Here are the balistics that I would like out of my dream bolt action elephant rifle. A minimum of 500 gr .458 caliber bullet at 2,200 to 2,300 fps out of a 22" barrel. It should be on a 2.5" case to easily fit in actions with a 30-06 length bolt throw.

The 458 Win Magnum comes close but is too short in powder capacity to reach the desired velocity out of a 22" barrel. We can increse powder capacity by increasing the length of the cartridge ala 458 Lott or the head diamater ala 460 A-square short. I would like it to not have a belt as all a belt will do is reduce magazine capacity. So is there a 2.5 inch beltless case out there that will give the above velocity out of a 22" barrel?

465H&H

Screw that '06 length case, just look at your BBS name mate, a 465 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro-Express chambered in a genuine H&H magazine rifle!

Saeed's own 450 Vincent Short: He do load it hot!

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450vs.html



You have just inspired me to neck up the 404 Dakota finished up at 2.5" case length and put it in a standard Mauser action with 22" barrel. Another RIPoff cartridge is born: .458/404 Dakota or 45/404 Dakota or .458 Ndlovu

Nobody will remember what to call that one either.

However the 404 Dakota headstamp is pretty crowded. Using a 404 Jeffery basic case might work better:

45/404 Jeffery Short ... patterned after the 45/404 Dakota or 450 Vincent Short. However the G&A folks and Dr. Ken Howell did all this back in the 1970's to 1980's, long before the 450 Vincent Short was a twinkle in Saeed's eye.

Properly headstamped brass is the only rub. Not insurmountable.

.458 AR if you have no aversion to rebated rims. Still no help with the headstamp as yet.

all in unison...458 a.r.!

check out this thread...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/424103494

The 3 1/4 inch case in a double rifle (the real 465H&H) is ok but not my idea of a good bolt rifle case length.

465H&H

Well the RLG rimless .458 Magnum will do the job with a 16 inch barrel. Its a .50BMG case 2.5 inches long and necked to .458. Kinda like a 6PPc on steroids! It chucks a 500 gr bullet at 2400 fps ( the magic velocity) out of a short but stubby 16 inch barrel. and gives you the ultimate bragging rights in any Elephant camp. It has actually been built on a M98 action( reworked by yours truly with a custom made.830 bolt and holds 3 down in a single stack mag. Kinda the carbine from Hell. Ele beware! What I won't do ,to avoid having a damn belt take up space in my magazine!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The 3 1/4 inch case in a double rifle (the real 465H&H) is ok but not my idea of a good bolt rifle case length.

465H&H

Paolo9,5x73 was referring to the 2.9" belted 465 H&H, no? Still wrong for your wants though.

It appears as though the 450 Vincent short and the 458 AR are very similar cartridges with power to spare.....and fit your dream very well.....just load it down a tad to reduce pressures.

Rip
I assumed he was confused that my AR handle refered to the Belted H&H case rather than the Nitro express round that it was meant to honor.

465H&H

Is there correctly marked brass for any of the rounds mentioned that fit my criteria?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Is there correctly marked brass for any of the rounds mentioned that fit my criteria?

465H&H

I don't think the .458 RGL Rimless Magnum is what you had in mind. That leaves:

450 G&A
450 Howell
450 Vincent Short
.458 AR

Any more?
I know of no brass sources for any of those, unless Saeed actually had brass made for his.

there is my version of a 2.6" ish neck up to 458 and trim of the 404 case. like the vincent short without the hassle of "improving". you can do the same with the 404 bullets as well and have correct headstamp but fit an 06 action. i made a dummy round. it has a cal length neck. to boot.

465H&H, Buffalo Arms has some BELL .404 Jeffrey brass with no headstamp. I don't know who it is but somebody on the forums said where you could get a "bunting" stamp to mark the correct caliber designation on brass. Check this thread out, I bought some and they were heavily tarnished but not corroded. A long time in the case tumbler brought them out pretty good.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5999.htm

gunsmit ragnar Hansen has made a 404 version that is trimmed down 68mm, to make it fit into a standard receiver. the load is similar though so they have same speed and energy as its father , the mighty .404 jeffrey.

