I could post this on the african forum but hypotheticals get about as much respect there as posts on 50BMG wildcats.
Here we can relax and let the BS flow a bit

Your job is a PH and you concentrate exclusivley on DG.

What rifle/gun/calibre do you carry for backup?

Karl.

[ 04-08-2003, 16:07: Message edited by: Karl ]

Karl

Didn't want to leave your post without reply - even I'm very far away of the skills and wisdom to judge what a PH needs

My pick would be a Krieghof Big Five in 500NE with express open sights only.

Can be carried loaded safely all day long - no worries with a loaded but uncocked rifle.

Would only use FN Solids (GS Customs or Bridger) in 500grn.

Franz

500 NE double with flat nosed solids, like Bridger, GS.

If I were a more robust fellow, I might consider a 577 ne or 600 ne double, but it is easier to buy a rifle than to change one's body!

A .700 BMG IMPROVED Loaded with a 1200 grain Hawk SP bullet at 2500 FPS.

for me? as a ph, dangerous game?

470 ne, 500 grains at 2150.... dead on at 50... and a pratice range to blast at 50, 20, and 5
jeffe

470NE double! For the Nostalgia effect only! If I were serious, I'd carry a 600 Overkill bolt action for those magic moments when things go really really bad!-Rob

45/70--stops buff, etc. as they fall over laughing in their tracks!

Sorry, y'all--I couldn't resist. But even with the 45/70 I would hesitate to use Matchkings!

Oops! Sorry again...

Mauser-type magazine rifle in .505 Gibbs, firing 600 grain Barnes Super Solids solids @ 2,325 fps.

AFTER WATCHING some of the Mark Sullivan tapes... I would want a .600 nitro double rifle.

remember a PH doesn't "shoot" until it's apparent the client can't get the job done and by then finesse is NOT what you want to count on.

BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER at 10 feet.

If it were a magazine rifle, I'd go with a CZ-550 reamed out to 458 lott with 6 in the well and one in the pipe, 500 gr @ 2300 fps.

In a double rifle, 500 NE.

I realize the question is intended for Africa, I'd like to expand to NA (grizzly and Polar bear etc)

I intend to eventually build a stopper for NA game to use when working in the woods. I am thinking of a .458 win mag built on a mauser. one of the reasons is readily available .458 ammunition anywhere in N America. so there is no worry if your ammo doesn't follow you

[ 04-09-2003, 01:04: Message edited by: rockhead ]

I cannot imagine choosing a bolt action after we all saw that lion charge video a few weeks back. Clearly, there are times during which a double is the only option and, as a PH, you WILL at some point need to get your client and yourself through those times. That said, I think the only options should really be a .470 or .500 double rifle. The ammo is relatively available when compared to other double calibres and the recoil is not so terrible that a second shot is slowed. I think a Searcy or Chapuis would be tough to beat for the money.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 04-09-2003, 01:03: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

My first choice would be very well fitting double rifle chambered for 500NE, and my second choice would be any good double in any chambering of 450/400NE 3", and up to the afore mentioned 500NE. Anything larger is so heavy you can't swing it too well, for the second shot! This also goes for the very large bolt rifles, if they are heavy enough to be able to shoot them.

In deadly close charges as described here "ONLY SHOOTING AT THE LAST MINUTE", a bolt rifle becomes a single shot, because you will not get another shot off, no matter how many rounds you have in the magazine, they may as well be in your pocket! You, however, may use what ever floats your boat!

AK 47

Maybe a drum magasine?



Johan

My .450 Rigby. Almost equal to the .450 Dakota and the .460 Weatherby but with 15,000 lbs. less pressure. Pushing a 500 grain solid over 2,400 fps. get the job done if I do my part. Lawdog

Merkel Model 140-2 in .470 Nitro Express.



http://www.gsifirearms.com/product/m-1402-main.html

[ 04-24-2003, 23:09: Message edited by: BFaucett ]

Karl,

The marketplace currently is providing bolt-action, magazine rifles in .458 Lott as the basic "tool" for the dangerous game hunting PH.This is where they start. Ammunition is available, and relatively cheap.

That is not to say that some of the older hunters haven't moved up to more expensive rifles, with more expensive and less-available ammunition like the double rifles. I talked to two PHs at SCI this year who are wanting to move up to double rifles in .470 NE. They were shopping.

jim dodd

I have not found the 375 and 416 lacking as a stopping rifle except in some folks imagination.
A stopping rifle might be better described as a solid to the brain than as a caliber, and caliber makes little if any difference in such a case.

500,
I suspect there have been more elephant killed with the AK-47 in the last 10 years than with any other caliber or model of rifle...a burst to the noggin seems to do quite well.

I'd pick a Ruger in 458 Lott or 416. I like the option of being able to carry with the mag full and the chamber empty. I don't think bolt rifles are really too slow anyway. Certainly not if you ever need three shots, which I know can happen. Doubles are too valuable and the ammo too expensive for a working man to carry around every day anyway.

