OK – here is the premise of this poll. I am going to add one or the other of these this year and can’t decide which one. No discussion on the weapon itself at this point – only the caliber the weapon poll will come later. If so inclined to add comments/opines on merits, virtues or detractors, please confine to just these two calibers.

Question:
1. You are only going to add one more gun to your collation and that is it…..maybe
2. It will be used in the US and Africa PG for sure and DG maybe
3. It will be limited to either a 375 H&H or .458 Win Mag - because that is what I want.
4. No discussion on the weapon itself at this point – only the caliber

Choices:
375 H&H
.458 Win Mag

 

Given your selected criteria--
the .458 doesn't have a chance against the .375.

The .458 is a fine calibre
(despite being much maligned due to bad projectiles --early on;
but a plains game rifle --it ain't)

While the .375 is clearly somewhat behind the .458 as a DG cartridge, it's adequate and will also handle long range big game hunting nicely and the .458 won't do this nearly as well.

I can guarantee you that if you're ever hunting elephant and are fortunate enough to be facing one at under 25 yards, there's no gun too big for the job.....The will scare the hell out of you.....but the winner is the one that stays cool and places the bullet correctly......and the .375 H&H will do the job nicely! I have not actually hunted them but wouldn't hesitate to take a well loaded .375 H&H after one.....

The 375 is the obvious and logical choice as already suggested by the poll results.

But there is also "what you want". I have shot a lot of kangaroos and pigs with both calibres and mainly using 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s in 456. I preferred using the 458 and I can't say I got more hits per shot fired with the 375. But if I was doing it again I would have SAAMI chambered 458 Lott because of the small freebore as that adds to flexibility with reduced loads and especially light 300 grainers.

But having said that if the rifle was to be a serious expensive gun then 375 H&H would be my choice over a 458 Win but so sure of 375 instead of 458 Lott.

375 H&Hs do provide for a nice contented feeling because just about any situation your mind dreams up the 375 H&H will be OK.

Have fun and good luck with your choice.

I've hunted some in the western States and seen little need for much more than a 30-06 so the .375 should certainly be more than enough.

I've hunted Alaska some and haven't found a whole lot of need for much bigger than the 30-06 but commonly use the .375.

I've hunted Zimbabwe twice for buffalo/ plainsgame and have used the .375 to great effect. I don't see the need for anything larger.

Next year while in Botswana hunting elephant I intend to carry a .458 and that is the only reason I'm near to owning one. Were I a US only hunter or a non elephant hunter I don't think I'd own or use anything larger than a .375.

My vote for .375 was based on your item 2 -- PG for sure, DG maybe.

Although I really like the .458, the .375 is much more flexible and is the clear choice for your needs.

Get some 350gr TSX and then buy that 458! You know it's the right thing to do

Guess I'm stubborn, but I would have to answer "C- 416 Rigby".

Get a .416Remington/Rigby and you only need to buy one rifle for your needs. It will do anything a .375 will, only better and is a very good choice for all DG.

voted for the 375 H & H Magnum, but why not a 416 (Rigby, Remington Magnum, Taylor etc ...) and even a 404 Jeffery. The 416 has two characteristics, an acceptable path and stopping power than 375. I think it's an option that you can not rule. What I have said about the 416 can be moved to 404 Jeffery.

Greetings,

Oscar.

While I would take the .375H&H (enough cartridge for the desired hunting, including an occasional buffalo),the .458Win.Mag. with modern factory loads is also a good 300+ yards cartridge and offers 30% more muzzle energy.
http://www.impalabullets.at/da.../newcalibres2010.pdf
Note that the performance of this loading exceeds all .458 Lott factory stuff.
http://www.impalabullets.at/data/Grosswildkat-En.pdf

Thanks for the comments and votes so far. Here is a partial list for “me” as to why it will be one of these two only. One reason I want to stay with one of these two is the nearly ubiquitous availability of factory loaded rounds all over the world or in a PH’s camp if your ammo doesn’t make it to your destinations – the 375 probably having wider availability of these two. I have to say that I am a bit partial to the .458 for the following personal reasons.

1. I already load for other .458 cal weapons (45-70 & 450M) and have literally thousands of projectiles and jugs of powders on hand – I even use Win Mag designed projectiles in them for my max hand loads.

2. The .458 can be loaded WAY down to just play at the range and do a LOT of shooting to enhance weapon familiarity, and hot enough to cause brain damage. (LOL). The lower velocity loads can utilize gas checked cast – less expensive shooting for me translates into more practice rounds down range.

