wow, great info and looks like a bunch of fun that's for sure. anyway, i repeat, only know- it-alls continually point out flaws in everyone else while cleverly revealing next to nothing about themselves.

judging by the criticisms here, and then judging by the comments made by those with obvious experience, lots of it! it sure makes one wonder how some of the loudest and most obnoxious here got their "supposed experience". should we continue to pay any heed to their comments b/c they type the most posts on their keyboards?

I think that Americans assume that if someone posts a video on YouTube they want others to see it and therefore they are showing off. I found the video very interesting. I also enjoyed the comment by Pierre about "situational awareness" and its importance. I also found the distance between "stages" interesting, totally unlike the typical IPSC setup: run 5 yards, shoot 50 rounds; run another 5 yards shoot another 50 rounds...... These guys had to go perhaps 25-30 yards. I would love to try something like this, just as an educational and humbling experience.
Peter.

Hi there, I think that this looks like really good fun, and a very good idea for training and educating people who will be hunting or working with dangerous game. Events like this are always good for bringing people with similar interests together and to have fun most importantly. I think that the last guy shot really well indeed, although I did not see his score unfortunately! I think the multiple compulsory reloading idea is very good too. I am sure the real good guys can do it without looking down, keeping their eyes on the advancing beast!

Gun safety, is something that varies from person to person, depending on how they have been brought up with firearms. I did shudder a little when the guy that slipped came along. The slip was an accident, not some thing you can mitigate much against unless you do the shoot in rugby boots or really grippy vellies! However, I do not like to see people (spectators or cameramen) any where in front of the shooter when shooting, even if they are a foot or two in front and far to the side. Also, to be picky, I would have been happier to see the same guy that slipped engage his safety before putting his rifle down and picking it up off the bench again and running off with it. If the rifle is in your hands and down-range, no problem, but after putting it down and picking it up again, no! Yes, having the safety on will add more time to your score, but all it takes is one accident to spoil the fun for everyone, and it should be possible to be tough on range rules, and still have lots of fun. I hope that I am not being fussy or an alarmist, but I think that you can not afford to be sloppy with regards attitude to firearms, especially when there are others around.

I think in situations involving speed shooting under pressure, you are more likely to encounter problems such as dropping bullets everywhere, short-stroking the bolt, resulting in jams, engaing the magazine release, spilling bullets everywhere, etc, (something that should probably make you learn about what you are doing wrong, as well as providing humour to everyone else!) but these can always be cleared and rectified safely if the basics are applied.

Range safety is a critical factor, and, as stated by Pierre, every event is analysed and we learn (and teach) from it. We are also brutally honest, and we do not window dress anything that we put out there. Show me any active shooting range where a bore has not raked around to face a person?

Our members consist of two specific groups:
1)Those who have faced dangerous game and...
2) Those who are still to face dangerous game

When I one day am being charged down by an irate, injured beastie, I will be highly annoyed if my PH or back-up shooter asks me to move a little to the side because I'm a bit close to the muzzle of his gun....

On another point of safety...It is not neccessary to be able to outrun a charging elephant bull, but it is good to be able to outrun your hunting companion

Stephen and Pierre, Thank You for the great video and an intro to the Big Bore Association of SA.
Saturday is our annual metting to set up matches and dates. I'm going put a Big Bore match on but without the moving targets. If i get the local turnout that i think i will i'll try to get some movers made for next time.
There's a lot of us around here with big bores. Must be the redneck in us.
Oh, where can i get some lion targets??
Thanks Again!

Thanks for the support and the constructive crticism. It is appreciated. I had nothing to do with putting the clip on - so the credit must go to Stephen and Frederick.
In terms of range and shoot rules the creation of a dangerous situation attracts a disqualification. It does however not get edited out of a video clip. We show what really happens - not what is politically correct to show. It happened. Trust me - Katte is more than aware of his mistake and will not make it again. I myself have been disqualified once. Also bear in mind that the range was so set up that it would only be Katte and the RO there and the only place a person (except in this case the cameraman who was there as a once off) could be shot was if he was flying overhead. That range is dug out almost thirty feet deep if not more and you could see at the start that the entrance is less than a meter wide and then goes through a 135-degree turn away from spectators. You guys must greatly distinguish between the traditional type of ranges you use and what we use in BASA. Fact is - it still remains a dangerous action - but see it in perspective - this is a hunting situation - not the range situation you angle your comments from. Do you engage and disengage safeties when you fell in the bush and pick your gun up?
The targets can be ordered from Garripani Targets in South Africa, but the cost of postage and risk of damage will probably make it easier to take some animal photos and have it printed at a US print-shop.

