i was thinking the 458 win mags time has come and gone partly due to mr. lott but will hang on for a loooong time because of cheap and available ammo and components but also because of the growing popularity of the 416 taylor... i feel it is a superior cart. not too underbore like the ole 458 w.m. now with the growing popularity of the 416 cal with weights ranging from 300 gr. to 500 gr. with superior b.c. and s.d. the 458 win mag just might be on the ropes.yes, the 458 win mag is dead now thanks to mr lottno, because i own one...yes, the 458 w.m. is underboreno, the 458 win mag is the betteryes, the 458 win mag is not as good as the 416 taylor

The question in title asks if the Taylor is superior but that isn't a voting option.

I think that for that case, yes the Taylor is superior, I do not however think the Win is dead. there are lots of people who have winnies who feel they are sufficient for the task and will continue to use them. No, I don't have one. well, kind of, but it is supposed to be a Lott when finished.

Red

The Taylor and the Win Mag / Lott serve different purposes. The 416 Taylor is an elk/moose chambering. The 458 win mag is a grizz cartridge and the 458 Lott is for real dangerous game (buff, ele, hippo).

Let the flames begin!

The 458 WM will be with us for a long, long time. With today's powders and very good bullets, it's a good caliber for anything that ails you. Since mono bullets have hit the market, they seem to be a bit better and won't break up. Northforks, for instance, have 450 gr softs, CPS's and FPS's. The 450 grainer will give the 458 WM what it has always needed, a bit more capacity.

The 416 Taylor is a good cartridge, same as the Rem., will never push the 458 aside. It's flatter shooting, but up to 200 yds, are you going to notice the difference when the critter is hit?

The .416 Taylor is not superior to the .458, just more versatile.

The .416 Remington is more versatile than the .458 Lott, too.

George

The 416 Taylor is basically a bull$hit cartridge, one reason being that wildcat cartridges and Africa just don't mix.

And there's no reason for it's existence, especially in view of the wide availability of 416 Rem. Mag. and 416 Rigby rifles and ammunition. Both of these standards are better cartridges, offer larger case capacity and thus higher velocity than the Taylor, which the 416 bore needs if it is to compete with the 458 Win. Mag. and 458 Lott cartridges.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd much rather have the 458 Win. Mag., which is widely-available in Africa and offers more bullet, rather than a lighter 416 that's based on the same case.

If I'm going 416, I want more velocity than the 458 Win. Mag. case offers, pure and simple, and I absolutely despise wildcats in any event.....

AD

One reason for the Taylor: it will fit in the same action as the 458! As to the 416 group they have a higher BC. both the 458 and the 416 flying like a ROCK!!!

Hey I have to say something positive I just ordered a .416 Taylor barrel!

Of the two I'd take the .416 Taylor. IMO I'd be more likely to shoot it well and that makes up for the bigger hole of the .458 Win Mag.

Actually the 416 Rem Mag is a better round for me.....

Boom stick, I know you got the BLR hots and the 416 taylor will work there I believe. But let me tap you on the shoulder politely and take you aside and just say LEARN TO SHOOT A BOLT ACTION RIFLE

The Taylor round in particular is still quite unusual to see and I doubt you'll ever see more than 1 Taylor-chambered rifle for every 500 rifles in .458 Win Mag. The Win is still hugely popular despite some of the beatings it takes in discussions. It's still basically the 30-06 of the heavy caliber cartridges - boringly common, easy to find and still gets the job done. As mentioned above, modern powders and 450-480gr premium bullets give it that 2150-2200fps everyone always asked for and puts it precisely into the range where the old classic N.E. rounds earned their reputation for decades. No-one here has ever suggested the .450 Nitro is "marginal" with it's 480gr/2150fps loading have they?

I voted the 458 WM is under bore! because that was the only thing that is absolutely true, in the poll!

I too dislike useing wildcats for anything other than hunting at home, and for something to play with. Of over 100 rifles I own, only two are chambered for a wildcat. One is a 411 JDJ TC Contender, with a 16 1/4" barrel so it is legal for a rifle stock, and the other is a double rifle chambered for 458RCBS.