3. I like straight wall cases – nominally lower chamber pressures and much, much longer case life and fewer reloading complications, case stretch, neck trimming etc.

To me the .375 has the advantage in range (flatter shooting) and can be loaded up for DG, and since the DG hunting is a “maybe” with PG being an annual trip and BG in the US tips some things in it’s favor. However, I don’t enjoy long-range hunting. I get my enjoyment out of “the hunt” and getting as close as possible – I have never taken a shot at game over 200yds and that also drives the locations I hunt or plan to hunt. This is a personal preference on my part and not intended to impugn anyone else’s personally imposed range limitations or hunting style.

Even at the 375s down loaded velocities it would be wise to use more expensive jacketed projectiles even for practice – again, for me, that means more expense equals less rounds down range and less weapon familiarity.

I really am planning this to be my LAST long weapon purchase – I’ve filled up two safes already. Just my thoughts and personal rational for staying with just these two calibers.

Forgot to add that I try to put 500 rifle rounds, 250 handgun and 100 skeet rounds down range every month. That is split between several weapons/calibers and concentrating on the one or two I plan on taking on an upcoming trip - that is why I look at cost of consumables as a (not the) factor.

You can use 458 Win in the 458 Lott.

If you had trouble getting brass the 458 lott would be the easier to make brass for from other brass. There is also Hornady basic basic belted brass.

Easier to make 458 Lott from 375s than 458 Win from 338s.

If you don't have one...a 375 is a no-brainer....good for Elk, Bear, large Plains Game, and Dangerous Game to a degree. If you want a dedicated, no compromise DGR, then a 458 in either Lott or Win Mag would be the ticket.

Damned silly to set conditions I think...depends on if you want to just kill it or kill it dead 3 times over and have the meat packaged when you arrive at what was left of the body.

Most any 50-75 cal will do nicely.

Hey...I like my skin whole and intact. When I'm in DR country I carry a DG rifle as big as I can handle...that way if a cockold husband or a PO'ed griz or buf happens to shows up I'm ready...maybe.


Of course this same question has be hashed over and under and through and through so many times, I keep wondering why we keep rising to the bait. Just like any fish will do...even those that have been caught and tossed back several times.

FOOBAR:

Sorry but I am not intending to be "fishing" or trolling. I am not setting the premise of "which one is better" just if you only could add one more weapon, which caliber would you choose. Both have good points and bad and not everyone tastes or needs are the same.

Also looking ahead to the ever changing airline restrictions on the numbers of firearms that can be checked per traveler, the inevitable lost luggage - be it either the guns or the bag with the ammo etc (it even happens to us military types traveling with authorized weapons & ammo by the way).

If you factored in cast bullets, round ball or 3 round balls in a load, a shot load, black powder loads then an argument could be made that the 458 Lott might be very close to the "cover everything calibre".

Loaded with a 350 grain Barnes TSX just how far behind the 375 would it be for plains game.

quote:

Originally posted by scarabeus:
While I would take the .375H&H (enough cartridge for the desired hunting, including an occasional buffalo),the .458Win.Mag. with modern factory loads is also a good 300+ yards cartridge and offers 30% more muzzle energy.
http://www.impalabullets.at/da.../newcalibres2010.pdf
Note that the performance of this loading exceeds all .458 Lott factory stuff.
http://www.impalabullets.at/data/Grosswildkat-En.pdf

I do not understand how can take the 458 caliber Winchester Magnum more powerful than 458 Lott, as it is its shorter length sheath, and consequently fewer harboring gunpowder .

Regards,

oscar.

Well it would help to know what other calibres you have that are in this ppower range.

For instance if you had, say a 338 Win Mag, then I would say get a 458 for you DG rifle.

You should take 2 rifles to Africa. I like my lains game rifle to be able to kill an elephant or a buff.

That is why my "Plains game gun" is always a 9,3x74R double. My "big gun" is a 450 No2 Double, and I have shot some big stuff woth a 450/400 Double as well.

So not knowing what other calibres you have I think you need BOTH, a 375 H%H, and a 458.

Both can be loaded down with the proer bullets and make excellent deer and wild pig guns that kill great, and kick very little.

