I was asked earlier today "What do you think about the Hawk Cartridges". I said "I have no idea never heard of them". I was lying but didn't know it until I looked them up and found this.

I had heard of them, here maybe, but just hadn't paid them any attention. I looked at the balistics and then noticed the 375 Hawk is only 100fps slower than the 375 H&H! We may not need Ruger to come out with ammo. Just send that rifle off for a new barrel.

I also noticed that the 358 Hawk is almost equal to the 358 Norma. Please note that I am using an older Hornady Manual (fourth edition) for comparison.

What do you guys think? Smoke and mirrors or an over looked great? I personally would like to see some under a chrono, just because I am from the show-me state.

great topic as I've been looking at their website for quite a while lately, and like you I've looked at both the 375 and 358 with some question about reality......I'm not a lot into wildcats but these seem to be more classed as "semicats" as brass is available as are dies etc.....Z-Hat provides full service.

The one that grabs me is the 358 Hawk.....it'snot a lot different dimensionally than the 35 Whelen but literally blows it away in performance!!

Also the 375 Hawk seems to be a lot better than one might expect in that it duplicates 375 H&H 300 grain velocity with a 270 grain bullet.....
only 30 grains lost to the much smaller cartridge............and get this.....an extra cartridge down!!!!

Zeglin.....here's your chance to shamelessly plug the line......and I assure you.....I'm all eyes/ears!

270 Hornady SS H-4895 58.0 gr. 2552 fps
AAC-2495 56.0 gr. 2452 fps
RL-15 58.0 gr. 2515 fps

Jim Kobe built a 375 Hawk for me a couple of years ago on a Mark X action.

22" Shilen #4 barrel.

The fireforming loads, 55g of H4895 = 2464 fps under a 260 Accubond.

56g = 2611 fps, no pressure signs

Haven't loaded any hotter than that as of yet.

I was necking up 35 Whelen brass to .411, then back down to .375 to form a small shoulder for fireforming. One shot with the load listed above, perfectly formed cases - and haven't lost one yet.

I just put a 375 Hawk reamer, an extra set of RCBS dies and some Whelen brass up for sale in the Classifieds if anybody is interested!

the hawk line is awesome...

looking at the hawk line you can see the big diff between the 411 and the 375...thus the 395-06 or 395 AMERICAN to be wildcat

a thought of mine is to use the 9,3x66 brass to get an extra 2mm of precious caseroom with a longer neck...easy to do and get lower preasure or 25 more fps. it will be like the a.h.r. carts...

use the hawk dies and reamers...easy and cheap

air-cat dibbs on the 9,3x66 brass necked from 22 to 416 you can go to 416 cuzz the 66 brass is 7 thou ish bigger casehead

Boom,
Why don't you sell your 395 idea to Hawk. Complete their line so to speak!

one of the charms is the cheap 06 brass...dont worry, mr z-hat is plenty smarter than i and has already made the 400 express that is longer. but the 66 brass is a great idea and i dont think the 416x66 has been done yet

the 395 will be done eventualy but right now has no comercial exceptance...yet

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
Jim Kobe built a 375 Hawk for me a couple of years ago on a Mark X action.

22" Shilen #4 barrel.

The fireforming loads, 55g of H4895 = 2464 fps under a 260 Accubond.

56g = 2611 fps, no pressure signs

Haven't loaded any hotter than that as of yet.

I was necking up 35 Whelen brass to .411, then back down to .375 to form a small shoulder for fireforming. One shot with the load listed above, perfectly formed cases - and haven't lost one yet.

Thanks for the report. I appreciate the feedback.

Anyone else have experience with this line of carts?

Physics Law Number 43: It takes pressure to make velocity. Pressure is based on case internal volume...period.
It takes vastly higher pressures to produce numbers equivalent to a larger case. Intransmutable by anybody. It just is the law.

Rule #1: Never sleep with anybody crazier than you.

Rule #2: Never buy numbers from anyone with an axe to grind unless an independent labratory can verify theie velocity/pressure claims. For years Weatherby swore by their advertised velocities. Then one day, somebody asked them how long their test barrels were, and if they had any rifling in those barrels.
Ask Hawk for the independent lab velocity/pressure data. If his toys are SAAMI cartridges the pressure dats should be listed. If it ain't...there's a reason.
Ever hear of Ed Shilen? His former partner, who designed the Shilen DGA, did a lot of hunting in Texas. Whitetails, and some long shots. He was in love with the 308 Winchester. He developed some monster loads, but got a bit concerned about pressures, so he called a friend at Olin/Winchester and asked him to pressure test them. What he told me was the data indicated more pressure than the factory proof loads developed. He was over 80K Psi, and the primers were flat, but not cratered.

caveat emptor...

