I'm sure this has been discussed to death here, and I apologize if I'm just rekindling pissed-on fires.

It's tax season, so I'm filtering out the old gun safe. I also recently bought a heym 470, so I'm trimming down the arsenal a bit. I've already decided to ditch the 375 m70 (still for sale). My conundrum arises when I try and decide whether to discard the 416 remy custom shop remy or the m70 458 Lott.

Read where Terry Weiland stated that he had no idea why anyone would own a 416 over a Lott. I know a Lott can reproduce the 416's ballistics, but does it really make the 416 in the closet nothing but a waste of space. Which should I dump off?

Thanks for any opinions/advice fellas, and I'm really not trying to start the win mag/Lott. feud.

Since you have your doubles, keep the .416, & dump the Lott. Without the doubles, keep the Lott.

Something I've definitely put into consideration, and I'd hate to get rid of that purdy little remy, but my brain keeps tellin me the smart move is to keep the Lott. Thanks for the advice.

My vote:

Keep the DRs.

Keep the 375H&H and the 458 Lott.

Dump the 416 Remmie.

Keith

Wales, I vote you keep them all......it's nice to have options....... If you need the money, sell something of your wife's!

Thanks for the suggestions fellas. I still haven't heard any comments on whether owning a 458 Lott makes retaining a 416 redundant... really the reason for the thread.

Marko- I thought about selling the wife's dog, but I'm not monetarilly secure enough to get a divorce anytime soon.

if it was a question of money, the m70 will bring more...

utility? keep the lott and 470, sell the 416 and 375...

With all due respect to Terry, the Lott is more than a handful, for me, and what to chose depends on what you will (eventually) hunt. If just collecting big bores, what does it matter?

The 416's, or a 458 WM/470/etc., are all anyone would ever need on anything. A 416 is plenty on buff. If you buy a 450/400 then the 416 is probably redundant, but should have a good, scoped bolt gun for cats.

If it was I, I would stick with the 470 and the 416. But there is little reasoning in the choices that I or anyone else makes in choosing big bores!

Just starting out as a kid, you should pick out a good double and a good bolt and stick with them for the rest of your life. Intimacy with your rifles will probably pay off in the long run. That's what I should have done!

If your going to hunt elephant then keep the 470 and the Lott. I like to have a back up stopping rifle when on Safari just in case. I see little use for any of the 416s. They are neither fish nor fowl for my use. If I need to reach out it won't be for buff or elephants and the stoppers will handle them from 125 yards in with no problems. If I need to reach out beyond 125 yards for other game then a scoped 375 bolt gun makes the most sense to me.

465H&H

I have never been able to tell any difference in the killing effect of the Lott over the .416.
By the same token I don't see a lot of difference in the 30-06 and the 300 magnums.

I would put more emphasis on bullet construction and proper bullet placement.

I can shoot the .416 or 404 better than I can the 458 Lott as I find the recoil of the Lott a bit distasteful, although I can shoot it, I don't enjoy shooting it..Why should I take the fun out of shooting. Guess that is why I sold my .470 Searcy and bought another 450-400-3" Searcy, I couldn't see much difference and I love shooting the 450-400 off my chin.

I think the Lott can kill an elephant with ONE bullet [a solid ]

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
With all due respect to Terry, the Lott is more than a handful, for me, and what to chose depends on what you will (eventually) hunt. If just collecting big bores, what does it matter?

The 416's, or a 458 WM/470/etc., are all anyone would ever need on anything. A 416 is plenty on buff. If you buy a 450/400 then the 416 is probably redundant, but should have a good, scoped bolt gun for cats.

If it was I, I would stick with the 470 and the 416. But there is little reasoning in the choices that I or anyone else makes in choosing big bores!

Just starting out as a kid, you should pick out a good double and a good bolt and stick with them for the rest of your life. Intimacy with your rifles will probably pay off in the long run. That's what I should have done!

