It's been a couple of years since I've owned a double rifle and I'm starting to want one again. I've looked over the Searcy and Chapius rifles and I think right now I would give the business to Searcy. That said, I've owned rifles already in both of these calibers and really prefer the 500-3" if I had to use Woodleigh bullets only, but with North Fork and other premium bullets available in 470 I have to wonder if that is the better choice.
So, for any of you that have rifles in these calibers today, what bullets are you using and at what velocity does your gun regulate with them? What kind of groups are you getting at 50yds?

Not going to get North Forks any more! I can't tell you much about the 500 because I have never hunted with one. However after talking with Butch, he recomended the 470 simply because the popularity of that round and the many options on bullets/brass. I think they may also have a little better resale value. Having said that I also read that there is a noticible difference in power with the 500. I think either would meet the criteria you are looking for.

I am closing in upon 60 years old. I hope to still be actively hunting when I'm 105 like Ray Atkinson, but age does have some limitations and one of them is what you can carry comfortably in 100 degree heat.

That said, no one can seriously contend that a .470 is not "enough gun" for about any use one would want. Conversely, a .500 N.E., assuming you shoot it just as well as the .470 will have more energy, about the same penetration and therefore more effect upon game...

Plus for the .470:
Lighter weight by up to two pounds..
Factory ammo
Cheaper ammo/components
Availability of ammo/components

Plus for the .500
More power (whatever that means??)

Negatives for the .470
I can't think of any

Negatives for the .500
It is noon on October 30th and you find elephant tracks going up a mountain/hill and you could be toting a double that weighs two pounds less... or..
You lose your ammo in transient and have to find some... I'd rather be looking for .470 ammo for sure.
Recoil that makes it much less pleasant to shoot than the .470, IMHO, anyway.


I just went through the whole decision you're making when I had my Searcy built last year. I chose the .470 and the elephant I killed with it didn't like my decision much.. I heart shot him and then broke his shoulder. He may have traveled 4 yards and fell on his ass. My third shot (as he struggled to get up) entered under his left eye and exited his ear hole on the opposite side. Only one of the Woodleigh solids remained in the animal and it was quite obviously knotted up against the far skin and almost usable again.

Roscoe-
What do you mean by your statement "Not going to get North Forks anymore?"

Judge-
As I said, I've owned both before, and luckily still have components for both, including load dies for the 500. I agree about the rifle weight, but my last 500 weighed but 10.25 pounds and I found it no problem to manage, recoil wise. It also happily regulated at 2150fps with 570gr Woodleighs, so it was a very potent 24" barreled cannon. If the new guns weigh 11.5# or more I would not want one as I will not pack any gun that weighs much over 10 pounds. I know the 470 is a very capable caliber, but I prefer the 500 if it can be built to suit my spec's.
What velocity do your loads chrono in the Searcy 470? Have you tried the cup point or flat points from NF in it?

I have a .500, but would recommend the .470 because of the available of factory ammo if you have to buy some, and because it is more popular making resale easier.

Also, the .500 kicks a lot.

500 Grains

Are you saying if you had your time over again you would get the 470 OR are you saying the 470 meets a more general recommendation while you personally prefer the 500 and your personal desire for the calibre offsets any negatives?

Mike

JohnS
JudgeG and 500 grains are spot on.
While I use a 450 No2 I have shot several 470's and 2 500's.
I do feel the 500's kick a bit more, but as I believe in Physics I would rate the 500's a step up over the 450 to 475's.
However after using my 450 No2 on 2 buff and 3 elephants, I firmly believe a double in this power class is "plenty enough".
My advice is to get the one that turns your crank the most, assuming you can handle the 500 equally well.
Truth be known, one of the 450/400's just may be the best double rifle on the Planet for the "modern man".
Still, I love my 450 No2.

Thanks everyone for all of the responses thus far. However, no one has answered my original questions about what bullets they are using and at what velocity their guns are regulating at.

500grs- You have a Searcy 500? What does it weigh and what are your load spec's?

i have shot both and owened a 500 nitro i much prefer the 500 in a searcy rifle it weights all of 1 pound more wich i really could care less about 1 pound aint gonna hurt if you cant handle it take up knitting.

the 500 worked great in africa i mainly used it as my plains game rifle and a back up on my elephant my main rifle was a 700 nitro express.


searcys 500 nitro load is 109-110 grains of imr 4831 with 570 grain wooleigh soft/solid and a fed 215 mag primer. velosity is 2200fps+

Just my two cents. George Caswell has a nice German 458 win mag he would rechamber for a 450 3 1/4 or 450 No2, It is a nice rifle and It would be below 9000. There are a lot of good .458 bullets and it is a very nice gun. George will stand behind what he sells too.
505ED

quote:

Originally posted by 700 nitro:
i have shot both and owened a 500 nitro i much prefer the 500 in a searcy rifle it weights all of 1 pound more wich i really could care less about 1 pound aint gonna hurt if you cant handle it take up knitting.

the 500 worked great in africa i mainly used it as my plains game rifle and a back up on my elephant my main rifle was a 700 nitro express.