Rich
DRSS

I just reread the data at the website.
According to them, their pressure data was developed using an Oehler M43P. I own one, and I went to Ken Oehler's Chronograph School at his ranch in Fredericksburg, Texas...where Ken resides.
You all need to know that the Oehler M43P is NOT an absolute pressure testing unit...it is a "comparative" pressure testing system. What the 43P actually does do is measure pressures compared to other loads you are developing. To develop real world data for his cartridges the operator would have to know what his baseline loads develop in the way of pressure somewhere else. For instance; let us go with the idea that you are developing your own line of "boutique" rifle cartridges. Finalize your case dimensions, cut a reamer and chamber a barrel. Start low, and keep tipping the powder keg a little farther until you see some pressure signs. Send the reamer, brass, dies, at least 200 of the bullets you want to test, and some loaded rounds and your load data. Oh, yeah, and some $$$. They will buy the same brand and spec barrel you used, cut it to the same length as you used; load and fire their own loads using your data, and cross check it against your loads and claims. All this in their pressure gun. A while later, they forward their findings to you along with the stuff you sent, minus comestibles used. This information is proprietary, only you and the lab know the truth. So, Hawk does this and finds that their loads are a bit, shall we say warm? Their are no SAAMI psecs to adhere to, so as long as THEY do not feel the pressures are dangerous, they can load and sell whatever they wish. Maybe they throat the barrel a little, freebore is actually made Weatherby's cartridges shine.
Back to the loadwork. They now know that their Test Load makes say, 65,000Psi in a barrel with their taper and internal dimensions. Or, maybe 75,000Psi. At this one lab. The only REAL data they can show from their M43P tests is how closely their data agrees with the Lab Data, and how much over or under that their comparative data with other loads compares to the outside numbers and the numbers their M43P showed. The lab says, "this load produces xxK Psi here, and their M43P says it's within 5% here. The rest is based on what their M43P shows compared to the cross-referenced Lab Data. It is like saying "...the lab said this load develops 65,000Psi there, and we show 62,000Psi on the M43P. Soooooooooo, we work that %-age factor into all of our loads developed using just the M43P and that data is valid. I am not saying that is what the really are doing, but that is the most logical explaination. I sent them an Email asking for SAAMI specs, and the results of any pressure testing. The reply should prove very interesting to read.
The website would seem to promise something for nothing, since the 375 Whelen holds 74.5gr of water. They claim a 9% increase in case capacity over the original, and Physics says that velocity will max out at 1/4 of the capacity increase...that's a 2.25% increase (maximum) over the standard 375 Whelen at the same pressure. Go figure...

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Yupp, listen to Rich!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The one that grabs me is the 358 Hawk.....it'snot a lot different dimensionally than the 35 Whelen but literally blows it away in performance!!

Vapo - we all know by know that what you see is not always what you get. The difference in capasity off the two is the same as between the .35 Whelen and its AI version. That's it. And case capsity is what makes a difference, as long as barrel length and preassure is the same.

The Hawks are super cartridges, but do not make them into what they are not.

The 9,3x66 Sako case is a really step up, and would fit superb in a Win70. Then one is really close to the .338WinMag type cartridges, with much better magazine capasity.

The Hawk that really stands out, is the .411 Hawk, as a nearly identical copy of the ORIGINAL .400Whelen with its .458"shoulder.

Yes, it seems the Hawk data is too good to be true, but if nothing else it gives one an idea what might be achieved with some "creative" handloading of the 9.3 X 62 and the 35 Whelen.

Maybe we'll get some more deciples posting here and have a chance to read their preaching. It's always fun to get the opinions of the others.....

One thing for sure....there's nothing chickenshit about the Hawk line.....very impressive.....now it's simply a matter of how much is over the 65,000 yard line.....

BTW...go Tony Dunge!

I just went and measured case capacity on my fireformed brass - comparing it to the closest thing I have to the .375 Hawk...the .376 Steyr

375 Hawk - Whelen Remington Fireformed brass
Empty 199.3g - Full of Water 273.2g

376 Steyr - Once fired Hornady
Empty 206.2g - Full of Water 286.2g

I shared my Hawk data above in an earlier post. Here's my Steyr data, keep in mind it is a 20" barrel and has the "shorter" OAL to fit in the magazine that you Mauser guys don't have to deal with.

376 Steyr - 20" barrel ProHunter 260 Nosler AB
H4895 - 57.5g = 2345 fps
H4895 - 59.3g = 2530 fps
H4895 - 60.0 = 2575 + a flattening primer

The three things I really like about the Hawk: the OAL is 3.245" with the 260 Nosler AB(lots of room to grow there), it fed out of an unmodified Mark X action, and it has an endless supply of brass available.

fireball168,

no arguement there. These cartridges represent the maximum to be achieved on the 30-06 case in their respective calibers. Very well designed, and I understand that the workmanship there is very good. I just wanted to make the point about how high velocity cartridges get that speed.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Bingo I.S.!

YOu can sum up the First Law of Thermodynamics by saying, "there ain't no free lunch!" Actually, my thermo professor called it the "Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics."