Frederik, Stephen, Pierre:
Wonderful club, wonderful shoot. I would love to just watch, much less participate. A guy should run that course a couple of times a week for a month before going on a DG hunt. I have only been on one PG hunt in Namibia, and I can imagine a course for PG hunting that would have been a big help for me just shooting a 9.3 CZ off the kopje rocks and sticks.

Hi Pierre and Stephen, I hope that I was not too critcal about the safety issue, it is just that I felt little alarm bells going off in the back of my mind, but no-one got injured (except pride maybe), so no harm done. I know that all of the guys shooting know their weapons well, which is probably the most important thing, as most accidents happen with people who are unfamiliar with a firearm. Keep up the good work, seems like you guys have created a really fun and educational past-time for big-bore fans!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:

quote:

WOW!! Too scary! I'm embarrased for those guys. Pathetic reloading, speed, safety? Comical except that most of them were dangerous to themselves and bystanders. Some of them could barely move!

Were these professionals or tourists?

We're still waiting for your video....

So you were the guy who slipped on his ass!?!?

Katte has probably shot more DG before he was 18 years old than most of us, including you an me will do in our life.

yeah, but how many posts on AR forums does he have?

This is simply one of my favourite videos on Youtube and there is no doubt that the Boer Boys (the term is used with nothing but affection here) know how to have fun preparing for their extensive hunting.

In the US Ernie Stalman of www.badgerbarrelsinc.com has two big bore rifle matches every year in Lodi Wisconsin, the Vintagers have their shoot (in Maryland this year IIRC) and there used to be a match that was as elaborate as the South African one in Indiana though I understand that it has been closed down because the range owner and promoter has been in bad health.

I used to shoot the ridiculous UIT (now ISSf matches) in the days when Moses wore shorts and I hope that there are enough of these worldwide to make this a formal sport. It looks too much fun for both experienced hunters as well as for newcomers for it not to be.

Lead the way forward, BASA!

Good comments from Pierre and Stephen.

I missed the last shoot due to work commitments, but every one I have attended has been a hoot.
Each time everybody walks away with something, whether they have been humbled, found out that their rifle does not like fast reloads and needs some attention, their ammo would not chamber properly, or completed the course without getting flattened by a paper target, or, or, or,......
Ability, or the recognition that unconscious competency is only going to come from those 4 nasty "P's" practice, practice, practice and practice, is what folks walk away from this kind of shoot with.
As Pierre says, it is a great learning curve, and best it occurs on the practice field.
Generally the people who feel they can scoff at others have not stepped up to the plate, yet and might have forgotten where they started.
Ganyana and other AH writers have written several articles referring to the fun and games at the Zim PH and Guide exam when it comes to the shooting side and reliability of the firearms and ammunition. And these are folks at the peak and doing their exams to prove it.
Also, those guys who have shot a reasonable amount of IPSC will know, the best functioning gun will choose race day to hiccup
And, 80% of competitors are there because they enjoy it, leaving the kicking and gouging for prizes to the other 20%.
A lot of the lads that belong to BASA are just plain big bore enthusiasts, not PH's or people that depend on their firearms to keep them out of the dwang when the chips are down, and I would venture to say that not too many could afford to use their rifles on regular DG hunts, they are mostly a bit out of the budget range.
But should this preclude them from having a bit of fun?, and yes, safety is paramount, but mistakes can and do happen. And yes, Katte would have been disqualified on any IPSC type range for failing to control muzzle direction when he fell, but all we see is the video, and are not aware of any action that may have taken place after the incident.
Apart from having fun with the heavy calibre rifles, spending time with like minded people, the onerous issue here has been prompted by the new damn gun laws in this country, with the underlying "use it or lose it" pervasion in the law.