Am I still considered a kid at 26...? that might be the best new I've heard all day. If only that meant I didn't have to work, pay taxes, and feed the wife and her little dog too.

Definitely sage advice about keeping a couple for the long haul. Hence the point of the thread. I've finally collected all the firearms I really had my eye set on; trouble is, I can't keep them all.

I got rid of the 375, as a my 338 or 35 WHelen will be my pg rifle (and elk gun). The 416 shoots just as flat as the 375 imo, so I don't see any reason holding onto the 375.

I'm going to keep the 416 and sell the 458 Lott (look for M70 Lott and 375 on classifieds). The 450/400 makes the 416 redundant, but I won't put a scope on a double, so it makes since to keep the remy. Thanks for the input.

...........I,m kind of in the same conundrum....The Lott is a great round ,,But the 416 is easier to hit well with and hitting well is what it,s all about .....................thats why so many say the 375 works so well ....I can shoot just as well with my 416 Rem as I can with a 375,or an 06 or probably a223 ........But I can,t shoot my Lott that well .................I can shoot a 500 a-Sq as well as I can a Lott tho and the 500 is Alot [no pun intended ] bigger ........ .......mayby I just need to put a brake on it ....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
With all due respect to Terry, the Lott is more than a handful, for me, and what to chose depends on what you will (eventually) hunt. If just collecting big bores, what does it matter?

The 416's, or a 458 WM/470/etc., are all anyone would ever need on anything. A 416 is plenty on buff. If you buy a 450/400 then the 416 is probably redundant, but should have a good, scoped bolt gun for cats.

If it was I, I would stick with the 470 and the 416. But there is little reasoning in the choices that I or anyone else makes in choosing big bores!

Just starting out as a kid, you should pick out a good double and a good bolt and stick with them for the rest of your life. Intimacy with your rifles will probably pay off in the long run. That's what I should have done!

I agree with Will and prefer the .416 to the .458. I don't care what Terry Wieland has to say, the .416 is much more versatile than the Lott. However, given what's in your gun safe, I think I would hang on to the .375 and the .470. That way, you have the best of both worlds. A good versatile cartridge in your .375 and well as a good stopper for backup work or in think cover.

Dave

I'm thinking with a 375 and lott the 416 is redundent.

I realize this opinnion is akin to child molestation or sodomy in some folks minds but the .416 Remington is way more versatile than the old .375 H&H with a 300 gr. Barnes X at 3000 FPS and a 450 gr. Woodleigh at near 2400 FPS and lots of stuff in between...If you can accept the recoil and I can't see much difference in them recoil wise..

I will still always have a .375 and a 416 Rem at all times..I also have a 404 off and on, and a double of some sort from time to time, presently a 450-400..I lean towards 40 caliber as the best of the best, all things considered.

Way more versatile for what Ray? All the world's game? I have owned both the .375 and the .416 and I can say without pause that the .375 is more conducive to accurate shot placement than the .416 at longer range. The .416 kicks harder all the way around. Sorry but a 270 grain spitzer at @ 2800 fps is all you need for any non-dangerous game at any reasonable range and as you stated in your last post, shot placement is what matters in killing any game, not caliber. I truly believe that the bigger the bullet, the better for dangerous game but I will never believe the large bores are better all-arounders than the medium bores for all game. I think you have your mind on African dangerous game when you make statements like that. But, as always, I do respect your opinion and I am trying to get my mind around this one.
Take care,

jfm

The 416 is a bit of "neither fish, nor fowl", but it will do about everything the 375 or 458 Lott will, without having the Lott kick the Snott out of you. Most shooters will and DO flinch, when shooting the Lott, a major consideration, IMO.

I had a Lott, didn't enjoy shooting it & the recoil made good shot placement diff. for me. I sold it, had the 404j made & now see no real reason for a 375h&h. If I had the 470 dbl. I would keep the 375h&h or the 416 & dump the Lott. The Lott can be versatile, w/ lighter bullets, but recoil is still up there. You have a stopper in the 470 & that is what the Lott is to me, a stopper. One rifle for all of Africa, the 416s edge the 375 by just abit on DG IMO. It's tough having to make such decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Thanks for the suggestions fellas. I still haven't heard any comments on whether owning a 458 Lott makes retaining a 416 redundant... really the reason for the thread.