For Alaska, my 375 Whn AI Safari rifle.
For Africa, an M98 416 Taylor or 458. ~~~Suluuq

How about a FN FAL. Shooting FMJ of course. 500 grains, what is the depth of penetration on African Elephant with one of those. I know that they have been used extensively on ele so they must get the job done. Unfortunately being an auto loader they would be illegal.

I would opt for a M202 loaded with HEAT. That will stop any ele on earth, guaranteed. 500grains, you can go figure out the penetration numbers for this one if you like, too!

Axel

[ 04-09-2003, 21:26: Message edited by: Axel ]

How abot a 12.7 Browing machinegun mounted on a tripod then?

Johan

Gentlemen

I would choose a 450 rigby rimless with 550- 600 grain missiles. A 416 rigby with 450 grainers is not bad either.

Now, if we shall talk silly. MG 42-53 in 7,62 would do it, peel the animal in small pieces with style

The ammo should be black tips from Bofors

/ JOHAN

[ 04-10-2003, 23:27: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

The 50 BMG machine gun and the 7.62 gatling gun are not truly single man portable. The M202 IS single man portable and packs A LOT more punch than either of those choices!

The M202 shooting HEAT will blow an ele's head clean off. That is no exaggeration, either! Shot placement will be critical to save the ivory from destruction. Of course thorasic cavity hits should be just as instantly lethal, and do not pose a threat to the trophy.

Axel

ill take the 700 nitro double rifle im having built any ay of the week

only 3 more months and she'll be done.

I had a chat with Don Heath at the African Hunter offices in Harare one trip over that way. One of the things we talked about was problems with cow elephant interactions humans, in particular with special forces trooops on bush missions. Don said they found out the hard way that the 7.62X51 in a three-shot burst will turn an ele, but a 5.56X45 will not.

I also know an old meat hunter who took hundreds of buff with an AK-47, firing a three-round burst behind the shoulder.

jim

Axel I'm glad I won't be anywhere near you when you decide to fire heat rounds at a buffalo that may be only a few feet away
Or try even hitting an incoming cat with one.

And 'auto bursts' are a lot harder to keep on target than most people realise.For me not worth the risk on those occasions you spray bullets in the general direction and somehow manage to hit nothing.
Pointy FMJ bullets also have a tendency to choose where they want to go once they enter a body.
Deadly yes. Reliable? I won't be signing up any poachers to protect me.

Karl

[ 04-10-2003, 04:07: Message edited by: Karl ]

Double Rifle, as big as you can handle. 600 Nitro would be quite effective. Just a bit more margin of safety than a 577. Which has a bit more than a 500. Which has a bit more than a 470... etc. etc.

Stop going down when you can handle the gun comfortably and shoot it well and quickly at 50 yards and under.

A bolt action will do well too. Just not the margin of safety.

Y'all are just no fun anymore.

If'n I was a brave, macho-type PH who only shot when the annoyed critter was within spittin' range, then the Greek has it right. Bein' a timorous sort, myself, I'd likely go the .505 Gibbs route and start shootin' a whole lot sooner!

Since I'll spend my whole life a client, instead, either the .404 or the .450 Rigby suits (though if I ever get my own lil' ol' machine shop, a .505 is in the future just 'cause!)

Karl, the HEAT round is directs it's blast forward so as long as you are my side of the target you should not realize any problems.

I must confess that my preference is not a rifle as it has a smooth bore, actually 4 of them 66mm each. I know though it will stop a buff, rhino, hippo, ele, or T72 in it's tracks! Provided of course the T72 is not wearing reactive armor!

Axel

[ 04-10-2003, 05:47: Message edited by: Axel ]

ah, yeah.. a german national and his m202....

http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/launchers.htm#m202


http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/postoffice/354/id54.htm

nevermind
jeffe

[ 04-10-2003, 06:46: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

500/416 would not be too shabby out of a nice double.

My .500 A-Square of course, 600 grain Deadtough at 2350 fps.

Roger,
Are they till making dead toughs?

Karl.

What about a rimfire loaded with .22 Shorts (solids of course) - as long as one modifies ones "hunting technique" .

*****

My real choice would be a double in .450 NE to .500 NE or a .458 Lott M98.

[ 04-10-2003, 15:43: Message edited by: NitroX ]

Leading the charge so far ( forgiving the pun)seems to be a 500 NE double rifle.
No 585's yet despite several owners in the thread.
well 1 for me.

Karl

Jeffeosso, that is a nice pic you posted. Unfortunately, the picture isn't a M202! By the way, aren't those ROLE PLAYING game websites you have provided hyperlinks to? I guess it should not surprise anyone that you are into playing RAMBO in the imaginary roleplaying universe.

Karl, so what exactly are you worried about. I would not fire if you were behind me, so you need not worry about blast. The warhead doesn't need to be armed to kill anything that walks on legs and breathes! Actually, "solids" would be the best possible projectile. By "solids" I mean an inert warhead.

Axel

[ 04-10-2003, 17:58: Message edited by: Axel ]