I went to the range yesterday shot offhand at 50 and 100.POI was all over the place and groups were bad.Got back and checked the rifle made sure everything was OK for today.Started off the bench to check the rifle.Here are the results.If anyone remembers in the passed I suspected this barrel to be shot out and poor right from the beginning especially with solids.Guess what? I was right all along.I got my hopes up last time with some softs but that didn't last and I am right back to were I started from.The first target pictured is at 25yds,second 50 and last 100yds-single shot fired at all distances.[URL= ]25yds[/URL][URL= ]50yds[/URL][URL= ]100yds[/URL]Aside from the barrel,I find my Ruger much better at handling the recoil.I think the weight destribution and design of the Ruger makes it a much more easier rifle to shoot.The CZ nearly broke my nose and thumb.I think it's barrel is too long and light.Once you hold the pistol grip,there is not much room between your hand and the rear of the bolt.Instead of wrapping my thumb around the grip,i like placing it along the stock so it points at the rear of the bolt.I shoot better this way but cannot do this with my CZ-there is no room.This is caused by the comb of the stock being too close to bolt,IMO.I also had three jams that occured when the RN DGX tips were slightly flattened from recoil.It seems that the only bullets it feeds are Woodleigh RN's and RN solids.This is my second CZ that is behaving like this and was shot out with less than 200 or 300rds.Like the CZ458wm the CZ 458 lott is even harder to shoot with max loads.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If anyone remembers in the passed I suspected this barrel to be shot out and poor right from the beginning especially with solids.Guess what? I was right all along.

Guess what? I still think you're FOS.

What are the chances it was "poor right from the beginning" AND "shot out"?????

Give me a break! Maybe you got a rifle with a defective barrel, but it sure as heck was not "shot out" by a few hundred rounds.

Remember you said steel jacked solids were to blame because they are so hard on barrels?

Funny that a bunch of elephant cropping officers were able to shoot thousands of steel jacketed solids before needing to replace their barrels....

I sure dont share your ideas around griping the rifle, but for me holding on is priority one and I forget any offhand target stance like strapping in or holding my palm under the stock. But; having said that you have shot some fantastic groups and if the Ruger fits you well and CZ does not, I suggest you dump the CZ and stick with the Rugers.

Funny about the keyholes, I guess that means the bullet was not stabilized. For one of your prior issued, I had suggested a sanity check with factory ammo. Same here, I think. Or just forget CZ, why fool around with a gun that does not feel feel right when shooting. How many 458's do you need? Get another Ruger, they make a great 416 Rigby.

BTW, I also have similar feeding issue with my CZ in 458Lott with Hornady flat nose solids. I was told thats an easy fix. If, I was to take this in harms way, I would send it to AHR and get a level I upgrade. I am not, so I probably wont. I do have another CZ with AHR rework and it like a whole different gun. You be amazed. They can also slim down the stock or restock with a slender stock, and aluminum bedding too.

I think the problem exists between the finger and the trigger

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If anyone remembers in the passed I suspected this barrel to be shot out and poor right from the beginning especially with solids.Guess what? I was right all along.

Guess what? I still think you're FOS.

What are the chances it was "poor right from the beginning" AND "shot out"?????

Give me a break! Maybe you got a rifle with a defective barrel, but it sure as heck was not "shot out" by a few hundred rounds.

Remember you said steel jacked solids were to blame because they are so hard on barrels?

Funny that a bunch of elephant cropping officers were able to shoot thousands of steel jacketed solids before needing to replace their barrels....

Both my CZ's could not give me a half decent group,off the bench, using steel jcketed solids from the beginning with any powder.CZ-a rifle that cannot feed nearly anything even when it was worked on by a good gunsmith.CZ-a rifle that can't shoot solids.CZ-a rifle that can shoot softs but the bore will only do it up to 2 or 3 hundred rds.CZ-a rifle that cannot handle big bore recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I sure dont share your ideas around griping the rifle, but for me holding on is priority one and I forget any offhand target stance like strapping in or holding my palm under the stock. But; having said that you have shot some fantastic groups and if the Ruger fits you well and CZ does not, I suggest you dump the CZ and stick with the Rugers.I just tried my Win mod 70 stock and it has the same room the Ruger has.

Funny about the keyholes, I guess that means the bullet was not stabilized. For one of your prior issued, I had suggested a sanity check with factory ammo. Same here, I think. Or just forget CZ, why fool around with a gun that does not feel feel right when shooting. How many 458's do you need? Get another Ruger, they make a great 416 Rigby.

