The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Has the blossom of the BELTED cartridge case wiltedGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Not wanting to threadjack this following: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/2581089121 I decided to start this thread but hope that forebore doesn’t mind that I paraphrase his original question for this thread. Reading on the AR forum, the holy grail of DG bolt action appears to be reliability and feeding. Understanding that a belt is allegedly required for headspacing in a straight -bodied cartridge; e.g., 470 Capstick, 458 Lott, and 458 WinMag, but not on a cartridge with possessing an adequate shoulder; e.g., 460 Weatherby Magnum, 416 Weatherby Magnum, and 378 Weatherby Magnum. With the above in mind why would you step over a non-belted cartridge to select a belted cartridge alternative? Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | ||
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I dont like the idea of mixing belts AND shoulders. Does it work? yes. A belt can allow you to go to a larger diameter bullet on a given case and still have a traditional means of headspacing. EG the 550 Gibs and the 577 BME A belt on a RUM case can let you go to .500" diameter instread of .475" and below. It has been said that a belted case is the most reliable headspacing because of potential shoulder setback during reloading. I like both. Just not together. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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A belt would have made a lot of sense on the 400 Whelen! Apart from the "belt magic" I can't see the point of it on any of the Weatherby cartridges save that it I suppose it was easier to leave it on that turn it off the parent cases Roy W used in developing his rounds. | |||
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A belt with brass a touch undersized at the shoulder will sure feed easily. I think the belt has its uses ... but if your a single shot type ... you could replace it with a rim.  Cheers... Con | |||
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Hey, I like the 416 Rigby, no belt. 404 jeffery, again no belt. Sometimes the belted cartridge is more popular, but not always. I am a firm believer in less is more. In the olden days, cartridges that headspaced off of the belt could make up for sloppy machining or sloppy ammo mfg. Otherwise, I doubt we would see belts except on straight wall cases. John | |||
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That sloppy machining can also account for smooth as silk feeding. Consider a SMLE and its 303British. Generous sloppy chamber ... feeds and cycles no matter what. As reloaders we hate 'slop' and its implications for the brass ... but a hunter after dangerous game may just appreciate it immensely. Cheers... Con | |||
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I've been told it's cheaper to MASS produce rifles that use a belt compared to a shoulder for head spacing. I guess you'd have to own REMINGTON or WINCHESTER to know for sure. michael458 has proven with his 500MDM round, [for one] that when using a CFR you can use a BELTLESS case and straight walls because the claw extractor won't allow the cartridge to go forward into the chamber. The claw has a grip on the cartridge that is strong. Now in a push feed action you'd have to head space on the mouth or belt or shoulder. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I agree with the above and as stated I too like the 550 mag and 458Lott designs. Straight sided cases both make good use of a belt. No rebates and enough taper. I have exceptions. I like the 375 H&H, but it a old classic and I am a sucker for the great old historic rounds, from the American west or British in Africa. I love this round. Belt helps on this one I think, its the original belted mag. Dont matter though, its got the romance. I also like the 300 weatherby, just a great round dating back too when all or most the sexy new magnums were belted. I never had one - but; I like it. | |||
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What about the 400/375 H&H from 1905 or are you putting that in a lower class and the 375H&H in a higher "magnum" class ? | |||
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Nope, in fact in bores from 550 up in a short time belted cases/guns will be the most numerous..Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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As a believer in 'classic' cartridges, I own lots of belted ones. I'm not against the beltless classics but the 'new' ones have little interest to me. | |||
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I have to admit I dont know about this 400/375. | |||
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That's OK, Not many do, it passed into obsolescence along time ago, like when the 375H&H came out !!! But in reality, as you said, the 375H&H could probably be called the first belted MAGNUM. | |||
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Whatever works. I don't care. | |||