I do think if the 416 Taylor were made legitimate by the ammo factories, and the top three would chamber rifles for it, you would be surprised at how many folks would buy them, and you would see a lot of them in Africa shortly! The 416 Taylor, or the 375 Taylor are a the only senseable use for the 458 win mag case, along with the factory round the 300 WM, which shares the 458 wm parent case.

I also believe the 458 Win Mag will be with us for some time yet, just like the old 45-70, it doesn't do anything spactacular, but there are thousands of rifles chambered for it, and for that reason alone it will live on! In many ways the old 458 WM has been pulled back from the grave by Monolithic solids, and better powders, but it's powder capacity for a .458 diameter bullet is dismal. It will, and has worked for everything that it is legal to hunt, but is no more than adiquate at best. If you use lighter bullets you loose sectional density, if you use bigger bullets you loose even more powder capacity. Still with all it's faults, it is alive, and will be with us for a long time. What will ring it's death toll is, when most of the rifles are re-chambered for 458 LOTT, and the need for 458 Win mag ammo dies out!

The one statement that is absolutely true that was not on the poll is, "The 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been, in the first place!"

quote:

Originally posted by DLH4570:
One reason for the Taylor: it will fit in the same action as the 458! As to the 416 group they have a higher BC. both the 458 and the 416 flying like a ROCK!!!

Hey I have to say something positive I just ordered a .416 Taylor barrel!

exactly

which would you like handed to you an a d.g. hunt taylor or w.m.?

Boomstick, to answer your last question, I would rather have the round that is slinging a 500 grain bullet. Although not optimal, the win mag isn't the same beast today as it was at its conception thanks to modern powders and bullets.

In the real world, opting for the 416 Taylor just because it fits into a 458 Win.-size action is an act of reverse-logic -- of false-economy -- and represents a very, very stupid trade-off........that is, unless all you plan to do with it is hunt paper at the range close to home and kill Cape buffalo in your dreams.

AD

The 416 Taylor became totally obsolete with the advent of the better 416 Remington...

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Boomstick, to answer your last question, I would rather have the round that is slinging a 500 grain bullet. Although not optimal, the win mag isn't the same beast today as it was at its conception thanks to modern powders and bullets.

500 grain bullets are avaliable see the hawk bullets web page. plus custom bullets

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
In the real world, opting for the 416 Taylor just because it fits into a 458 Win.-size action is an act of reverse-logic -- of false-economy -- and represents a very, very stupid trade-off........that is, unless all you plan to do with it is hunt paper at the range close to home and kill Cape buffalo in your dreams.

AD

good points and good flame...the 458conversion is a convenience thing. people mostly decide on the taylor becsuse of its advantages over the 458 w.m. and they already have the gun.

Ditto what Allen, Mac and Ray have said. The Taylor makes no sense at all today.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 416 Taylor became totally obsolete with the advent of the better 416 Remington...

the rem is ballisticly better i aggree but that was not my post comparing the w.m. to the taylor. the taylor is a good option if you dont want to do the lott thing and you already have the gun to convert to the taylor. i can push 500 grains in a taylor or 500 grains in a w.m. but the 416 wins the s.d. and b.c. race. if i had a true magnum action i would not convert it to a taylor i would go 416 rigby or 404 jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Ditto what Allen, Mac and Ray have said. The Taylor makes no sense at all today.

it does if you have a tired old w.m. and want to give it new life as a moderate velocity 416 chucker

The taylor is obsolete right along with Rays. 10.75x68 or a 404 or lots of others that can not be had on the shelve of every gun store.

I woud hazard to guess that taylor components are easier to get in the US then a lot of others.

There are a lot of good calibers and cartidges out there some better some not.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The taylor is obsolete right along with Rays. 10.75x68 or a 404 or lots of others that can not be had on the shelve of every gun store.

I woud hazard to guess that taylor components are easier to get in the US then a lot of others.

There are a lot of good calibers and cartidges out there some better some not.[/QUOTE





is the 416 taylor better than the 458 w.m.?