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
gunsmit ragnar Hansen has made a 404 version that is trimmed down 68mm, to make it fit into a standard receiver. the load is similar though so they have same speed and energy as its father , the mighty .404 jeffrey.

great minds think alike

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Well the RLG rimless .458 Magnum will do the job with a 16 inch barrel. Its a .50BMG case 2.5 inches long and necked to .458. Kinda like a 6PPc on steroids! It chucks a 500 gr bullet at 2400 fps ( the magic velocity) out of a short but stubby 16 inch barrel. and gives you the ultimate bragging rights in any Elephant camp. It has actually been built on a M98 action( reworked by yours truly with a custom made.830 bolt and holds 3 down in a single stack mag. Kinda the carbine from Hell. Ele beware! What I won't do ,to avoid having a damn belt take up space in my magazine!-Rob

Please, photos of rifle and ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
465H&H, Buffalo Arms has some BELL .404 Jeffrey brass with no headstamp. I don't know who it is but somebody on the forums said where you could get a "bunting" stamp to mark the correct caliber designation on brass. Check this thread out, I bought some and they were heavily tarnished but not corroded. A long time in the case tumbler brought them out pretty good.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5999.htm

The BELL stuff is bound to dry up soon, but a good idea if available.

Maybe Jamison would have some .404 Jeffery basic, but he would not sell blank headstamp brass. At least a "Jamison" would have to be on the case.

Then add something like ".458 PH" with your own bunter or engraving. Eh, mr rigby? Maybe Norma you say?

I am still wrestling with the current RIPoff Line, so will bow out now.

yes norma,ill check with them tomorrow they have better brass and after i have heard about bell, quality control also.

perhaps i should not build my m-70 into 300 wby ,but a PH of som kind. .17PH ???? , no but a 340PH would be super as a allrounder. what re i talking about, this cartridge is just under planning yet.

465H&H,

Ha. To get those velocities out of a short case, it has to be a fat one. And your worried about the belt taking up magazine capacity!

Will

My thought is that the 458 Win case has a head diameter of .511 and a belt diameter of .532. If we used a case with a head diameter of .532 we could get the same mag capacity as the 458 Win (suitable for my needs). The added case capacity might get to the 2200 - 2300 fps level safely. I don't know what a case with an incresed head diameter of .020 over the 458 Win would provide in powder charge. Any engineers out there that can compute the increase?

465H&H

465H&H

465H&H,

I don't know what the head diameter is for the 404 (okay, I could look it up) or hence the 450 Vincent Short. I always considered the 450 Vincent Short some sort of miracle cure as a short cartidge Lott, but never pursued it as I could never, at the time, find any source of cases. It really seems like it fits your criteria.

I wish you hadn't brought this up as I'm suppose to be happy with what I have.

Okay, I looked it up. Surely the 458 WM bolt (0.532) could be opened up to 0.543 of the 404 without too much trouble on most 458 WM based bolt faces.

I am officially bowed out of the discussion, just some facts for others to use:

From Ken Howell (OLDE RELIABLE HIMSELF)
Head Diameters:

.404 Kynoch: 0.5450"

.404 Rimless Nitro Express (Jeffery), Birmingham Proof House: 0.5450"

.404 Rimless Nitro Express (Jeffery), CIP Maximums: 0.5449"

.404 HDS Basic: 0.5420"

"The dimensions of the rim, base, and length of this BASIC case are almost certain to be slightly different from the corresponding MAXIMUM dimensions specified for any case you plan to form from this one. Don't let the normal variation of a few ten-thousandths of an inch -- even a few thousandths -- worry you."
(Ken Howell)

Not meaning to hijack this discussion, but what's the big deal about the 0.35" longer case and belt on the factory available Lott?

If it is the search for perfection, then by all means, go for it. But the compromises offered by the Lott have always seemed optimal to me.

Of course, I have never understood the appeal of short actioned rifles or short cartridges (wildcat or factory) in any case. I have always felt that they were just gimmicks designed to sell more guns.

I know that two of the supposed virtues of short actions and cartridges are a shorter bolt stroke and a somewhat lighter rifle. But as for bolt stroke, we are talking a fraction of an inch here, and an entirely negligible savings in time in cycling the action.

And as for weight, if a lightweight DGR is what one wants, the longer actions can be made into very light rifles. The British have been doing that for decades with magnum-length Mausers.

Just seems like too much work for too little payback to me. Still, I do understand the need and search for perfection and don't mean to quibble with you about this. I am sure that you will come up with something good.

Mrlexma,

Bull's Eye!!!!

That's the essence of seeing the forest for the trees that even I lose sight of for some particular aspect that just happens to seem extra important for a while. Sure, there are all kinds of ways to improve the Lott but in the big picture, it's tough to beat and shares the has the same features that boring cartridges like the '06 or .375H&H just keep on going.