Only way to get more speed in the same volume is to jack up the pressures. THe Ohler 43 is a powerful tool, but most folks don't understand its limitations as you do. Also, looking for "pressure signs" is only slightly more reliable than reading tea leaves about your handloads.

I want to see these "magic cartridges" put through the wringer and get some hard, 3rd party pressure testing done on them.

there is no such thing as a free lunch but there is an efficient lunch





http://www.hunting-rifles.com/watercap.html

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/ballistics.html

above is the 380 howell...

the biggest problem with these carts was the brass and now it has been solved with the 9,3x66 brass!!!!

use either the a.h.r. or the hawk dies and reamers to get more capacity.

300@ 2450 is all you need and these will deliver them within reason. the 380 howell has more capacity than the 376 steyer!

Well guys, I've never shot a .358 Hawk but I do have a 35 Brown Whelen which is very similar. I believe the brown has a greater case volume.
I tried some of the medium burn rate powders such as IMR4320, RL15, and Varget with 250 grain bullets and had high pressure signs (flat primers, cratering) at any charge greater than 63gr with all of them. Velocities were 2700+ but who needs the presure.
I now use H4350 for the 250 grainers and get 2650fps, 1" or less MOA, and no pressure signs from a 22" barrel. IMO, this is a more reallistic expectation of the .358 Hawk.
Of course if a 26" or 28" test barrel is being used to develope this data you might see similar advertised velocites with less presure if H4350 were used.

th eword "efficiency" really started getting thrown around when th eWSM's came out and did not have as much speed and power as the regular WM's, so they touted them as somehow being magic and "efficient.

If you want effiency, get a .30 Carbine. That cartridge is far more "efficient" than any Howwell or Hawk, but that has absolutley no relevence on game or anywhere in the field.

the efficient thing was all in fun...

but to have the same if not more capacity as the 376 is great.

the 376 suffered from a non std boltface and length with the possibility of losing one down. the 375x66 improved is better imho

quote:

If you want effiency, get a .30 Carbine. That cartridge is far more "efficient" than any Howwell or Hawk, but that has absolutley no relevence on game or anywhere in the field.

Every time I hear someone call a cartridge "efficient" I'm reminded of the girl that had a "great personality" when guys asked about her.....in other words.....she was ugly!

vapo...

what is not to like about a 06 bolt face, std action, .375 dia, 300 gr@ 2450 reasonably and more if you want it? yes its a wildcat but the figures are good

Yep,
They are a nice line of cartridges.

Didn't Rocky Gibbs do it first, starting in the early 1950's? Those were hyped too.

Then C. Norman Brown of Anchorage, Alaska waited until the mid 1980's to bring out a line of '06-improved cartridges: 7mm, .308, .338, .358, .375, and there was even a ".400 Brown-Whelen" eventually.

Hawk's are cool too. Fred Zeglin's book tells the Rocky Gibbs story, and he has repackaged it for the next generation of rifle looneys.

I've got a .35 Brown-Whelen and it is, as Steve says, bigger and badder than any of the other standard length '06 cats in .358. The .35 Whelen AI is the most practical of the bunch. But take P.O.A.'s velocities with a grain of salt too.

its the new great 66 brass that brings great new life to them and fred zeglin sells it

I have a 411 Hawk and I like it very much.

However, let's not think we can replace a case with the capacity of the H&H or the new Ruger case with an improved '06 case and get equal performance at equal pressures with equal barrel lengths. There are no free lunches.

The Hawk line of cartridges are probably the maximum that can be expected from the '06 case, and they do what they do very well. I really enjoy the 411 Hawk. I had mine made by Fred and he did a fantastic job.

It would just be impossible for the larger cases not be able to best the smaller cases when all the internal ballistic limiters are kept equal, though.

the 411 express and the a.h.r. (howell) carts pick up where the hawk lines stop...the 411 express is the fred zeglin creation.

using the above 9,3x66 brass and doing an a.i. version with body blown out is a great or use the howell or hark dies and reamers and load to howell oal's

i am a amazed at how similar these carts are...

looking at the shoulder location and angle...do you think you could just fireform a simply necked up 375x66???

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
vapo...

what is not to like about a 06 bolt face, std action, .375 dia, 300 gr@ 2450 reasonably and more if you want it? yes its a wildcat but the figures are good

In the net analasys.....what I'm seeing here is the reloading potential of the actual 35 Whelen and the 9.3 X 62 as these STANDARD cartridges are nearly equivalent and just not pushed as hard as potentially they might be in a good action.......and if used in a cold (elk, moose hunting) environment one has the best of all worlds.......I'm very much liking the 30-06 case as the base for all my non dangerous game rifles. I'm fully convinced that if it don't bite ya then all the case one needs is the 30-06.

One must admit.....the Hawk line is a superb line of shooters!!!!! but I think I'll pass this time.

wellllllll my point is the 66 brass gives you the extra room you need to keep preasures in check. to each his own and to thine self be true...