Has anyone here loaded a .416 -- any .416 with a 500 grain bullet? That's got to be a super long bullet and the .416 Taylor and the .458 win mag can ill afford to lose case capacity. How much space would a 500 grn .416 bullet it eat up?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Has anyone here loaded a .416 -- any .416 with a 500 grain bullet? That's got to be a super long bullet and the .416 Taylor and the .458 win mag can ill afford to lose case capacity. How much space would a 500 grn .416 bullet it eat up?

Whitworth,
excellent point and especially when constricted by a "short" magazine.

Frankly I can see little reason to venture beyond the 400 grain products currently offered.

The .300 Win mag length M-70 can be rebarreled to the 416 Rem mag with a little work.....but I know that what's really being asked here is regarding converting the BLR.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Has anyone here loaded a .416 -- any .416 with a 500 grain bullet? That's got to be a super long bullet and the .416 Taylor and the .458 win mag can ill afford to lose case capacity. How much space would a 500 grn .416 bullet it eat up?

the 416 will still have the s.d. and b.c. advantage and if you have a tough controled expansion bullet it gives you lots of flexability

You know, this argument just gets lame to listen to over and over. Woven into all this is the Lott/WM issue, the Taylor/Remington/Rigby issue, the super heavy bullet issue and all the others that come up on every discussion. No matter how many people who don't like it and don't use it complain, the 458 is far and away the most popular and widely used (successfully) big bore on the planet. I would bet that at least half the PH's you trust to save your life are backing you up with a 458. If the cartridge is so bad, people would be refusing to hunt with them. Every complaint about the round is based on loading problems winchester had 40 years ago, or reports by someone who knew someone who tabulated some sort of data that is not totally documented in some sort of PH class some year several years ago(or something like that!). With modern powders, it throws 450 to 500 grains at exactly the same velocity that people spend $20,000 dollars for doubles in English NE chamberings to achieve, and them wax ecstatic over.

In the 416 corner, the Taylor is absolutely the most efficient 416 round out there. Look no farther than the data on this board to see that it can easily duplicate the factory Rem 416. And I know from experience that it recoils less and can be made in a slightly handier rifle.

The Remington and the Rigby both perform equally from the factory. They are both super 416 rounds, but with factory ammo or normal loads, there is not a twit of difference between any of the three. As Ray has pointed out, the old temperature/pressure argument went out with Cordite. Africa (especially during hunting season) is far from the hottest place where people shoot, and there just is not a problem. Whether one is a wildcat or not is not an issue, since I doubt anyone would go to Africa with only one rifle, and with the price of factory ammo, particularly premium, I haven't shot a round of any non-rimfire factory rifle ammo for over 25 years, with the exception of burning up piles of 223 for fun.

Overloading a Rigby or (or shooting a Weatherby, which is the same thing) will give you more bullet energy but is really punishing. The same can be said in spades for the Lott over the 458, and if recent eveidence and reports are true, you don't even gain much to justify it.

The big picture is that any rifle that shoots a 400 gr 416 bullet at 2200-2400 fps is going to be an excellent all around rifle, and any 45 caliber rifle that shoots a 450-500 gr bullet at 2200 fps is going to be less of an all around gun but a bit better crusher for short range. There will be no practical difference in performance.

bravo art s...great post. well thought out and communicated. so is the taylor better?...it seems to be by your post thanks...

Are you referring to the .416 Chatfield-Taylor? I say, why not, if that's how your drum beats?

Just ask Will. It makes for a lighter weight, more geriatric-style DGR than the Remington.

If you just have to have a .416 Taylor than go build one. It's a cool concept. havinf never killed anything with one I can't compare it to the .458Win.

I don't think that the win is a bad cartridge just not my first choice. Same as the Taylor.

If we are talking "stopping rifle", the 458 is a better rifle in my opinion. Why? Bigger hole.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
In the 416 corner, the Taylor is absolutely the most efficient 416 round out there. Look no farther than the data on this board to see that it can easily duplicate the factory Rem 416. And I know from experience that it recoils less and can be made in a slightly handier rifle.