No, IMHO. The 375 makes the 416 redundant (or visa versa depending on your druthers about bullet weight) and the 470 definitely makes the Lott redundant.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I'm sure this has been discussed to death here, and I apologize if I'm just rekindling pissed-on fires.

It's tax season, so I'm filtering out the old gun safe. I also recently bought a heym 470, so I'm trimming down the arsenal a bit. I've already decided to ditch the 375 m70 (still for sale). My conundrum arises when I try and decide whether to discard the 416 remy custom shop remy or the m70 458 Lott.

Read where Terry Weiland stated that he had no idea why anyone would own a 416 over a Lott. I know a Lott can reproduce the 416's ballistics, but does it really make the 416 in the closet nothing but a waste of space. Which should I dump off?

Thanks for any opinions/advice fellas, and I'm really not trying to start the win mag/Lott. feud.

I would keep the .375 and the 470. The .375 is great for the majority of your big game hunting and the .470 covers the rest. This makes the .416 and the lott redundant.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley

I would keep the .375 and the 470. The .375 is great for the majority of your big game hunting and the .470 covers the rest. This makes the .416 and the lott redundant.

My opinion also.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh

I thought about selling the wife's dog, but I'm not monetarilly secure enough to get a divorce anytime soon.

My thoughts also. My wife just got a pup bulldog and that thing is thoroughly spoiled. Every time it goes poop someone is there to pick up after him. No one ever offered to wipe my butt.

Namibiahunter

......Things other than dangerous game I shoot with my 416 Rem Mag..... ....And I need to remember , head shots on coyotes also.... Now , with the GSC SP the 416 is even more versatile

I have a 458 lott, 416 rem, 375 h&h. IMO the lott does not make the 416 redundant. I used my lott on buffalo and in the near future elephant. The 416 will be on leopard and lion. The 375 on plains game.

maddenwh,

The .458 Lott is simply not as versatile as the .416.

The .416 has a flatter trajectory than the .458 Lott, and would be capable of 250yd. shots on say, a sable or roan, as well as a 30yd. shot on an elephant.

The .458 Lott may have more 'oomph' on target, but its range is more limited (but still better than a .458 Win. Mag.).

George

I have both the 416Rem and the Lott.

The 416 is a reworked Mod 70 and the 458 Lott is a CZ 550. I like both but like George, feel that the 416Rem would be slightly more versatile than the Lott, given the downrange capability of the 416.

If I had to sell one it would be the Lott. I guess it comes down to which rifle one likes best too!

I know the SD of the 400 grained Lott is different than that of the 400 grained 416, but does a 400 grained 458 going 2,400 fps really have much of a different drop rate than that of a 400 grained 416 going 2400 fps? Just curious, as this was what I was really wanting to know. Thanks guys.

Actually, while looking at some trajectory charts for Federal ammo, the difference in drop is only 1.5" at 200yds. and 6" or so out at 300yds. (assuming 100yd. zeroes and 'standard' velocities: 400grs .416@2370fps, 500grs .458@2300fps).

George

quote:

Originally posted by CARLOSTHEJACKAL:
I have a 458 lott, 416 rem, 375 h&h. IMO the lott does not make the 416 redundant. I used my lott on buffalo and in the near future elephant. The 416 will be on leopard and lion. The 375 on plains game.

....................If I was to hunt Africa I would want the same battery for the same animals

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Actually, while looking at some trajectory charts for Federal ammo, the difference in drop is only 1.5" at 200yds. and 6" or so out at 300yds. (assuming 100yd. zeroes and 'standard' velocities: 400grs .416@2370fps, 500grs .458@2300fps).