John asks a question and the respose he gets is to shoot the 500 on plains game and the 700 on anything bigger. And if he can't he needs to take up knitting.

That make guys like me who are really trying to get into bigger bores wonder.

John might be really wanting to hunt. Not slap it out on the table to compare size.

You read a post like Judge G and appreciate the knowlege and insight like that. You read this kind of stuff and just move on!

if you cant take a bit of humor/ribbing than you shouldnt even be posting.

what i deside to use for my hunting is my choice my john or any other person usees is there choice.

i was just stating what i used on my hunt you took the statment way out of context

ok

I would be happy with either, and if it where my nickel, i would get the 500, today.. ask me tomorrow...

on bullets, I would shot barnes for softs and solids, with either one I built (if i get any good) or one butch built.

500 gr for the 470, at 2150

570 for the 500, at 2050-2150, depending on how the rifle shot.

I can tell you, from experience on the 470 mbogo and 500 jeffe, that 2150 is PLEASANT in either one compared to 2300+

and that I would be basically indifferent at 10# for either, though I think the 470 should be 9.5

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
500 Grains

Are you saying if you had your time over again you would get the 470 OR are you saying the 470 meets a more general recommendation while you personally prefer the 500 and your personal desire for the calibre offsets any negatives?

Mike

Mike, If I were commissioning a fine toplever rifle, it would be in drilling format with 3 barrels of .470 NE. Hambrusch can make one for not more than US$60K.






However, if I were buying a more pedestrian device such as double rifle, I am afraid I would be tempted once again by the .500 NE. Although it belts me pretty hard, I can still shoot it accurately. But the availability of factory ammo, somewhat lighter recoil, and easier resale make the 470 NE more universally acceptable and therefore a better recommendation. To put things in perspective, would I recommend that a fellow buy a 30-06 or a .338-06? Definitely the 30-06.

JohnS,

My Searcy .500 field grade weighs 11 pounds.

My loads, in order of most accurate to least accurate (but all still more accurate than me) are:

103.0 gr. H4350 F215 primer 570 grain GS Custom FN solid
110 gr. IMR4831 F215 primer 550 grain Bridger FN solid
110 gr. IMR 4831 F215 primer 570 gr. Woodleigh
45.0 gr. XMP5744 F215 primer 500 grain cast bullet lubed with Crayola crayons and used toilet seal rings

NO FILLER in any of the above loads.

Sorry to bore folks with another re-run, but here it is.

I took my Searcy .500 NE out to try out some of the fiber optic beads available from NECG. The target below was shot at 60 yards and shows the results.

The group in the X ring was 2 shots of 570 grain Woodleigh solids, using a 6 o'clock hold. Since that was too high, I switched to the next lowest fiber optic bead.

Then I shot 2 more shots of the Woodleighs, but apparently was not concentrating well as they spread a bit. Then 2 shots of GS Custom 570 grain FN solids grouped well for a dead on hold. Finally 2 shots of Bridger 550 grain FN solids grouped well. It looks like this bead will work fine for a dead on hold.

If I could only have one it would be a 500 NE.

That said I'm beginning to put together drawings to make my own actions and parts for doubles. If it works out I'll start with the 470 then a 500 then a 550 flanged, a 416-500, 450 #2 a 577 and lastly a 600NE. Eventually I know I'll have to do a 700 NE just because.

Life is short and yo can neve have enough fine rifles.

Fritz:

When you decide to make a trim little 8 pound .375 Flanged Magnum, I'd like to be in your will.

But, I think Butch Searcy will have one on display at Dallas... It will tote and point, I'll bet, like the mythical Parker 28 gauge.

I have been on a "shooting spree" with 500 grains. I have shot his 500 Searcy and can testify to the fact that it shoots plenty good. The recoil is not painful.
The bottom line is, that a well fitting, good shooting double is one of the best hunting rifles on the Planet.

The 500 is the larger bore, thus the better killer I suppose, but maybe its over kill, I don't know....

I do know that the .470 is lighter to pack around all day and it kills everything I have shot with it, mostly buffalo and elephant. My present .470 is a Searcy and it weighs about 10.5 lbs I think, never weighed it so thats a guess...The other .470s I've owned were English guns and they weighed 11 adn 11.5 pounds..I couldn't tell much difference in recoil, I go numb from a 458 on up....

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
It's been a couple of years since I've owned a double rifle and I'm starting to want one again. I've looked over the Searcy and Chapius rifles and I think right now I would give the business to Searcy. That said, I've owned rifles already in both of these calibers and really prefer the 500-3" if I had to use Woodleigh bullets only, but with North Fork and other premium bullets available in 470 I have to wonder if that is the better choice.
So, for any of you that have rifles in these calibers today, what bullets are you using and at what velocity does your gun regulate with them? What kind of groups are you getting at 50yds?

Personally, I'd take the .500, got both, don't see much recoil difference except at bench and you don't shoot elephants there.
However, for most people I would say take the .470. Resell easier, not so sure about those more dollars statements. I don't think so in English guns, probably or at leat maybe in Merkel and Searcy. More factory ammo and bullet choices. More loading data, but then again how much do you need?
Final thought is buy what fits you and you shoot the best. Try to shoot what you are looking at or at least the same model if possible. JMHO for what it isn't worth!

