cartridge happy as well.

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Great news! Thanks Dave.

Cheers,
Canuck

The fellow who bought the MAST/BeLL machinery:

Marc Jamison, President of

Jamison International V LLC
3551 Mayer Avenue
Sturgis, SD 57785
Phone: 605/347-5090
Fax: 605/347-4704
jamisonintl@rushmore.com

It will be good news if he gets the MAST/BeLL products going again with a Jamison headstamp.

He is making brass for Dakota Arms and for the .408 Chey-Tac too.

I met him a few months ago and got a tour around his factory. I asked about things like .404 Jeffery basic and .416 Rigby basic, and all the old BeLL stuff. He had no immediate plans to offer these, but said that he might be able to in the future.

May he live long and prosper.

quote:

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Originally posted by rossi:

My question is will the 470 Capstick ever catch on this way? I know Winchester chambers it in their custom shop, but thats about it. rossi

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I was reading Elmer Keith's book "Rifles for Large Game" published in 1946. Ol' Elmer talked about how good a dangerous game cartridge the .475 OKH was. (O'Neil, Keith, Hopkins). He went on to say it was the full length H&H belted brass blown out for .470 (.475")Nitro bullets.
I wonder where Capstick or whoever named it that got there idea??

BigRx

Elmer and friends old 475 OKH is same as
470 Capstick. Art made same case and called
it 470 Capstick, in honor of the famous African
hunter and writer. About 40 years later.
Read about OKH cartridges when I was a kid, and thought Win should make it their big game gun
then, instead of what they did. Think of the tens of thousands of extra guns they would have sold, and would have completely sewed up the
blaster market.Great cartridge, but the Lott
is taking over, so it is being crowded out..Ed.

Ed,
I can't think of the 475 okh, without thinking of the "one better" of the 475 AM.. and the "10 better" (no belt) 470 mbogo

Besides, when I go to Dave's site, I see him and Chris, holding 470 mbogo's over a buff, grinning...

Those guys are AWESOME

jeffe

I guess I'm confused. When one person says they wouldn't load the 470 Capstick with a 500g past 2300 fps (which I accept), then you are almost required to say you wouldn't load a 458 Lott with a 500g bullet past 2200 fps. Given equal case capacity and the same weight bullet, a larger bore will push that bullet faster at the same pressure level. The 470 Capstick should have a very slight edge in killing power over the Lott, but probably not enough to notice (5%). The availability of both 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott ammo and brass is an obvious plus for the Lott. That said, I'm probably going with the 470 Capstick, something intangible about shooting a 470 ...

Chuck

Chuck
I wrote a long reply... based off the gains of the increased surface area, about 3.7%, and you take 1/4 of that increase, we'll call it about 1%, you can go 22-23fps faster at the same pressure.

this proved perfectly true with the 470AR vs 458AR
jeffe

I tend to agree with most here, if I move up very far from a Lott (although I do not have one at the present, and am buying a 450 Dakota) I would want more "whomph!" than the Capstick. That's why I have a 475 Gibbs (Royale?) planned for this spring.
Like the rest of the big bore fans here, I simply like having developed the tolerance for recoil that lets me shoot them accurately.

Slightly off-topic, but topical; my wife wants a new car. I am nudging her towards a Shelby GT500. She wants to know what she'd do with a 500 horsepower supercharged V8 Mustang. I tell her "...darn near anything you want..."

You can always download to suit, and it's much easier than uploading to suit.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I suggest the only difference in "killing power" or whatever you want to call it between the 458 Lott and the 500s or bigger is only in the mind of the beholder...much like the difference in deer shot with a .270 or a 300 Win.

The .458 Lott is already too much gun for most hunters, and the .470 Capstick is a step up.
Comercially, the .458 Lott is the biggest cart to massproduce, imo, and the advantage of fiering WinMag's in a pinch is of high value.

But I would love to see the Lott with the .470's ghost-shoulder and two-die-set....