Moving and reaction targets are fun, and together with mandatory/forced reloads, changes the scenario from a target shoot, to a fun filled day which gets the heart pumping.

I hope you guys who are setting up the fun shoots in and around the SCI and Dallas shows have as much fun,

Later,
500

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
yeah, but how many posts on AR forums does he have?

Sorry, I didn't think about that
My apologies

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
WOW!! Too scary! I'm embarrased for those guys. Pathetic reloading, speed, safety? Comical except that most of them were dangerous to themselves and bystanders. Some of them could barely move!

Were these professionals or tourists?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Go to a combat shotgun or three gun match in your area and see how it's supposed to be done. The type of weapon doesn't matter - having a clue does.

Most people might have hunted a whole lifetime, and never reloaded when running. Most have probably never runned with a rifle in their hand at all.
And they darned sure have never done it with a camera in their back.
I think they did amazingly well, for a bunch of chaps having fun. That a very experienced DG-hunter accidently hits the ground, is not embarresing at all - it just shows that muck is slick and shit happens.

To compete this with competition shooting is somewhat on the ridicoulous side, imo.

But it shows a fraction of what can be expected when hunting DG, and should be a good routine to find ones recoil/rifle-weight level.

Me thinks very few would advocate guns bigger than .458 Lott level.

quote:

To compete this with competition shooting is somewhat on the ridicoulous side, imo.

Not at all!!! Get into some kind of physical condition as your life depends on it!!!

Then practice, practice. Practice loading, unloading, reloading, single round loading, point shooting, low light, no light, etc. until everything is second nature.

That said - my apologies to those who produced the video and participated in the shoot. I was perhaps a little caustic and less than thoughtful in my original commentary.

Hopefully these discussions will instigate establishment of an international competition for DGR?!?!? Perhaps an annual event with rotating venue.

Europe, Africa, South America, North America, Australia.

Weight and caliber classes, different events. Entry fees to pay for a pro camera crew.

quote:

Hopefully these discussions will instigate establishment of an international competition for DGR?!?!? Perhaps an annual event with rotating venue.

That would be cool....

It sure looks like plinking loads are used or those big bores aren't really that big! I didn't see much in the recoil department!

.........kinda defies the purpose!!

Stephen, how many rounds do you normally shoot at a match? And at how many targets? Thanks Walter

Bullet_.375,

"It sure looks like plinking loads are used or those big bores aren't really that big! I didn't see much in the recoil department!"

Sorry but the loads used were mostly loads used that are accurate and would have been used on big game. Maybe you have been watching too many of Saaed's dvd's with the Trex and his friends.

A lot of the loads were factory as well especially in the 375 department.

It would defeat the notion of practice if you would take plinking loads to the match. Flinching being the number one culprit. You will hear the guys talking about their loads and speed and they sure aint plinking loads.

A few points...

Macifej, I think Bent actually meant "compare" not "compete" and in this respect he is spot on as regards our intentions.

This flows into your suggestion of an international competition. Whilst we at BASA recognise, and indeed many of our members take part in, competitive shooting, the original concept at BASA was specifically to avoid competitiveness as a focus. It REALLY is intended to prepare all types of hunters for the possibility of one day going against dangerous game.

To this end we do score people (in 3 calibre calsses) but we VERY actively try to keep people focussed on their own personal score as an improving factor over time. ie. Compete against yourself! Learn, gain confidence, grow as a hunter, HAVE FUN, and meet other like minded folk.
Added bonuses are associating for conservation issues, against the anti-brigades, etc. etc.

The concept of spreading by International Chapters" must remain true to these original ideals which are integral to our constitution, so I cannot see interaction with competition as it's purpose working for us. I repeat, we are NOT anti-competitive shooting, but there are lots of options for that elsewhere. We are trying to make DG hunting a reality for those who want to do it, and to bring back something of an era we all once thought was lost forever.