The Remington and the Rigby both perform equally from the factory. They are both super 416 rounds, but with factory ammo or normal loads, there is not a twit of difference between any of the three.

The big picture is that any rifle that shoots a 400 gr 416 bullet at 2200-2400 fps is going to be an excellent all around rifle, and any 45 caliber rifle that shoots a 450-500 gr bullet at 2200 fps is going to be less of an all around gun but a bit better crusher for short range. There will be no practical difference in performance.

This is an excellent post by Art S. In my book, Art hit the nail on the head.

All three 416s will launch the same bullet near the same speed. All three have good points and bad points. My liking of the Taylor is its ability to launch a 400gr bullet at near the speed of the Remington/Rigby w/ less powder in a more efficient and smaller case w/ less recoil that makes for a handier/lighter versatile rifle.

A 458Win shooting a 450-500gr bullet is a short range stopping rifle. To me, saying one is better than the other is like saying which is better; a Nextel Cup stock car or an Indy car. Each is better than the other when used for what it is intended for.

Gary

There is nothing wrong with a 416 Taylor and it will toss a 400 gr. bullet at 2300 FPS realisticly....No 500 gr. bullets are available for the 416, but Woodleigh makes a good 450 gr. but its too long to load in a taylor and velocity would suffer to about 2100 FPS, if thats a problem....

The point is any action that you can use a Taylor .338 parent case on then you can open it up in back and make a 416 Remington that is a better cartridge...

The .458 is a better cartridge than the 416 Taylor under any circumstances, it has a bigger bullet with a larger cross section and more than enough SD.

BTW the 500 gr. .458 has a SD of .341 and the 416 has a SD of .330 so your incorrect in that the 416 has better SD than the 458...Ref. Swift bullet Co. Reloading Manual number 1

Gee, all the paper tigers around here!

I can get 2400 fps with 400 gr. AGS solids in my Tayor, and I even took it to Africa.

And I took the 458 WM too, which gets 2150 fps with 500 gr. AGS solids.

In my limited experience(!), the 416's are are good for up to and including cow elephants, but for bulls it is probably a better move to go to the 458 WM or Lott. And 500 gr. bullets are different than 400 gr. bullets.

I might concede the point that a Taylor can do 2400fps, haven't tried one so don't know. I would guess IF it can be done it will be running at higher pressure than the Remington. I know that a Remington can easily do 2400 with medium pressures, if you want more it's available and not at ultra high pressures. I also KNOW that any Taylor will be no handier or lighter than a 416 Remington. Why? Because they use the exact same actions! Any 458 or 338 or 300 Win mag M70 can be opened back up for the H&H length. Any M700 Rem. is already long enough...so where does the lighter and handier part come in? Can't be the barrel or the stock....oh it must the the 10grs less powder each cartridge holds!
One last point. Up until now the thing with properly headstamped brass hasn't been much of an issue, but if the NATO crap starts being a problem you can bet your ass those cartridges will have to be headstamped with what's on your barrel. The Taylor is a wildcat with no factory brass and that makes it a non-starter for overseas hunting in the future, IMO.

John, you're right on all counts.

The 416 Taylor option is mostly a case of mental gymnastics and an over-worked imagination. And you darned betcha that you can build a 416 Rem. Mag. that's just as light and handy as any 416 Taylor. The Taylor offers a bolt-throw that's about half-inch shorter. That's the only differrence, so big friggin' deal!

I know this: If you build a 416 Taylor, the headstamp won't match the caliber designation that's on your rifle barrel, and if your ammo becomes lost or separated from you in transit, the nearest source of resupply is going to be some 10,000 miles away, back at you loading bench in Hoboken..........or wherever.......

You talk about brain-dead logistics, and it's usually done -- and here's the real truth -- so that the guy who's ordering the work can avoid the expense of a proper action to house the longer cartridge. One more exercise in false-economy

AD

OKAY.

I GIVE UP. THE 416 TAYLOR IS A PIECE OF CRAP.