George

..and thus the reason that some see the 458 Lott as in fact more versatile than the 416. Also the reason, I guess, that Terry Weiland made the claim that owning a 416 was a bad idea because a Lott is so much more versatile.

I still don't agree with Messr. Weiland, but I will concede that a Lott can nearly do anything a 416 can, and perhaps more. I guess the one advantage of the 416 would be the capacity to load 300 or 350 grained bullets at flatter trajectories while still retaining reasonable sectional density.

George- thanks for the ballistics stats. Exactly what I was looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I know the SD of the 400 grained Lott is different than that of the 400 grained 416, but does a 400 grained 458 going 2,400 fps really have much of a different drop rate than that of a 400 grained 416 going 2400 fps? Just curious, as this was what I was really wanting to know. Thanks guys.

..........................................................................................................................In the Barnes manual [ that is the last manual they list the 400 gr X ] @ 2400 fps, sighted @100 yrds its 5.6 " low @200 and 19.6" low @300 . 43.4" low @ 400 yrds ..the .416 400 gr .@2400 fps sighted @100 yrds -5.4 @200 -18.7 @300 --41.2 .......................There is about 300 ft.lbs ..difference in favor of the 416 @ 300 yrds ..........I think all things being equal the 458 Lott with the 400 gr GSC HV bullet would be pretty Ideal .................................................................Problem is alot of people on here will tell you ,,you probably couldn,t kill a cow with a bullet in the 458 lighter than the 450 gr......people out in lala land .......I better not fly off on that rant ......P.S. The 400 gr .458 dia. X bullet expands to.9 " .. it is one BIG hunk of copper .... ..........................The 416 is the much more versitile rifle ,,, What does Wieland think the bullets will bounce off an elephant ???

maddenwh,

Those stats surprised me, too.

The .470 Capstick has been touted as a 200yd. cartridge for big game, and it has practically identical ballistics as the .458 Lott. I guess it's a good choice for a 'one-gun safari'.

George

I own both the 458 Lott and the 416 Rem Mag. If I were going after the big bears I would take my 416 Rem but if I were going after an Elephant
I would take my Lott.

IF you load the Lott with a 450gr bullet to get a SD of over 3, it's trajectory is virtually identical to the .416 out to 300yds.

In the Barnes Reloading Manual #3, with both rounds loaded to 2400fps and zeroed at 100yds, the .416 is -5.41@200yds and the .458 is -5.52@200yds. At 300yds the .416 is -18.74 with 3389 ft-lbs. of energy remaining, while the .458 is -19.24 with 3623 ft-lbs. of energy remaining.

Obviously, as noted by several posters above, the .416 wins the "shootability" contest in regards to recoil, but the numbers are interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
With all due respect to Terry, the Lott is more than a handful, for me, and what to chose depends on what you will (eventually) hunt. If just collecting big bores, what does it matter?

The 416's, or a 458 WM/470/etc., are all anyone would ever need on anything. A 416 is plenty on buff. If you buy a 450/400 then the 416 is probably redundant, but should have a good, scoped bolt gun for cats.

If it was I, I would stick with the 470 and the 416. But there is little reasoning in the choices that I or anyone else makes in choosing big bores!

Just starting out as a kid, you should pick out a good double and a good bolt and stick with them for the rest of your life. Intimacy with your rifles will probably pay off in the long run. That's what I should have done!

Will, that is the best advice you have given. I read your book (twice), Harlands book, Boddingtons book, Woods book and now am on Robertson's book on buff - your advice is well heeded and dead on...

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
maddenwh,

Those stats surprised me, too.

The .470 Capstick has been touted as a 200yd. cartridge for big game, and it has practically identical ballistics as the .458 Lott. I guess it's a good choice for a 'one-gun safari'.