Mike:

Funny you should mention all those combinations. I have actually played with some of those in my 45-70s. Black powder in a #1 sometimes as it qualifies for the primitive weapon deer season in my home in MS – easy to clean the #1 too. Haven’t done the “multi-ball” thing though….yet.

I have made up some low velocity “shot” packets by using paper wrapped around a wood dowel, twisting one end like a hard candy wrapper, use the dowel to pack a little 2400 in the bottom of the case, slip out the dowel leaving the paper “shot cup” in the case, add a measure of shot, pinch over the top of the wrapper and seal with a card wad and seal with hot glue. Always keep a few in my pocket while deer hunting in N. WI for a few Ruff Grouse. The paper keeps the shot from being too badly scattered by the rifling. Will generate a 10-12” pattern out to 30 feet or so. The extra case capacity of the big .458 would be terrific – better then a .410. Imagine showing up at the skeet range, dragging out a big bolt action and a box of “brass” shells and the boys asking, “What are you shooting today”, and the look on their faces when I say, “oh..just the .458 Win Mag (Lott)”. (LOL) They don’t laugh too much though as I have shot a couple of rounds of skeet with an old Mossberg bolt .410 I have – was able to hit about half and even lucked out with a few doubles.

Can’t take any credit for that stuff above as it was all utilized by the US military when they were using the 45-70. They had a hollow wooden “bullet” that contained the shot – called a “foraging round”. The wood didn’t work so well and the “troops” started using the paper trick.

You also make the point comparison – off the Hogdon web site a 375 max loaded 300gr is 2645fps and the 458 is 2784fps. Yes, understand the SD’s are quite different, but then the .458 is just warming up in bullet weights and the 375 is maxed out.

NE 450:

I don’t have anything in this caliber or power level. Others I have in my safe(s) range from 22s, .223, 6mm Rem, 30Rem (old Rem Model 8 my grandfather passed to me), 35Rem, 8x57JR (new acquisition) multiple 45-70s/450M. Various shotguns etc – but one of these will top off my inventory. Truth is the 6mm up through the 450s will (and have) take everything up to Kudu/Zebra sized PG.

So….do I NEED anything else….probably not unless I decide to do DG…which is not out of the realm of possibility. Won’t be during this Sep trip to Namibia unless my PH gets a PAC elephant permit strictly by happen-chance while I am there. Would be nice to have a weapon there and a few rounds capable if it happens. Just don’t want a dedicated DG rifle taking up space in my safe or one of the two rifles I might be limited to under shifting airline restrictions if I am not dedicating myself to a future DG hunt – guess the economic term is “marginal utility”.

For what it is worth I think the .458 is the way to go as that is what I like. I have both and very very rarely shoot the 375. I can't even think of the last time I shot my 375, not that it is not a great and versitile cartrige, I just like the 458.

The 458 is as cheap to load for with cheap bullets and has the ability to be a great 300 yard gun with the right ammo and practice which it sounds like you have so you should be fine. I hunted deer with the 458 exclusivly for awhile and had great success and only once misssed an animal I feel I would have shot at with another gun but never got into a comfortable range for what I was carrying.

I think you and everyone needs at least one 458.

Matthew

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
NE 450:

I don’t have anything in this caliber or power level. Others I have in my safe(s) range from 22s, .223, 6mm Rem, 30Rem (old Rem Model 8 my grandfather passed to me), 35Rem, 8x57JR (new acquisition) multiple 45-70s/450M. Various shotguns etc – but one of these will top off my inventory. Truth is the 6mm up through the 450s will (and have) take everything up to Kudu/Zebra sized PG.

So….do I NEED anything else….probably not unless I decide to do DG…which is not out of the realm of possibility. Won’t be during this Sep trip to Namibia unless my PH gets a PAC elephant permit strictly by happen-chance while I am there. Would be nice to have a weapon there and a few rounds capable if it happens. Just don’t want a dedicated DG rifle taking up space in my safe or one of the two rifles I might be limited to under shifting airline restrictions if I am not dedicating myself to a future DG hunt – guess the economic term is “marginal utility”.

Baised on that post, I would go with the 375 H&H for sure, no doubt.

Just take a dozen or so 300gr Solids, that shoot close to the same point as your 300gr softs, and you will be good to go for anything in Africa.

Back home light loads with the Hornady 220FP, 235 Speer, or 250 Sieerra will work for deer and pigs. See the thread on "Soft 375 bullet".

The .458 WM is a very versatile cartridge when taking into consideration the number and variety of factory bullets available plus a seemingly endless list of moulds for cast bullets.

