To The Big Bore Group:

I have a very nice Win Classic Safari 375 H&H collecting dust in my gun safe. I picked up a nice Kimber BGR89 in 375 H&H and really have lost interest in using the Winchester. ( I offered to sell it to a buddy of mine but he's more interested in jumping homes than shooting right now so I'm thinking about what to do with it). Its of limited use right now but after rereading safari rifles again I think it would make a nice 404 Jeffery to compliment my 500 Jeffery. I know this topic has been beat to death over the years on this board but I'd like to hear about sucess stories if possible. Hear would be my plan (Keep the win factory barrel rebore it and then make the necessary mods) What I really need to know is how much gunsmithing is involved in getting this round to work. Jim Dubel got my 500 Jeffery RSM to work just fine so I trust him. Not sure how much time and money is involved? I have a Rem Big Game 416 Mag that I'll sell off to fund the conversion so I just thought I'd get some input before I talk myself into something silly.

Big Questions
1. Rebore vs New PACNOR Barrel 26"
2. 300RUM mag vs Make New Mag Box

Approximate Conversions Costs?

Thanks Brad

If you do the RUM, sell me the 375 barrel lol OR.....you can do what I would do (and what my intentions would be with that barrel)

Head down to the wildcat forum, open up the 404-375 Poor Mans 404 thread. Your rifle is about the perfect reason to do this conversion, you have another 375 (sources of brass) and this way you keep your sights and need no action work.

MHS Are you refering to this one?

Poor mans or smart mans

Would just need a rebore and neck/throat ream.

Rechamber to 404 Jeffery later if desired.

Better conversion than the 458 Win mag to 458 Lott!

458 lott 404-375, 375 HH

You will need a classic style 300 rum mag box and maybe the follower but some have used the 375 follower,

Open up the bolt face and a rebarrel

Should be able to get it done for less than 800,I would think.

Just do it.

fast

Thanks for the input thus far. I posted the same question on the 24 Camp Big Bore site and someone suggested the 400 H&H. the more I think about the 404 the more I understand why it did so well. Having the 500 Jeffery has really made me love my 416 Rigby RSM rifle a lot more. I know that in practice and on paper there is not a lot of difference between the 416 rigby and the 404 jeffery I just like the idea of having one. The Win 70 375 H&H is way too much rifle for such as medium bore round and I'm not really in love with the 458 Lott even though its a great way to go. I'm sure I'd use the 404 more than maybe my 375 or my 416 if it shot well.

Thanks Brad

Best of luck. I am a big fan of the 404/375 by the way I don't think you'd be giving up much if anything in performance, it would probably be much easier to make it feed as well.

Best of luck,

Chuck

I comverted a pushfeed .300 WinMag to .404J. It required changing the magazine box (Brownell's) and having the feedrails opened. I didn't have to open the bolt face, might have been sloppy Winchester tolerances. Dennis Olson converted it to CRF.

With it being a CRF to begin with, you might have to open the bolt face but the big thing would be the feedrail alterations. I'd opt for replacing the barrel with a PACNOR (I did).

Because the 404-375 is much better =)
If HH itself put it out it would be wildly popular right now.

I have to agree with the 404 or nothing idea. I have a Rem 416mag and when you pull the trigger there is really not much difference between a 416 400grn projectile and a 423 400grn projectile both traveling at 2400fps. The 375-404 is a GREAT way to go bigger bore if you don't have one. However, I have a 458 Lott and a 500 Jeffery. The only reason to go 404 is to get the real deal. I'm still giving it more thought.

Thanks
Brad

Thanks Brad!

Was thinking that 400 @ 2300 is about right for the 404-375 without going high pressure and in keeping with nominal 404 load velocities. Thinking of a DG hunting round and not a PG DG dual purpose unless going with lighter bullets. could it go 400@ 2400? I am sure of it but not needed since the 404 has been doing 400 @ 2300 for 100 years and much less recoil than the 458 Lott.