George

Kind of what I've been getting at. If you're willing to to site in for a couple of different loads, the Lott would make a great 1 gun battery. I've got 550 grained boolitz going ~2100 fps and 400 grained boolitz going 2,350 fps that I shoot out of my Lott. I've got a QD system on it, so I assume I could site in two different scopes with each load and be set for anything... thing is, taking one gun is no fun.

quote:

Originally posted by DGR Shooter:
IF you load the Lott with a 450gr bullet to get a SD of over 3, it's trajectory is virtually identical to the .416 out to 300yds.

In the Barnes Reloading Manual #3, with both rounds loaded to 2400fps and zeroed at 100yds, the .416 is -5.41@200yds and the .458 is -5.52@200yds. At 300yds the .416 is -18.74 with 3389 ft-lbs. of energy remaining, while the .458 is -19.24 with 3623 ft-lbs. of energy remaining.

Obviously, as noted by several posters above, the .416 wins the "shootability" contest in regards to recoil, but the numbers are interesting.

Thanks for the info. Really puts into perspective what I'm getting at.

........With your 470 , the heavy bullet Lott load is redundant , not that it wouldn,t be redundant .......I was shooting my 416 this after noon.and it occurred to me that it is the easiest shooting large medium or large bore I,ve ever had and it is a joy to shoot ...400 gr bullet @ 2400 fps....or a 300 gr bullet at 2830 fps .....

The 416 rem mag can use from 300 to 450 gr bullets.The 416 with the 350-300 gr bullets is alot flatter shooting than you think.I love shooting my 416 rem mags.I have 6 416s and I skipped the 375 because its not that much better than the 338 win mag to make a difference and I sold both of my 458 win mags because I was not going to use them for elephant or buffalo any time soon.I agree with Craig Bodding that a pair the 338 win mag and the 416 Rem mag will serve you for any big game on earth.I can shoot my 416s very well.I had to stop shooting the 470 capstick after 6 shots it needs a break to shoot it very much.I still use the barnes 325 gr at 2800 fps which is super flat shooting and hits very hard.I use the 410 gr woodlieghs for my up close and personal gun.The 458 lott is an awesome gun but it is above alot of peoples limits and is not nearly as versitle as the 416s are.I bet the 416s aout number the 458 lott in popularity 100 to 1 .I do want a 416 Ruger for a short bolt throw and smoother case without going to the hudge rigby case.I have three 416s that are 8.5-9 pounds with a scope and have 22" barrels.They are very handy and I can shoot them very accuractly and very fast.A 470 capstick and a 416 rem mag make a good combo if you really need it because you can makes cases from the 416 rem mag.I just dont really need a 458 lott.If I shoot a griz with my 416 rem mag and I cant kill it with one or twop shots something is wrong.I use my 416 with 350 gr mag tips hunting moose alot in the timber and thickets.Its good to know you have it when you need it.Its also my tent gun at night for bears.You can never have too big of a gun for bears at night.I just tried to trim down my reloading to mostly 338 anmd 416 bullets.I couldnt find 458 bras when I had either of my 458s so I stocked up on 416 rem mag brass and have a few life times supplies.

The 325 grain .416 bullet at 2800 fps is the same (sectional density wise) as shooting the 265 grain .375 bullet at 2800 fps. Both have sectional densities of .268 and .269 respectively. Do you really want a large bore for shooting long range (most likely plains) game? Ballistic co-efficient numbers are higher for the various .375 bullets than for the various .416 bullets. All being equal, it appears the .375 bullets are better long range performers. The .375 shoots softer than the .416 all the way around which is conducive to more accurate shooting at long range. What do you need a light .416 bullet at high velocity for? I think this is a waste of time for a large bore rifle. This is more the double duty for a medium bore rifle. The .416 costs about twice as much to feed as does the .375. The .375 is quite a bit more gun when compared to the .338 Winchester magnum when all things are considered equally. Pair your .338 mags with your .416 mags and have fun. I agree they are a good pair but if you'd like one gun to do it all it's still hard to beat the .375 for price, accuracy, killing power and low recoil. Nothing better than one gun to do it all with.

jfm