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!!!! I'm glad someone said it! Do you notice you never hear the top gunsmiths crying about belts? The reason is that they don't hinder anything in the real world. The belt debate was started by gunwriters who were looking for something to write about. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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There isn't much to debate, it is a method of headspacing that really isn't necessarily better or worse, just different. Modern manufacturing techniques allow elimination of the belt allowing a bit more case capacity in a standard size action. It is often true that gun writers have to dream up new controversies, other wise, they will be in line looking for an unemployment check. As long as it keeps people interested in firearms, I guess it is a good thing. John | |||
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Jason I disagree with the jest of your comments. Top gunsmiths earn their living by making the cartridge that you’ve elected to use function properly in the rifle action that you’ve also elected to use; their failure to do so on a regular recurring basis results in their business failure.can make just about any cartridge feed reliably in a rifle that they’re performing work on. I perceive that reloaders who are attempting to obtain repeatable results are the principal cause of the debate rather than ‘gunwriters. I again disagree with your statement. The following information was excerpted from another Forum; I’ve extracted it as it identifies a variable relating to belted cases that is often ignored by those supporting their use: I apologize to all if posting data from another Forum is not allowed. I’ve always understood that headspacing should be set at .002” inch for maximum accuracy and reliability. If headspacing on the belt, as noted in the above quoted measurements, the 8mm RemMag, a SAAMI 66K psi cartridge, will have .008” headspace when using Remington brass and the 375 H&H, a SAAMI 63Kpsi cartridge, will have .007” headspace when using with Remington brass or .005” headspace when using Winchester brass. Isn’t this a bit sloppy! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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caphoward, I agree the tolerances are a problem between brands but so are the gunsmiths that do not check headspace appropriately (use too much force), use a "go" gage with a shim for a "no-go", or use their gages for years without having them re-certified. I have even seen gunsmiths use a factory cartridge for a standard when chambering. I can imagine the furor if one major manufacturers weapons would not chamber another’s brass when both were supposedly “SAAMI”. I guess, I would buy the smallest brass with the highest quality control that is readily available and buy it in sufficient quantity to load enough for any hunting trip where that brand may not be available. I would then have the rifle chambered to that size so as to prevent brass stretching and promote accuracy. One drawback is that one has to make a custom headspace for this gage, kind of expensive. Sometimes, there is just no way to compensate for the action taken by the big manufacturers. Sorry to not give real great advice but this is the solution I used when I had a rifle chambered for a belted cartridge. I also explained this in great detail when I sold it. One of the benefits in choosing the “smallest” headspace is that you can always open it up, kind of hard to glue those shavings back together if you go with the biggest measurement. | |||
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WHO REALLY CARES?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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They are just something that is on a fair percentage of cartridges. Warner tool company makes some very accurate 300 Win Mag rifles that are chambered with regard of the length of the batch of cartridges you intend to use. I like the Euro-metric cartridges: 6.5x68 5.6x57 6.5x57 and 6.5x65RWS 7x64B 8x68 9.3x57,62,64,66,70 I used to hold my nose a little higher if I caught a fish with a fly I tied from feathers, pieces of hide or Peacocks that I had killed or scavenged. In that world the coolest guys/girls shoot the first produced cartridge that has the attributes for his/her intended use. When I tumble/polish a big load of brass I never notice the presence or absence of a gurtle (belt). Every basket of fresh brass just looks beautiful and wicked in equal measures. LD  | |||
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Riiiight! That's why Norma, Remington and Winchester cases all shoot MOA or better in my Mod 70 .375. The rifle doesn't seem to care, so I don't, as previously mentioned...  | |||
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Belted cartridges are difficult to reload and inaccurate? Who exactly is STUPID enough to believe that load of crap? Give me a break! I'm out of this thread!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Some people over estimate the tolerance needed for proper headspacing. As long as it is within the tolerance of the go/nogo gauges, it is safe. We are not talking tenths, but .002 to .003 inches. Not sure that the belt harms accuracy or makes it any more difficult to reload. Might be a stretch. But it does reduce case capacity. John | |||