I dont know how Bell,Taylor,Hunter,Johnson,Manners,Grobler,etc...etc ever managed to survive without the Capstick, Lott, Mbogo and the zillion other wildcats that exist for DGR. Maybe they were just lucky or maybe they just stuck whatever adequate bullet they were using in the correct place without informing the recipient what make or calibre it was!!
No Mac you do not come across as angry in your posts, just level headed and logical.That often pisses some folk off, don't know why.

pichon,

The men you mentioned hunted in a different time (certainly Bell, Taylor, and to a lesser degree, Hunter).

They spent years in the bush, not a week or three at a time. It was not unheard of for them to lose an elephant or two on occasion. However, bag limits were unheard of in Bell's day, and largely ignored by Taylor.

You also forget that they used doubles and/or the most powerful magazine rifles of the period.

Do you think that cartridge development should have ended in 1912 with the creation of the .375H&H?

George

Hi George,
in answer to your question "not at all"
My point is as follows. Manners and Johnson shot their thousands of elephants with off the shelf .375 H&H'S,Sutherland use a .577. Selby used a .416 Rigby for 40 odd years. Brian Marsh used a .458 WM for a similar period,Bell a 7mm, and I could go on. The bottom line is that the ballistic differences between the above calibres from top to bottom is quite massive yet all get the job done in the hands of a competent hunter.
Argueing whether a Capstick beats a Lott beats a Mbogo is splitting arse hairs when they are all probably quite lovely
If anyone is really confused why not PM one of the greatest living elephant hunters ( and non living )ie Richard Harland who occasionally is kind enough to post on this forum and ask him if a couple of ft/lbs either way really matter versus sticking the hole in the right place.
Having said that I believe that bigger is better to a point, but having confidence in, and being able to competently handle ones rifle has a fair weighting too.
Mbogo vs Capstick vs Lott vs.....Jumbo really doesn't give a rats...

well, i guess you know everything .. like no significant percentage of rifle owners will evr hunt elephant


or there was no need for the 375HH, as the 577, 500, 450, and 9,3x74 killed everything handily .. but someone wanted a turnbolt gun that had power...

then again WHY would anyone need a 500 jeffe or 505 gibbs, when there where doulbe equally or more powerful ...

why would anyone even CONSIDER a 375 HH turnbolt gun when the 404 jeffe, 10,75x68, and 416 rigby are superior rounds, in a turn bolt gun?

generally, a fella that claims a 375 can kill em all (odd, i don't remember taylor, bell or shelby being famous for the 375) is generally someone that has little experience with anything larger...

and, for gods sake, the 405win, 45/70 govt, and 50/90 have killed more buffalo than ALL the other rounds that have ever been in africa.... that outta count for something....

and the 30/30 kills more deer ever year than anything (except the 22LR) so it must be amazing..

and the 303 british and 8x57 -- and 6.5 and 7x57 .. killed more african game than anything larger....

yeah, but the 375 must be the best...

when actually its neither fish nor fowl, and a "big rifle" only to 45/70 fans

Dear Jeff,
not sure if you were answering my post, as much of what you wrote was, shall we say somewhat disjointed.

If however you were responding I might point out that I never mentioned the .375 H&H in association with Selby, Taylor or Bell nor did I say the said cartridge would "kill em all"

Most likely explanation is that I hit a nerve.....ouch!!

hit a nerve, or hit annoy, the results are the same... i grow weary of folks extoling the XXXXX round.. it doesn't matter WHICH one, in stating so and such round is the best and we should have stopped then... merely pulling back the layers of facts, one finds the 375 HH had plenty of BETTER stablemates to run with, not to mention the competion...

say, didn't HH come out with a 375/400, back in the day, with which to compete with the 404 jeffe??

If the brain trust at HH understood that people wanted choices (then, as well as now, in the 465HH) I fail to understand the mindset that less it better.

Hi Jeffeoso, sorry getting back so late to your post. I think your cross sectional area is off by a factor of 2, I get 7.5% greater area (Pi r2) of .470 / (Pi r2) of .458, so assuming all other things are right, it's still only 44 fps. Only real advantage is a little more frontal area, and that nice ghost shoulder ... Of course on ammo availability, the 470 Capstick loses big time.
Chuck

The question of 458 Lott or 470 Capstick is not a popularity contest.