It is too bad we have to work will all the little shortcomings to understand what would really be optimal though.

Cheers

Not to meddle, just some more facts:

A once-fired and resized 404 Dakota case is necked up to .458 by a simple pass through the .375-to-.45 RCBS neck expander die. Such a completely finished case then measures 2.565" long, and lo and behold has a neck that is exactly caliber length or .458" long by my measure.

Water capacity for such a single case to follow, though I wouldn't want to influence anyone one way or the other.

I think you need the 458 African Express Rimless developed by Pierre van der Walt in South Africa. It is based on the 404 Jeffery case. Details are included in his book titled, "Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection". If I can remember under which thread Pierre posted a diagram of it I will post the link. The diagram in the thread is slightly different than the diagam in the book, but the idea is the same. It is best to read Pierre's description of the cartridge and the ballistic results in his book.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/815105064

You can arrange to get just about any headstamped brass you want from Quality Cartridge http://www.qual-cart.com/

Water capacity to as flat a meniscus as possible on repeated weighings of a single case:

110.4 grains of water for the .458/404 Dakota

Compare to accepted water capacities from the Barnes Reloading Manual ...

93.29 grains for the .458 WinMag (Winchester brass, greatest capacity in my experience) ...

111.50 grains of water for the .458 Lott using the old Barnes Ammo brass at 2.800" length (which I have found very similar to Winchester brass in construction, probably made by WW).



Definitely significantly bigger than the .458 WinMag

This has got to be the easiest wildcat ever if you have some .404 Dakota dies and a 45 caliber neck expander and crimper.

Brass is the only rub, for proper headstamp, not that I would want to influence anyone, mind you.

Long throated and long nose bullet seated to fill a magnum magazine it will easily beat the .458 Lott by a good margin with long bullets. It will allow 5 down in a CZ box, whereas the .458 Lott also allows 5 cartridges down in a CZ 550 Magnum box.

The .458/404 Dakota is about equal to the Lott when loaded to fit a 3.340" magazine, while the Lott requires a 3.6" box.

Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I think you need the 458 African Express Rimless developed by Pierre van der Walt in South Africa. It is based on the 404 Jeffery case. Details are included in his book titled, "Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection". If I can remember under which thread Pierre posted a diagram of it I will post the link.

Pierre claims a water capacity for his of 110.0 grains. Case trim to length of 2.6420".

http://www.africanhuntinginfo.com

As you were.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
It will allow 5 down in a CZ box, whereas the .458 Lott also allows 5 cartridges down in a CZ 550 Magnum box.

RIP,

I wouldn't bank on 5 down in a regular CZ box. I had to get a pregnant floor plate made to get 4 down in my CZ 550/416 Taylor.

But you can get a pound or more shaved from a CZ Mag by going to the regular CZ 550. Paying no attention to mrlexma, it is worth it to me.

RIP, I try to ignore the Big Bore posts 'cause you guys are off the wall so much! But, is there someone actually making reamers for the 458/404 Dakota? What is the nominal velocity with a 500 gr. 458 bullet? Is 2300 fps possible? I don't really care about what headstamp it has.

Will,
There is no such chambering that I am aware of. You just made it up and can take full credit for the design. But as you see there have been many more like it.

A 404 Dakota reamer with floating pilot for .45 pilot and use of a .458 Lott reamer to make the neck and throat will allow creation of this wildcat. Or one of the Dave's (Kiff or Manson) could make the reamer from scratch.

I think that whatever your .458 Lott will do, this cartridge will do in a medium action, which as you say will require the pregnant bottom metal to get four down. I was referring to the CZ 550 Magnum action, as you know, for 5 down, which I easily do with the 404 Jeffery.

Is it possible that this shorter and fatter cartridge burns the same amount of powder more efficiently than the longer and skinnier Lott?

If Will approves of this .458/404 Dakota idea of his, I will have to have one that weighs less and is shorter than his .416 Taylor.

What was the weight (bare and empty) and barrel length of your .416 Taylor, Will?

will, rip...i dont know where i read it before but i have read that someone has done the 458 dakota on the 423 dakota brass. yer right, it should be good but the 2.6 ish simple neck up of the jeffe brass seems better to me. better yet the 2.6 ish (68 mm) short neck jeffe is better not a wildcat, no headstamp issues, smaller rifle and if you are shooting jeffe rounds you are probably reloading anyway

to each his own and to thine self be true...

whats good for me might not be good for you!