The 404 is a splendid nostalgia performer but the 404-375 could save you half the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
I have to agree with the 404 or nothing idea. I have a Rem 416mag and when you pull the trigger there is really not much difference between a 416 400grn projectile and a 423 400grn projectile both traveling at 2400fps. The 375-404 is a GREAT way to go bigger bore if you don't have one. However, I have a 458 Lott and a 500 Jeffery. The only reason to go 404 is to get the real deal. I'm still giving it more thought.

Thanks
Brad

Thanks for the feedback. Right now I'm getting heat from the other board post about destroying a perfectly good 375 H&H safari rifle. I think I'm going to start another post regarding using a MRC 1999 action to build a 404 on rather than destroy the Win 70. As far as the 404-375 great idea for anyone who wants to get there on a budget. More power to you

Brad

Brad,
Judge G who posts here did what you are thinking about. If I remember correctly, it worked really well.

Brad,

It is a very easy conversion. Don't rebore the factory barrel. Reboring does well on cut-rifled barrels but not so good on button rifled and hammer forged tubes.

You can get all the parts you need from the Winchester/Browning parts department in Missouri just south of St. Louis. The .375 follower works better (usually) than the RUM follower. The RUM box is very inexpensive. It is easy to get a new barrel screwed on. You can use NECG (New England Custom Guns) for a rear sight/barrel mounted recoil shoulder combination. They sell great barrel band swivel bases and front sight assemblies. Bingo, you are there. If you get Talley bases and rings, you can get a peep sight that goes onto the rear ring base. Keep it in a grip cap trap. A fiber optic front sight "bead" and a rear peep sight make for an incredibly fast and accurate sighting assembly.

As was mentioned above, $800.00 soup to nuts. It is good to start with a 375 bolt face. Again, as was mentioned above, you may not even need to have it opened up.

Good luck, no matter what you decide.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:


It is a very easy conversion. Don't rebore the factory barrel. Reboring does well on cut-rifled barrels but not so good on button rifled and hammer forged tubes....

LD

LD,

If you are reboring a rifle....why/how does the original type of manufacture make any difference?

Thanks

A 300RUM w/ a new barrel is the way I went. I would sell the 375h&h or keep it, buy a 300RUM & convert that. New 23" Pacnor, Dkaota 1/4rib, NECG front, my 42caliber varmint gun.

Fred:

Looks real nice. Do you mind if I ask how much you put into the rifle project? If I remember correctly I think it was your rifle that got me started down this crazy road in the first place. Since I said Wow that a nice looking rifle "I wonder if I took my Win 70 and ..."

Thanks Brad

Off the top of my head, all incuding installation:
Like new M70 300RUM - $600
PacNor bbl - $450
1/4 rib & sights - $400
Cross bolts - $100
swivels - $75
Blue - $125
Dec pad - $75
Scope, rings & bases - $500
Obviously I did some wheeling & dealing to get the rifle & my gunsmith is quite good w/ metal & wood at a reasonable price. I used the factory stock w/ a little shortening on the forend to save some money.
I love the rifle, it's been pretty good to me on two African trips so far. Two buffalo, one shot each w/ a finisher after they were down. Yeah, I'm sold on the 404j & 380grNFs.

quote:

If you are reboring a rifle....why/how does the original type of manufacture make any difference?

Stresses on the metal. A cut rifle barrel simply, well, cuts some metal away to form lands and grooves = no real stress.

Button rifling and hammer forging both force metal into the desired shape = lots of stresses.

When you go in and start boring and then cutting away metal, a lot of those stresses are set free in entirely unpredictable ways. That is the same reason why integral quarter ribs, barrel swivel bases and integral front sight bases all work better on a cut rifled barrel.

Some of the most accurate barrels going are button rifled, and Sako led the way in making good shooting rifles with hammer forging (I Think, Please inform me if I am ignorant on this point.) The rear and front sights are usually screwed on and/or sweated on a tube with a uniform cross section.