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 Mike I’m presuming your comment was in jest.Rob...not bagging on you here, I doubt anyone really gives a hoot one way or the other. I’m sure everyone on this forum will purchase what they want to purchase and this thread will have zero impact upon that decision. To All Participants: A belted cartridge that is not also a shoulder-less cartridge case…at least to me…is like a guy who simultaneously wears a belt and suspenders (braces for the Brits)…and the unasked question, “What happened to this guy to make him so paranoid about his pants falling down?” I’ve no issue regarding the accuracy of belted cartridges. I’ve owned two very accurate rifles chambered in 257 Weatherby and 264 WinMag as well as a number of equally accurate rifles chambered for non-belted cartridges. I also have friends with much larger selections of belted and non-belted chambered rifles that vary from accurate to extremely accurate. I’m new to reloading rifle cartridges however virtually all of my friends reload and they all have one thing in common…they all adjust their reloading dies to headspace off the shoulder, regardless of where it’s a belted or non-belted cartridge they’re reloading for. To me this just begs the question, “What’s the need for a belted cartridge case if you’re going to headspace on the shoulder with your reloaded cartridges?” And ladies and gentlemen, that was the motivation for initiating this thread. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
Yes. | ||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
Available case capacity, available rifle, component price and availability are a few that come to mind. For example, I would always pick a 300 Winchester over 300 WSM because I prefer long actions. | ||
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I really do not mine a belt being on my bullet cases. I mean it doesn't inter fear with shooting the rifle. | |||
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I understand the economy of scale and that truly is a consideration factor in cartridge selection. And I understand you preference for long actions over short actions. However, were Ruger/Hornady to produce a full length derivative of the 375 Ruger in .308 caliber, which I compute would have a 7gr capacity advantage over the 300 WinMag at the same cartridge overall length, would you still select the 300 WinMag or would you give a serious look to the new 300 Ruger? A properly chambered rifle should be just as accurate with or without a belt…and some of the most accurate rifles are chambered for belted cartridges…no disagreement here. Myself, I prefer my cartridges with either a belt or with suspenders but not with both. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I have a W J Jeffrey 375H&H that is an absolute tac holer plus one or 2 CZ's that are the same. Re 300WM or 300WSM becuase of the long version short action, I have 30.06's and 300WSM's and for practical reasons - like the 30.06 is much easier to load (top feed single rounds) than the 300WSM because of the short case, you tend to push down on the shoulder so it doesn't go in straight or as easily. Just my HO. | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
In that case I would still pick the 300 Winchester because I prefer either the M70 or Rem 700 over the Ruger action. However, the 300 Ruger was in those rifles I might still pick the 300 Winchester because of brass availability in Australia. If I wanted bigger than the 300 Winchester then 300 Wby would be on the agenda over the 300 Ruger and brass would be the issue. My point is I have no preference with rimless and belted and if both calibres were identical then other factors would determine my choice. | ||
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Mike if I didn’t live in the USA then I’d likely be concerned about the availability of the Hornady’s 375 Ruger formed or basic brass also; here fortunately their per 50 box is no more expensive than Winchester or Remington 300 WinMag brass and much cheaper than Norma in the same caliber from the major web vendors…though I’m sure the current USA administration will again be attempting to change the situation though. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I believe this is an accepted fact today. But an insignificant matter on good old designs. New ctgs dont need both - agreed. Customers and makers today both understand. The belt does not hurt anything either, all the BS not withstanding. Now a rebated rim, is at least a serious consideration. The reason for the popularity of many old ctgs like 375 is two fold. First is great historic provenance, like the 404j. Although infamy too, for some other cases. I wont stir that pot today. The second reason (IMHO the main reason) is certain rounds have become a standard. Like 30-06 and 375H&H. This allows gun builders to focus on gun features and not struggle in selection of calibers or weasle on action designs. Anyone who builds a safari rifle offers a 375HH period. Any shop that stocks ammo will stock 30-06 and depending where you are should also stock 375HH. Standards is a wonderful thing, just as are choices. My key objection regarding the new ruger ctgs. What is a medium size gun dealer expected to keep on his shelf? All of these: 416Rigby, 416Ruger, 416Remington, 416Weatherby? All this to sell 4 boxes a year? Now, what if I want a Winchester AND a Ruger rifle, they are in a 416 war right now. Belt is not or should not be an issue here, it dont matter. They all work fine. Generally in life (my view of the world) if something works you stick, if it has a significant deficiency you improve and over time replaces the old standard. What makes me sad is how the old 7x57 never caught on, or died in USA, while the 7mm08 is massively popular. Why is that? I use a 7mm08, it is great, but what was wrong with the 7x57? You see utter stupidity like this situation and thats why some of us get nervous when we see improvements (in marketing only) on the 375HH or 416Rigby. | |||