BECAUSE THE VOTE SAID SO!

Will,
No one is saying the Taylor is a POS. What we ARE saying is that it makes no sense, not in today's world at least. No different than someone trying to make a case for the 450 Ackley instead of the Lott. There is just no good reason to turn your back on factory ammo/brass for the sake of a slightly more efficient cartridge or 1/2" of bolt movement. Let's get real here folks, if you think 5 or so grains of additional powder will make the recoil unbearable you might want to consider a smaller cartridge to start with. Or that slight amount of bolt throw is somehow going to keep you from getting off a second shot in the proper amount of time?
And finally, in my experience none of these 416s are the equal to a properly loaded 458 when the shit really hits the fan...and isn't that why you carry a big bore?

WILL,
YOUR RIGHT THIS TIME, IT IS A PIECE OF CRAP!! at last you figgured it out.

Not so fast Will, remember what I say about opinions "everybody has one, but only mine is right"

In seriousness. I have crossed this bridge with the guys before. There ARE times that for a 416 bore the Taylor makes sense AND is a better alternative than the Remington. In my case when doing it on a Springfield. There is nothing wrong with the performance. Properly headstamped brass and packaged ammunition is available. And as has been pointed out by some that have gone to Africa, there are very few cartridges readily available there to begin with. You could take a common factory round over there and be just as screwed if you lost your ammo from what I understand. I consider that moot.

The Taylor is a good choice in some instances, the Remington good in others and the Rigby of course can never be said to "suck". If I were setting out to get a 416 and not doing something that dictated to me my choices (i.e. only going for a mod70, or using an 03). I wouldn't even consider the Remington I'd get the Rigby.

Red

headstamped and factory loaded 416 taylor

end of discussion on "no headstampped bras, no factory loading"

yeah, them and superior ammo... same a 577 nitro, and a load of others..



Sorry Allen, I am just having a day and taking this one wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
The 416 Taylor is basically a bull$hit cartridge, one reason being that wildcat cartridges and Africa just don't mix.

exactly like the 450 #2, the 500NE, and the 416 remington, and the magical 458 lott, in their days. In fact, the ONLY rounds that can be found everywhere in africa are 22, 303, 7.62x39 and 12ga... everything else is hit or miss

quote:

And there's no reason for it's existence, especially in view of the wide availability of 416 Rem. Mag. and 416 Rigby rifles and ammunition. Both of these standards are better cartridges, offer larger case capacity and thus higher velocity than the Taylor, which the 416 bore needs if it is to compete with the 458 Win. Mag. and 458 Lott cartridges.

and no reason for any of the 416s to be around, as the 404 was first...EXACTLY like the 308... no reason on the EARTH to have a bolt gun in 308 when 30-06 works just fine, as the 308 was invented for ONE specific gun


Other than you can rebarrel a ruger 77 mkII in 7rem mag, or any other ation, inlcuding winchesters, that are setup for the old "short" magnum round.


Just that it's 1/2 the gunsmithing cost to have one made on a mauser vs a 416rem or 458 lott

quote:

As far as I'm concerned, I'd much rather have the 458 Win. Mag., which is widely-available in Africa and offers more bullet, rather than a lighter 416 that's based on the same case.

This actually answers the man's question

quote:

If I'm going 416, I want more velocity than the 458 Win. Mag. case offers, pure and simple, and I absolutely despise wildcats in any event.....

AD

Allen,
technically,if you load anything in the least bit different than EXACT factory loads, you've only used the same case and bullet, but you impact and velocities won't be set up for the gun.

the 416 reminton was a wildcat, even after they stole it from george, 20-25 years ago..

and the lott was until what, 1998? when it was finally saami...

and the 308 is a wildcat, though factory sponsered, of the 7.62x51... no, they aren't the same case nor load pressure, they just HAPPEN to fit in the same chamber.. .different drawings and different loads.


In short, I feel that the 416 taylor is a fine round, and the 458 winchester CAN be a fine round. I like the 458 more, today.. but ask me tomorrow, i might like the low recoiling 416 taylor.