BTW, I also have similar feeding issue with my CZ in 458Lott with Hornady flat nose solids. I was told thats an easy fix. If, I was to take this in harms way, I would send it to AHR and get a level I upgrade. I am not, so I probably wont. I do have another CZ with AHR rework and it like a whole different gun. You be amazed. They can also slim down the stock or restock with a slender stock, and aluminum bedding too.

fourbore,it seems that most CZ's can't feed for crap.Softs can be somewhat flattened by recoil and feed like FN bullets and cause issues in rifles that have a difficult time feeding to begin with.On the subject on holding the rifle,when I used to shoot my scoped 308,offhand at 200yds I felt that I had better control when my thumb, on my trigger hand, lay on top of the pistol grip rather than wrapped around it.I think it makes for better results in dry-firing too.This particular CZ stock design does does not make for much room between your trigger hand and the rear of the bolt.I feel that more room is needed to comfortably shoot a big bore.

In several other threads, you have recommended red locktite for gun screws. This is wrong, and if you dont agree thats fine, but just so someone else does not make a big mistake let me set this right.

Red is for perminant application and if applied properly the screws will snap rather than come out. No future removal. The proper locktite is blue. I prefer none.

For removal of screws properly set with red locktite a torch is needed. The red hot heat will break the bond. Obviously not feasible for firearms application.

I believe you also stated else where you will clean a barrel until you arm is tired. That might be a problem.

If you dont have one now, you need a guide that inserts in place of the bolt and then always push threw from the back. NO BACK AND FORTH, just one pass. A little copper is no big deal, but if it bothers you then I suggest letting the bore soak overnight with a copper solvent. The alternatly push threw a brush and a patch. Easy gets it done.

You have a high $$$, custom gun on order. I suggest you do not take that gun apart or scrub the hell out of the bore. I suppose the gunsmith could lap the bore to reduce fouling. I am not an expert on that fancy stuff.

I hope I dont sound like a jerk. I know it can be hard to express ideas or advise on the web and always use the same respectful tone and body language as in-person conversation.

Please take this in good spirit and try and go easy with your new custom rifle. It reads like a real treasure, you are a lucky guy.

The recoil on a 458 lott will knock everything loose once it is fired REGULARLY.Those groups you saw came only from my torqueing the screw and making sure it stayed tight.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I believe you also stated else where you will clean a barrel until you arm is tired. That might be a problem.

If you dont have one now, you need a guide that inserts in place of the bolt and then always push threw from the back. NO BACK AND FORTH, just one pass. A little copper is no big deal, but if it bothers you then I suggest letting the bore soak overnight with a copper solvent. The alternatly push threw a brush and a patch. Easy gets it done.

You have a high $$$, custom gun on order. I suggest you do not take that gun apart of scrub the hell out of the bore. I suppose the gunsmith could lap the bore to reduce fouling. I am not an expert on that fancy stuff.

I hope I dont sound like a jerk. I know it can be hard to express ideas or advise on the web and always use the same respectful tone and body language as in-person conversation.

Please take this in good spirit and try and go easy with your new custom rifle. It reads like a real treasure, you are a lucky guy.

Thanks for the kind words,fourbore.At times I thought I had issues with the bore on my Rugers but I proved that it was not the bore but problay just a small change in the rifle bedding that caused a slight change in the POI and was corrected by adjusting the sight elevation.When the Ruger bore goes 3000 rds and can group three in an inch or so then I believe that my bore cleaning method is fine.The latest method I tried seems to be working better at cleaning my bore than ever before.What I do now is soak the 3 inch patch with JB like never before-on both sides then again and again until it becomes soft and feels like the paste itself.Then I wrap it around a new brush and pass it quickly completely through the bore.Then,I short stroke it up and down the bore without pushing it through.I then finish by passing it completely through the bore back and fourth,several times.This way saves brushes,patches and time and cleans much better.On the subject of custom rifles,I have two on order one is now being stocked the other a fully integral barrelled Satterlee action waiting it's turn.I am really looking forward to shooting each and seeing in what way,if at all one is better at shooting offhand accurately etc...These will be my last two rifles,BTW.

George,
have the CZ barrels pulled and send them to me, please

Wonder what the chance is that the moron has been cleaning from the muzzle with a steel rod all these years? What's the chance your crown is damaged or looks like a funnel? Have you slugged your barrel and checked that the bullets actually fit? Not sure you will comprehend any of this, but its good for a laugh anyway!-Rob

I had a similar problem with a rifle when I changed scopes one time. After putting the new bases and scope on, the bullets keyholed through the 200 yard target. After a bit of study and observation I determined that my boresighting was placing the bullets in the dirt a couple of feet in front of the target and the bullets were bouncing through the target sideways. Check the dirt.