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The cartridge case to belt or not to belt? Now day it a non issue. Everyone knows the only true way to establish headspace on a cartridge case is to use a whaling big rim flange like the 45-70 Gov. 303 Britsh, 30-30 win.  Everyone now knows that belts are not required on cases with adequate sized shoulders, just think of the 35 Whelen, had it been brought to market with a belt everyone would have one. But as presented to the gun buying public it got a reputation of iffy headspace control with the badly chosen shoulder angle, as a belted ctg its shoulder would not be given a thought (except for re-loaders, got to watch that case stretch).  The 1950 and 60's so many ctg.'s were developed. How to distinguish your product from the rest. That was the question for the core pirate marketing guys. Call it a MAGNUM, give it a belt, the dumb ass public only knows what we tell them lets tell 'em a magnum got to have belt (even if it is just for the image). Now the public knows about ctg. belts. If a ctg. needs one like the 375H&H its accepted. From the re-loaders view we take into consideration the small design differences of each ctg. and load it accordingly. | |||
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FB…Myself I don’t expect the local gun dealer to carry any cartridges or reloading supplies on his shelf that he doesn’t have great expectation of selling within his established recycling schedule…whatever his financial/restocking schedule may be. I guess I have issue with the individual who will only buy one box, or four boxes, of a specific caliber/brand cartridge per year and then complain if it’s not carried on the shelf of the local gun dealer. They should order for themselves off the internet and have it delivered to their doorstep. Or show a little class and special order with your local dealer upfront so that both of you are happy with the situation; I’ve not met a dealer who is unwilling to special order one box or “x” number of boxes of a cartridges or to add it to their cartridge order when they have the expectation that it’ll be sold. I believe Remington sucked big time by delivering the Whelen with a slow twist rate to allow stabilization of pistol bullets rather than delivering a fast twist rate to stabilize the heavier 270gr-300gr bullets…totally left the door open for the 338-06 to kill it due to the fast twist rate delivered with that cartridge. GJ…Absolutely correct in this regards but only when writing about your major advertiser’s cartridges. There was nothing wrong with the Norma belted magnum rounds except the .358 Norma Magnum was deemed “to punishing” by the pundits of the day. I’m sure however I’m sure they’d have sung a different tune had it been the .358 Winchester Magnum or the .358 Remington Magnum rather than the Norma Magnum…it’d have been deemed a right manly cartridge by them all. Just pure politics. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Broomstick My 300 Win Mag, has a belt and my 257 WBY has one also. I'm not to go thru all my rifles looking for a belt. But I don't think the belt is done for. | |||
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I dont expect it either, thats why all things being more/less equall it is nice to stick with the old standards. IMHO.
I agree, and I dont complain, we are lucky anyone is willing to do gun business in my state.
Not in my state.
Exactly right again. But that does not negate the advantages for us too have popular standards available world wide and lasting over a lifetime.
Yes, the 308 and 358 Norma looked like very good rounds to me. But who came first, 300 weatherby and 375H&H. Not sure about the 30's. And, what did we gain from 300win, 338win? Shorter rounds in an action that ended up long enough for the 375HH that refused to die? An undersize 458win, in an action that would hold the Lott size ctg! Good thread, and hope I am not hijacking. Obviously I am still stewing over the Ruger 375/416. | |||
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I have one belted rifle: a M70 in 375 H&H. I have had rim interference cause jams in feeding. Had to pull the bolt back and push down on the stack to clear. What a pain to reload for. I had to buy a special sinclair cartridge headspace gage to figure out just how much to set the shoulder back. The distance from the base to the shoulder is not controlled. Rimless rounds are a better idea. People who like belted cartridges probably like stick shift cars and rotary phones. I'll take the automatic transmission if you please. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by enfieldspares: A belt would have made a lot of sense on the 400 Whelen! Had owners of .400's NOT RESIZED USEING '06 DIES,,the intended .458 diam. shoulder would have been,and IS,plenty of shoulder,,but some will always go cheap!!! a good horse,a churchill sized Maduro,a true rifle,and 50 year old brandy.................. | |||
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Other than the 300 H&H and straight walled carts. where it was needed, and maybe the 375 H&H because it was close on the 300's heals, the belt was a marketing gimmick and nothing else. You couldn't sell a new Magnum whizbang cartridge if it didn't have a belt on it. Why, if it was to be a magnum, it must have a belt. I don't care if carts. have belts or not; it's not an issue in performance. | |||
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