The 470 w blown out case is alot more gun than the Lott.

I knew Jack slightly, and planned a hunt in Zambia with him before he ended his life, and he did not consider the Lott to be a dragon slayer, just more than the 458 WM.

For elephant I would much rather shoot the 470 on a blown out magnum case.

I suspect that Jack would have also.

Andy

How could this thread make so many so rubbed!

Fact #1, the 470 capstick is more powerful all things considered, and has an edge in killing power..

Fact #2 The .458 is more than powerful enough for any animal on this earth, and its a factory round..

Either is an par excellent choice, depending on your capabilities as a reloader, experiminter or if your a gun nut or a casual hunter...or if you just like one better than the other!

Thanks Ray, a voice of reason ....



Chuck

the 470 Capstick is a great round; I wrap a patch around an empty and use it as a jag for cleaning my 550 Gibbs!
As demonstrated with a loaded round last Sunday.

Seriously, the Lott, and the Capstick are about like peas in a pod. A bolt guy should probably own both.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Mac, the number of 470 Capstick owners will go up by one this winter. I'm having my CZ Safari Classic in 375 H&H rechambered for the round. Not only do I intend to take it to Africa for Cape buffalo in a few years, but I intend to elk/deer/bear hunt with it every year

Old Sarge, 30 years ago, if you got away from the big eastern cities and California, hunters were mainly after meat, horns were a bonus and the rifle was an every day tool in rural or Mountian states. Not anymore, most hunters today in the U.S. can't track, aren't good shots and barely bother to sight in their rifles. Most of them don't depend on the meat like we used to, so their guns are toys. Sad but true. I taught my sons better, they can track and are excellent shots. We get way back in to get out of the war zone here in Colorado.

458 Lott, 470 Capstick, really a preference issue in my opinion. No flies on either.

Best regards,
Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Have to agree with Paul H and others that the Lott suffices and that if more is deemed to be necessary the next stop is the .500 class.

My Lott has been effective but not overwhelmingly so, as compared with my .375 in point of fact. A .470 would not, IMO, be dispositively better. So, I await my .500 A-Square. From 500 grains at 2,300 fps to 600 grains at 2,400. Now, that's a jump up!

I'll post pix when Ed Plummer delivers my baby within the next couple of weeks and pix of slain buffalo later--as time, funds, kids in college and opportunities permit!

Good luck on your quest for bigger and better!

That sounds exactly like me. I love the .458 Lott but wanted to step up into another power range and decided on a .500 A2. The jump from a .458 Lott to a .470 Capstick isn't much of a jump IMO. The .500 A-Square's power is in another league though and it's bullet selection is better too, with the milsurp .50 BMG available. After that the next worthwhile jump for me is the .600 OK!

The coolest thing about the .470 Capstick, IMO, is that it squeezes all you can get out of the .375 H&H case and the .375 H&H cases are plentiful and cheap.

If my biggest rifle was a .375, then I might have more interest in the .470 but would probably just buy the Lott again because it is just so versatile. For a hunter/stopper/stomper trio a .375 H&H, .470 Capstick, and .550 Magnum would be tuff though.

MRLEXMA, good luck and happy hunting with your .500 A2. I can't hardly wait to get mine but I should have it before Christmas time!

It seems to me the main advantage of a 470 Capstick over the similar capacity 458's would be for elephant.

For buffalo I would rather have the vast array of soft points that will always be available in .458 caliber, but for elephant I would personally rather go up 50 grains in weight (from 450 grains to 500 grains) to a .475 monolithic FN.

500 grains said, with some authority, that the Capstick and Lott were fine cartridges, but the 470 Mbogo (loaded up) and 500 A-SQ were "stompers."

Dan, would you say that of just buffalo, or also elephant?

I have not reloaded the Capstick but the 450 Ackley is sure alot easier to reload for than a Lott.

I might be weird but I like the idea of a 500 grain .475 at 2,350 fps for elephant.


.475 North Fork FN pictured far right.

Andy

The 458 Lott can kill any animal in the world and so can alot of other rifles of large caliber. With me my lott fits me to a T. I have no dezzier for anything bigger.