As to light loads..... NOT ACCEPTABLE AT OUR SHOOTS. We randomly chrono rounds at the shoots. Of course there are those that have tried it, but again, we are simulating the real thing, and you dont stop a charging pachyderm with a squib load.
That said, there are those that have tried it. It is quite funny to watch a guy shoot a super bore, only to hear the laughter when it looks like he shot a "flying snow goose" with all the filling floating in the air!

To answer Ol Bull, typically we set up 4 to 5 ranges, requiring 4 to 5 shots each for the day. Each range would have a specie theme. Buff, Lion, Ele etc. We have a system now where the first shot starts the clock, at a static target with a balloon (or condom) behind the kill zone. The popping of the ballon starts all the movement from there on. Pullies, rotating systems etc. The timer stops when youve fired your last shot or the targets are all static.

Forced reloads are designed into each range. Some favouring doubles, others favouring bolts. We also have a few lever guns and single shots involved. Scopes are optional, but you have to complete the whole day either scoped or not. You cannot chop and change.

Scores are computed on kill shots and time. Our system is developing with each shooting day to fine tune it for reality.

Enjoy......

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:
A few points...

Macifej, I think Bent actually meant "compare" not "compete" and in this respect he is spot on as regards our intentions.

Thanks, Stephen, that is exactly what i meant! English is not my native tounge, sorry to confuse.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

Get into some kind of physical condition as your life depends on it!!!

Then practice, practice. Practice loading, unloading, reloading, single round loading, point shooting, low light, no light, etc. until everything is second nature.

Macifej,

I agree totally, and more. I think very few BB-owners ever shot a big boomer in any other position than standing offhand. In the video we see an experienced DG hunter sprawled on the ground. No DG would wait politely for him to get back on his feet, and to save his life, he might need to fire from that position. A rifle used on DG should be fiered in the most akward positions, on the range. That will give a better picture of ones ability to "suck up" recoil and fast, accurate follow-ups.

My point was, that to compare this to any competition shooting is a bit far off. Copetition shooters always take things to the extreme. It is like to compare shotgun-trickshooters to your everyday duckhunter.

Stephen: Your explanation of the spirit behind your courses makes them much more useful on all sorts of levels. I hope you fellas never succumb to the gamers. Hunting is far too profound and important to our species to let it become mere competition, and your organization seems to appreciate that. Fellowship, competence, personal skill, being prepared ... good stuff.

Stephen, where do you get the lion targets??

Ol Bull

Thanks again for the encouragement. It seems to me you REALLY are in tune with BASA's original ethos.

I am not personally sure where these targets come from. In a post by Pierre in this forum he mentions Garripani Targets, but I cannot find them by web search. I will certainly be able to track them down during this week for you though.(Pierre tends to hibernate on weekends )
Will let you know then.

Stephen, Thanks. I ordered 50 buffalo targets today from safari press. But i'd like something else for the guys to shoot at. Thanks again for the help!

Hi Ol Bull

This thread just about answers your question.

BASA Forum thread

Seems lions are a problem in the U.S. Perhaps I could "can" some and send them over for you!

Stephen, i am Walter.
Thanks for all your help buddy!

Folks, we have finalised the dates for 3 of this year's shoots:

At Donkerhoek, just outside of Pretoria on:
9 Feb 08
24 May 08
23 Aug 08

Anyone passing through this neck-o-the-woods who would like to join us, let us know and we will arrange it. Visitors are always welcome.

Big Bore Assoc. of Southern Africa
stephen@thegrillmaster.co.za

Damn, now you tell us!

My 375 is in for fixing up the stock so I can use the sights beter. Needed to get that fix asap so I supose I wouldn't have had a rifle to go with anyway.

Anyone going to borrow me one ???

Frederik, why not get Katte to lend you his

From what we've seen here before I think you have "shares" in that gun

Frederik, I might be able to make it, then you can use my 9.3x64. Will phone you regarding it

Karl, sounds like a good plan if it works out.
I will need to film a little extra anyway on the shoot as the rain killed the shoot last time.

Looks like fun but could be more realistic if reloading cartridges from a cartridge belt rather than from a table. When somebody hunts, is there a table to put your extra ammo?

475Guy1,

Yes you are right with piciking up the cartridges from the table but you must most of the people shooting are not pros and also will never have get a chance to shoot big game in their life maybe once. They just love big Bores and shooting, so at least let they dream.