I have owned over 30 CZs and BRNOs in all sorts of calibers over the last 35 years. This is the strangest discourse I have ever seen on their performance. I'm not qualified to reply intelligently.
I will say that I have a ZKK 600 in 30.06 with globs of hard chrome plating in the bore that shoots .75MOA.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I went to the range yesterday shot offhand at 50 and 100.POI was all over the place and groups were bad.Got back and checked the rifle made sure everything was OK for today.Started off the bench to check the rifle.Here are the results.If anyone remembers in the passed I suspected this barrel to be shot out and poor right from the beginning especially with solids.Guess what? I was right all along.I got my hopes up last time with some softs but that didn't last and I am right back to were I started from.The first target pictured is at 25yds,second 50 and last 100yds-single shot fired at all distancesAside from the barrel,I find my Ruger much better at handling the recoil.I think the weight destribution and design of the Ruger makes it a much more easier rifle to shoot.The CZ nearly broke my nose and thumb.I think it's barrel is too long and light.Once you hold the pistol grip,there is not much room between your hand and the rear of the bolt.Instead of wrapping my thumb around the grip,i like placing it along the stock so it points at the rear of the bolt.I shoot better this way but cannot do this with my CZ-there is no room.This is caused by the comb of the stock being too close to bolt,IMO.I also had three jams that occured when the RN DGX tips were slightly flattened from recoil.It seems that the only bullets it feeds are Woodleigh RN's and RN solids.This is my second CZ that is behaving like this and was shot out with less than 200 or 300rds.Like the CZ458wm the CZ 458 lott is even harder to shoot with max loads.

quote:

I had a similar problem with a rifle when I changed scopes one time. After putting the new bases and scope on, the bullets keyholed through the 200 yard target. After a bit of study and observation I determined that my boresighting was placing the bullets in the dirt a couple of feet in front of the target and the bullets were bouncing through the target sideways. Check the dirt.

This is something to think about! Only on the internet would you have access to this experience.

Could it be another crooked barrel? In the dirt at 25 yards?

I guess another clue would be if this is first time shooting a new gun or first time after scope mounting vs a gun that was shooting fine and then went south for no apparent reason? The pictures dont lie.

Jeff,one of the two,the Lott is at Ralph's and is about to get a Krieger, SMP bottom metal and three pos safety installed.What do you have planned?

I have a Ruger No. 1 in .458 WM, nice wood, Leupold 4x fixed. I think it's an FX II, 33mm, but I could be wrong.

500 gr. Speer, Hodgdon 4895, and it shoots where I point it. I like the recoil, makes me feel "in control." I think a lot of the "issues" people come up with about their firearm's "shortcomings" are figments of their inactivated imagination.

I would like to disagree with 'fourbore' on leaving copper remover in a barrel over night.
If it contains ammonia it would pit the bore badly and you would have a clunker.

quote:

Originally posted by mustbhuntn:
I had a similar problem with a rifle when I changed scopes one time. After putting the new bases and scope on, the bullets keyholed through the 200 yard target. After a bit of study and observation I determined that my boresighting was placing the bullets in the dirt a couple of feet in front of the target and the bullets were bouncing through the target sideways. Check the dirt.

I checked the fresh fallen snow and no bullets hit before hitting the target at 25,50 or 100yds.

quote:

Originally posted by Steven R Gierke:
I would like to disagree with 'fourbore' on leaving copper remover in a barrel over night.
If it contains ammonia it would pit the bore badly and you would have a clunker.

Not nessarily. If you use Wipeout (or most other foam cleaners) you can leave it overnight or longer. In fact Wipeout uses a preservative so you can just wipe your barrel dry and not lubricate unless it's going into long term storage. jorge

Bore scopes have shown over and over again on these forums that these solvents,including wipe-out, can't remove the copper between the corner of the lands and groove where it is most harmful to accuracy.It was shown that the only thing that works is JB on a patch on a brush.

quote:

I would like to disagree with 'fourbore' on leaving copper remover in a barrel over night.
If it contains ammonia it would pit the bore badly and you would have a clunker.