I use the 350 TSX for all my North American hunting of big game. At 2750 fps, it's a lot more than a .375 H&H shooting a 270gr at the same MV. And I see no reason for not using such a load on African plains game, plus lion and leopard.

The 300 TSX can be motivated at 2800 fps, equaling a .375 WBY.

Then, of course, there are the heavies for the really big stuff and dangerous, like 400s, 450s, 500s, 550s and 600s.

True, I shoot a CZ and seat the bullets out a bit, but I know for a fact that Indy can get 2700 fps from the 350TSX in his relatively short-barreled 22", M70 Winchester, and perhaps 2800 from the 300 TSX.

Ganyana has pointed out that a 600gr from a .458WM would be very useful on a dugga boy. I have a box of Original Barns in those and will be giving them a try when things dry up around here. From my Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Imp, I've shot them at 1900 fps but with a 1 in 20 twist they are not quite stable enough. I believe from my 458WM, in seating them to 3.75", or thereabouts, I could get 2150 to 2200 fps.

So, in conclusion, there "are no flies" on the .458WM as to versatility. You COULD hunt anything defined as "big game" on any part of the globe. Would it be the "best" for everything? No... but neither would anything else!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Matthewx:
For what it is worth I think the .458 is the way to go as that is what I like. I have both and very very rarely shoot the 375. I can't even think of the last time I shot my 375, not that it is not a great and versitile cartrige, I just like the 458.

Matthew,

I had the same situation with the 375 in company of either 458 or 460 Wby.

Shooting kangaroos, pigs and goats in Australia is probably different to your deer shooting as the volume of shooting is large and you tend to "get onto them" or "get the range" so to speak.

But even so I can't say I have done better on the first morning with a 270 etc than was the case with the 458.

Actually I came to the conclusion many years ago that if someone is a gun nut then whatever calibre they like to play with will work in the field. They seem to be attracted or gravitate to shooting in a way that best suits that calibre.

quote:

So, in conclusion, there "are no flies" on the .458WM as to versatility. You COULD hunt anything defined as "big game" on any part of the globe. Would it be the "best" for everything? No... but neither would anything else!

Bob

Just looked at your website Bob. You have put that together very nicely.

If I ever made the trip to Africa and even if only plains game I would probably take a 460. One load with a 350 grainer at about 2500-2600 and also a 500 grainer at 2500-2600. Not becasue it would be better than a 300 "whatever" magnum or 375 but just to do it a bit differently to most who went before me Based on shooting in Australia I think my success rate would be no different to taking a 300 or 375.

458 lott is you only logioal choioe .. all the "flat shooting" (you actually KNOW what that means?) of the 375 HH, and cheap bullets ... and if you action can already take a 375HH, or your gunchoice, then the lott is the correct answer..

375ruger vs 458 winmag.. 3.35" long
375 hh vs 458 lott.. 3.65" long...

If you're only considering the two choices I'll reluctantly change my vote from a .416 to the .458. But strongly prefer the Lott as it has a conventional throat instead of the Win Mag's long funnel shaped throat. The Lott should do better with lighter (shorter) bullets or cast bullets. Never saw the logic of a short cartridge in a long action rifle (CZ or Mod70), might as well get all the powder capacity the action can provide, especially since one can shoot WM ammo in a pinch.
In .458 the BC's of lighter GSC bullets look interesting for a 250+ yard load.

I am still asked as 458 WM gets better benefits than 458 Lott whether Winchester Magnum has a shorter pod and may therefore contain less powder. Rare.

Oscar.

Oscar:

I will try to answer you with a very simple explanation. Case capacity doesn’t always mean one cartage is more “powerful” than another. It is much more complicated than that. It involves complex relationships between case capacity, shoulder angle, projectile weight, camber pressure and powder burn rate.

I will give you an example of a cartridge I shoot and reload for a lot, 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

If you go to the Hogdon.com web site http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp and compare the three different power level data for the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin. The case is exactly the same, the projectiles can be exactly the same, but the powders and charge weighs are different to stay within the max pressure the chamber of the cartridge is designed for.