Danny Pederson, down in Arizona, does a lot of rifle re-boring. He also makes rifle barrels IIRC. The name of his operation is Cut Rifle Barrels. He can tell you about re-boring options and likely results much better than I can. You can also check in with the Delta Gun Shop. I believe that is where Cliff La Bounty's equipment ended up.

I hope this helps a bit. I should emphasize that this is not a go/no go sort of deal. I do get the impression that Re-boring works better with cut rifled tubes.

Good luck.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Off the top of my head, all incuding installation:
Like new M70 300RUM - $600 (Got the M70 375 +could sell off the 375 H&H Barrel)
PacNor bbl - $450- $450
1/4 rib & sights - $400 $400
Cross bolts - $100 (Already there)
swivels - $75- $75
Blue - $125 $125
Dec pad - $75 (Have a pad)
Scope, rings & bases - $500 (Got it 1.75x6)
Obviously I did some wheeling & dealing to get the rifle & my gunsmith is quite good w/ metal & wood at a reasonable price. I used the factory stock w/ a little shortening on the forend to save some money.
I love the rifle, it's been pretty good to me on two African trips so far. Two buffalo, one shot each w/ a finisher after they were down. Yeah, I'm sold on the 404j & 380grNFs.

My Math with My Win 70 Safari would be $1050 given your prices which I feel would be a great deal. Hence my original post and back to square one. I'd have to get $1200 for the 375H&H and find a 300 RUM for less than $700 to make it work going your route. Also if you don't mind tell me about the Quarter rib and the sights. Finally did your Gunsmith cut you a special deal on this project? If I could get my rifle converted for even close to what you paid I might have to kick it out of the safe ASAP.

Brownell's [QUARTER RIB BLANKS Mfr DAKOTA ARMS
Price:$74.99]?

Thanks Again

Brad

I believe Brownell's still sells the Dakota 1/4 rib. It comes in diff bbl contours but has to be machined to fit your barrel specs. The sights are from NECG, also available from Brownell's. I went w/ a single standing rear. It would only be used in a field emergency situation & is sighted for 50yds which still allows me to put accurate shots out to 100yds.

Fred:

Thanks for the addtional info. As for your Gunsmith is he availible for another 404J project or should I look elsewhere? You can PM me the info if you don't want to post it. I also was able to get a hold of Jim Dubell today he is on board if I want to go the rebore route. He states that the Win 70's rebore just fine "Metal chips out of them just like any other barrel..." He thinks with the rebore I can keep the whole project under $1000. Jim also thinks that the 375 rails will work if I can find a UM mag box.

Thanks Brad

Brad, he is here in SOCal. I have no idea what his schedule or pricing is now, but he has done four that I know of, two M70, a BBK02 & a 1909 Mauser. I can give you his e-mail. Drop my name, he does treat customer referals diff than guys off the street.

Fred & All:

Well I took the first step today and ordered a MBE-8 Ultra Mag Magazine box from Wyatts Outdoors. They told me that this box works great in the Win 70 Classics and the 404 based cartridges. After taking the rifle down from the attic a couple nights ago. I guess I really like the rifle more than I thought. I posted a picture of the Safari Express mine is the Classic safari. As much as I want to go with a new barrel and quarter rib set up I think I'll initally go with the rebore. Jim Dubell is confident that he can get it to work. This will keep the entire project under $1000. If I really like it I may either build a second rifle with a different action or drop the money and build one like Fred's. Given todays prices I would guess Fred's barrel and action work would be closer to $1500 when everything was said and done. Granted I could get some money for the 375 H&H tube but I just Trust Jim to make it work right. Also he is in the process of setting his machine up to do the rebore in house so I won't get my rifle until late summer. I still can change my mind but for know its full steam ahead with the conversion.

Thanks Brad