I guess they are not all the same, Hoppes recommends over night and claims others require several days. I DONT KNOW, some may be harmful. I guess it is best to read the label.

http://www.hoppes.com/products/bench_rest9.html

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Jeff,one of the two,the Lott is at Ralph's and is about to get a Krieger, SMP bottom metal and three pos safety installed.What do you have planned?

if its shot out as a 45, i'd send it off to debuell for a .475 recut

I guess I must have the one-and-only CZ 550 Big Bore (.458 WM) that doesn't have a bunch of problems

No bent barrel, no jams, average 1.25 MOA for just about anything I've put through it: 350s, 405s, 450s, 465s, 480s and 500s.

And, it's a joy to tote and shoot! Recoil is quite manageable... more like a big shove. The scope has never been off from day one, though it has QD rings. It simply is one of my all-time favorites! And it has about 400 rounds through it.

Cleaning has never been an issue... I simply do it when needed, but don't overdo it!

And it NEVER changes POI with the same load and sight-in.

I feel sorry for Shootaway... something is really wrong there.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

.458 Only, that CZ of yours is obviously way overdue for a new barrel. I mean, really...400 rounds through the same barrel? That's crazy talk.

Once again, I don't think you Yankees understand the way we do things in Canada. All rifles are cleaned up here with stainless brushes on steel rods which are inserted at the muzzle and pumped vigorously. By angling the rod appropriately, we are able to adjust point of impact on the target by selectively wearing semicircles of metal off the muzzles of our rifles. This enables us to keep our scope adjustment turrets at the center of their travel, thus maximizing the adjustment range available when frantically spinning the turrets to adapt to field conditions while hunting. Simple, really.

Valve grinding compound may, in extreme cases, be applied to the steel rods for gross adjustments. After a few years of this practice, we are also able to use it to fine-tune the regulation on our Sabatti doubles.

John

I tried the stainless brushes but not the valve grinding compound. My Holland and Holland Royal will only shoot 2" groups at 300 yds. I think I'll give the valve compound a try.

quote:

Dr. Duc: I have owned over 30 CZs and BRNOs in all sorts of calibers over the last 35 years. This is the strangest discourse I have ever seen on their performance.

Ditto, this isn't the only thread, I don't get it either, maybe we're just lucky, but I don't think so.

Here we go again



SSR

Keyhole at 25yds??????

I never knew there were so many Camp Perry winners on this sight. How about I video it? You will be able to see it up close at 25yds. Why would I make that up?

ramrod,

I dont understand, are you saying that an unstable bullet will require more than 25 yards to keyhole. I am not making an argument, just asking what you mean. I agree the problem seems odd. You think it is not possible? Or you think the gun is ruined.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Jeff,one of the two,the Lott is at Ralph's and is about to get a Krieger, SMP bottom metal and three pos safety installed.What do you have planned?

if its shot out as a 45, i'd send it off to debuell for a .475 recut

When the barrels come off,I'll try to send them to you for you to keep and do whatever you want with.

George, perchance were these cast bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
George, perchance were these cast bullets?

No they where ordanary RN steel jacketed solids.

Thanks George.

Forrest, looks like tsx bullets in profile

Shootaway, I'll buy the POS from you for $100 and turn it into a 470 Capstick ...



Chuck

quote:

ramrod,

I dont understand, are you saying that an unstable bullet will require more than 25 yards to keyhole. I am not making an argument, just asking what you mean. I agree the problem seems odd. You think it is not possible? Or you think the gun is ruined.

I've had a couple rifles key hole. First used mauser I bought was sold as a 7x57 however someone had installed a 8x57 barrel. Shooting heavy bullet Norma ammo. Accuracy sucked and I got some elongated holes. Nothing close to these pictures. I've shot long bullets in a slow twist barrel and had them not stabilize. I've never had perfectly sideways bullet impact. Close maybe, three times at different yardage the moon must have been in perfect alignment. Maybe I was just unlucky and this case was perfect. I also look at the first bullet with the dark outline along the nose of the bullet but not the rear.

I simply find it hard to grasp this situation. Heck I'm probably all wet. And if I bet $$ I would lose. But in the case I would bet $$ against it. Guess something I would have to see to believe.

Simply my opinion it and a couple $$ will buy you a cup of coffee.

Hmmm... yea. Just three shots fired and three perfect keyholes. All at different distances. What are the odds on that?

George, I do not question that you are having barrel problems, but something is not right. I have multiple CZ's and have shot them alot. They all are exceeding accurate and the barrels are no where close to being "shot out". Given your experiences with multiple rifles and "shot out" barrels, I have to wonder if there is something going on with what you are doing to the rifles. Just too much of a coincidence that one person can have so many issues with "shot out" barrels. To me it seems unfair to blame the rifles, just too odd to have these sorts of problems repeatedly.