The 450 Marlin cartridge is basically the exact same case as the 45-70 with a belt at the base to ensure it can’t be mistakenly loaded in a old Trapdoor 45-70. The 450 Marlin was designed to allow cartridge manufactures to take advantage of power potential of modern smokeless powders so they could maximize the 45-70 potential without fear someone would get injured or killed by putting it in the early Trapdoor weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Oscar:

I will try to answer you with a very simple explanation. Case capacity doesn’t always mean one cartage is more “powerful” than another. It is much more complicated than that. It involves complex relationships between case capacity, shoulder angle, projectile weight, camber pressure and powder burn rate.

I will give you an example of a cartridge I shoot and reload for a lot, 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

If you go to the Hogdon.com web site http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp and compare the three different power level data for the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin. The case is exactly the same, the projectiles can be exactly the same, but the powders and charge weighs are different to stay within the max pressure the chamber of the cartridge is designed for.

The 450 Marlin cartridge is basically the exact same case as the 45-70 with a belt at the base to ensure it can’t be mistakenly loaded in a old Trapdoor 45-70. The 450 Marlin was designed to allow cartridge manufactures to take advantage of power potential of modern smokeless powders so they could maximize the 45-70 potential without fear someone would get injured or killed by putting it in the early Trapdoor weapons.

Thanks, it's difficult to understand, but the physics is well right?. I've always read that 458 Lott is the caliber should have been 458 Winchester Magnum, but I see that this statement is not quite true.

Regards,

Oscar.

quote:

Thanks, it's difficult to understand, but the physics is well right?. I've always read that 458 Lott is the caliber should have been 458 Winchester Magnum, but I see that this statement is not quite true.

+1.

I agree, pretty much an accepted fact - everywhere but on this AR forum. The 458Win was a big mistake by Winchester which took many years to finally set right.

I love both the 375H&H and the 458wm.

Take away elephant hunting, and there is no advantage to the 458wm, imo.

Go with the 375H&H, one rifle for the world!

JPK

It's a simple answer? Get BOTH!!!

I have both the .375 H&H and the .458 (Lott) and if I could add only one more it would be another .458 because, to me, it's more fun to have/shoot/fondle.

Well gentlemen all…..thanks for all the advice and recommendations. As much as I was leaning very hard toward a .458, it looks like fate stepped in and this turned up on GB this morning, http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=161725442 and I am now the owner pending transfer.

If you recall in my OP I said, “1. You are only going to add one more gun to your collation and that is it…..maybe”. Well, I have this damnable weakness for 45-70 and the same seller also had a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=161693049 so, I couldn't just let this one go – it would have been like separating a big and little bother so it is coming home too.

Guess I need to start looking for another safe and sign up for GBA. “Hi, my name is Michael and I am a gunahaulic”?………NOT!!!

Thanks to you all for helping support my addiction!!!

A beautiful pair of guns and very reasonable price. I could get addicted to a Siamese Mauser like that too, very nice.

Thanks Fourbore.

One minor issue maybe is that Charles Daly went out of business effective 29 Jan 2010. Minor mostly because Mauser parts should be relatively universal – I hope.

Guess since there is not a local chapter of GBA, I'll keep lurking for .458. Next question is Win Mag or Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
The .458 WM is a very versatile cartridge when taking into consideration the number and variety of factory bullets available plus a seemingly endless list of moulds for cast bullets.

I use the 350 TSX for all my North American hunting of big game. At 2750 fps, it's a lot more than a .375 H&H shooting a 270gr at the same MV. And I see no reason for not using such a load on African plains game, plus lion and leopard.

The 300 TSX can be motivated at 2800 fps, equaling a .375 WBY.

Then, of course, there are the heavies for the really big stuff and dangerous, like 400s, 450s, 500s, 550s and 600s.

True, I shoot a CZ and seat the bullets out a bit, but I know for a fact that Indy can get 2700 fps from the 350TSX in his relatively short-barreled 22", M70 Winchester, and perhaps 2800 from the 300 TSX.

Ganyana has pointed out that a 600gr from a .458WM would be very useful on a dugga boy. I have a box of Original Barns in those and will be giving them a try when things dry up around here. From my Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Imp, I've shot them at 1900 fps but with a 1 in 20 twist they are not quite stable enough. I believe from my 458WM, in seating them to 3.75", or thereabouts, I could get 2150 to 2200 fps.

So, in conclusion, there "are no flies" on the .458WM as to versatility. You COULD hunt anything defined as "big game" on any part of the globe. Would it be the "best" for everything? No... but neither would anything else!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

+1
I bought 1 more rifle last year, .458 min mag M70, a rifle you buy with your heart, it does'nt have too make complete sense given all the choices.