I hope someone writes up a comparison of low power scopes v. iron sights. This looks like a perfect testing ground.

My hat is off to the SA's for initating a hunting course of fire that induces stress which includes field positions, reloading, moving/shooting without turning it into a an equipment race. Good going!

Well 475Guy1, I guess that depends on the quality and attention to detail applied by your outfitter & PH

Actually you make an excelent point, and I will certainly raise it at the Exco meeting tomorrow night. My guess is we have never worried about it before because we are not over concerned about the competitive aspect, but I think you are spot on - We are trying to create as realistic a dangerous game situation as possible.

Hacksawtom, just a little inside information for you... Pierre VD Walt, editor of BASA's journal is on the point of doing a VERY comprehensive comparitive test on sight types for big-bore / DG use. It covers iron sights, various scopes, laser / red-dot systems etc.

Most of the required bits & pieces are in place, and he is finalising the unit standard. It will appear in a future edition of The Big Bore Journal. I will let you all know when!

You can view aspects of our journal at BASA

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
475Guy1,

but you must? understand ]? most of the people shooting are not pros and also will never have get a chance to shoot big game in their life maybe once. They just love big Bores and shooting, so at least let they dream.

......Why couldn,t they go hunting ................How expensive is it ????????....I,m a very firm believer in [ If there is a will , There is a way ...] ...............................Any rules against muzzle brakes ,??? I assume everyone in the vicinity is wearing hearing protection ......

gumboot458,

In SA dangerous game is very expensive and the price is driven by overseas trophy hunters mostly.

So it is very expensive. But if you wait long enough and have some spare cash in the bank you could get a good deal but were talking minimum of $5000.00 for a buffalo hunt even in Zimbabwe. So unfortunately the locals have to fork out same as anybody else. But if you are lucky enough to be a Botswana resident then you could have beter chances at better prices.

Hearing, protection is worn by everyone yes and there is no rules against muzzle brakes as far as I know.

475Guy1 re loading from belt. Thanks for all the imput. This is most welcome. You just happened to notice an exercise where loading is from table - at times with marked no-use rounds in between. Sometimes it is out of pockets. Other times from belts - as some parts of the clip show. At times from the ground to simulate dropped ammo. The guys go home and practice one method, then we change the method just to keep the pressure going but w epractice all variables as best we can. Mostly we do things to simulate reality as best we can on ranges, but at other times we just add pressure for the sake of exposure to that. We also have to strike a balance between the levels of expertise required for different exercises as we have to cater for various skill levels which need to be kept interested, participating and motivated to improve. What I find most interesting and actually rather concerning is that some of the most important aspects have not been picked up at all so far. What about taking eyes off target during charge excercises? Is that right or wrong? Are they focussing on right action and is peripheral vision used - remember it narrows under stress. Are the guys running with bolts open or closed? Do you want to run around with an open bolt when grass and sticks can fall in the action in real life? These are field situations partly simulated. Do the guys reload when they have the chance? Etc. Then ... before you find the answers ... do you have an idea what the rules prescribed and why? Sometimes the permitted action rules prohibit the sensible thing - for a teaching reason. Have you ever been on a range where you had to run across planks with spaces inbetween and clamber over tyres. Why is it done - somebody can break an ankle. Ever wondered how Johan Calitz got trampled or why I have a life-long limp? Naturally our liability laws are different, our waivers valid and our animals often unaccommodating. Thanks again to you guys who take the trouble to assist with comment and analysis. It is most welcome.

Guys

I am a proud member of BASA, and would throw in my 2 bits worth,

Unluckily for me my Moz concession kept me from the shoots last year, and looking at the lates news letter, this year is going too be as diffycult.

Pierre , if you are eading this, what was the percentage improvement in our first 2-3 years ?

I know it was amazing for me, and I learnt a helluva lot, and every shoot learn a lot more,

We wlove big calibres and love shooting them, and what better way too compete , for me it is bettering my old percentages , if not I am losing against myself

If you book at the right tim of the year you can incorporate a BASA shoot as part of your hunt, and I would love too see some of you run arouns there