For those of us with the standard length CRF Winchester actions and the numerous VZ-24 and other fine '98 Muasers the AR rounds make more sense than anything. Even the Taylors don't compare to the AR rounds......as previously noted the Vincent short is very close to them.....

The thing about the shortened RUM cases is the lack of a belt that robbs magazine capacity and the extra diameter for engine room. One don't need the .375 length action and the standard magnum boltface of the 458 Win Mag is retained. I can't imagine a feeding issue with this round either.....as the difference is small from the belt diameter of the 458 Win Mags.

This series of rounds could have been introduced instead of the WSMs and would have bought something to the table.....instead we have to develope them on our own.....Kudos to Jeffe for his work on developing them.

Maybe someone at Hornady will make them factory rounds!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
What was the weight (bare and empty) and barrel length of your .416 Taylor, Will?

The Taylor turned out to be 7.45 lbs. with a 22" barrel and the McMillan stock. The new floor pate is adding 0.1 lbs., if I recall correctly. I'll have to look it up.

Anyway, in the process of making another but with a wood stock, so the purists won't gag.

Getting the 'smith to make me another floor plate is a task. It must come with the profession! The intention is to keep it at 7.5 lbs. or less. Hopefully it will be possible.

Will,
I do hope the wood stocked one is a .458/404 Dakota. I was just teasing about trying to beat your weight. 7.5 lbs. bare/empty is an invigorating minimum for such a blaster. Also I would not want a rifle with less than a 22" barrel, so you got that sewed up too.

BTW, if you call it the 45/404 Dakota it will be easier to stamp or engrave your own brass from 404 Dakota. Tight squeeze on that headstamp.

I am finishing up 3 other rifles of the RIPoff Line at present, so the 45/404 Dakota will be next in line, and maybe the last. Who could want anything else after a magic wand like a 45/404 Dakota?

You might beat me to it. It will be an easy one.

RIP,

Fear not. I'm working on another 416 Taylor. Boring, eh? Not much interested in heavy rifles anymore.

Please make up a 458/404 Dakota and let us all know how it turns out. I would be interested in such if I could get the weight down to about 8 lbs. As long as I only shot squib loads at the range, I could probably handle the recoil when hunting.

Then you could lend me the reamer you will have to get made. What a deal.

rip...

why not do a 458 a.r.?

boomer,
Because I have been toying with this idea involving the 45/404 Dakota for a while, all kidding aside. Might as well call it a 45/404 Jeffery Short, just RIPoff of 404 Dakota specs necked up to .458. Perfect.

Of course you know I will throat it to seat a 500 gr TSX on the 4th cannelure, and still have a full caliber length neck covering up one more cannelure and the solid shank base.

It will be used in a Ruger M77MkII for short (3.34") COL with 3 in the box, and in a trimmed down CZ 550 Magnum for 3.75" COL with 5 in the box.

The final RIPoff.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Well the RLG rimless .458 Magnum will do the job with a 16 inch barrel. Its a .50BMG case 2.5 inches long and necked to .458. Kinda like a 6PPc on steroids! It chucks a 500 gr bullet at 2400 fps ( the magic velocity) out of a short but stubby 16 inch barrel. and gives you the ultimate bragging rights in any Elephant camp. It has actually been built on a M98 action( reworked by yours truly with a custom made.830 bolt and holds 3 down in a single stack mag. Kinda the carbine from Hell. Ele beware! What I won't do ,to avoid having a damn belt take up space in my magazine!-Rob

I would also like to see pictures of that.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boomer,
Because I have been toying with this idea involving the 45/404 Dakota for a while, all kidding aside. Might as well call it a 45/404 Jeffery Short, just RIPoff of 404 Dakota specs necked up to .458. Perfect.

Of course you know I will throat it to seat a 500 gr TSX on the 4th cannelure, and still have a full caliber length neck covering up one more cannelure and the solid shank base.

It will be used in a Ruger M77MkII for short (3.34") COL with 3 in the box, and in a trimmed down CZ 550 Magnum for 3.75" COL with 5 in the box.

The final RIPoff.

Cheers

it will be great, have fun...

The 45/404 with what ever name sounds like it would suit my needs. If I was doing it I'd call it the 404/450 Jeffery. That sort of goes along with the 450/400 Jeffery.

465H&H