Overkill.OVERKILL, -THATS MY SPECIALTY! Frankly the .470 NE will do in a double rifle like nothing else! I'd like a .500NE myself but not one weighing more than a .470NE for god sakes! truth be told, I could live with a .470NE forever. Plains game with a .500 NE. Whats that? How do you get a .500NE to shoot 200 yrds? HUH! Maybe steenbuck, but others with a .500 NE you just gotta be lucky or stupid or both. Try a 30-06 you'll be glad you did.-Rob

John S my friend, oh Wise One, who owns a D'Arcy Echols rifle in .375 Weatherby:

My Merkel .470 NE shoots Woodleighs and Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammers into 1.6 Inches for 4 shots at 50 Yards, RLRL center-to-center.

I now forsake fillers and RL-15 for the H4831SC 108 to 110 grains with 500 grain North Fork Cup Point and Flat Point Solids. Whether .474 or .475 diameter, I am lucky enough to have a rifle that will not keyhole with either.

That H4831SC load gives same good accuracy and uniformity and lower pressures, and I cannot tell any increased recoil, burly brute that I am, well experienced and tolerant.

Velocities will be around 2100 to 2150 fps with the H4831 loads above.

Yes, I am the one who bought what little stock of North Forks were left in Cup Point and Flat Point.

I have a ton of old Barnes Originals (softs and solids) in .475/500gr, that give closer to 2175 FPS with the H4831SC, they being tighter seals of the barrel and with greater bearing surfaces.

I have two boxes of the original Jack Carter TBSH, a few boxes of Woodleigh soft and solid, a couple of boxes of GSC FN and HV, and one box of the rare and exotic BeLL solid bullet of yore.

You are definitely better off with the .470 NE double.

You can get Federal Factory loads for it with TBSH flat nosed solids, and Merkel regulates their guns for those.

The Iron Buffalo also tells me that the .470 NE 500 grainer penetrates as well as a .375 H&H 300 grainer: We are talking strictly flat nosed solids in the Iron Buffalo.


My 10.6 pound Merkel .470 NE fits me fine, and balances well, but that is as heavy a rifle as I would want to carry all day .

BTW, the MSRP of a new Merkel has risen a couple of K in the short time I have owned mine. The cartoonish game scene engraving is getting better too, but I prefer the minimalist scroll engraving on my boxlock.

I went through the same decision making process two weeks ago when I ordered my new Searcy double. 470, no 500, no 470, no 500. I ended selecting the 470. It has more then enough power and penetration for both elephant and buffalo, is lighter and there is a better bullet selection for it.

465H&H

John S,
Sorry, just now got back to this thread. To answer your question on the north forks...I thought I had heard that there will be no more north forks in .474 due to the need for special sizes of copper. Am I confused?

BTW- for the same barrel contours, you should be able to build a lighter .500NE THAN A .470. FOR 22 INCH BARRELS A .500NE COULD BE BUILT ABOUT 1LB LESS IN WEIGHT.-ROB

Thanks folks for all of the insights and suggestions. I still haven't decided which way to go but if I decide to buy a Searcy it will be a 470, strictly because of the weight, which for me is more important than the caliber. That said, I still prefer the 500 so the search might go on!

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
John S,
Sorry, just now got back to this thread. To answer your question on the north forks...I thought I had heard that there will be no more north forks in .474 due to the need for special sizes of copper. Am I confused?

I think the idea is that they would need to know they have a pretty large market before they would order the material for another run.

New 470 material is being ordered.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
New 470 material is being ordered.

Mike

What a great guy. He listens, he hears and he reacts to market demands.

Now, you guys better buy those 470 bullets and make sure he stays in business!

great bullets, mike!

Certainly means that Northforks will be my bullet of choice for the Searcy! Will spend the money with the guy who supports us.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
New 470 material is being ordered.

Mike

Great Mike, are you takeing orders yet? If so, I won't order the Woodlieghs! I have about 90 rounds of Federal Factory ammo with TB solids on hand so I can wait if it will be a while! What I'm interested in is all 500 gr .474 cup point solids.

Mac

The material won't be here for another 8 weeks, maybe more. Then I'm going to play with re-designing the contact area. I like the present style but the consensus is more flexibility in seating depth is desired, plus some folks seated them completely wrong (due to lack of instructions on my part). The present style works fine IF the bullet fits the groove diameter. If the barrel is oversize and/or has weak rifling, there can be problems, which I want to eliminate (only happened on two rifles so far; RIPs buddie's POS Winchester and Judge's fat bored M95 Win {do you see a trend?}). With the changes, I will need to do pressure tests to see if anything different comes from the redesign.

FYI, for those that have the present design, the nose (ogive if you will) is not going to change. If they fed OK before, they will feed the same with any new generation. If they didn't feed before, they still won't feed. There will be no difference.

You guys better not hang me out to dry on these or the next time I'll just consider your internet banter as a bunch old ladies cackling over the back fence.

John,

I have a Searcy in .470 and it really likes the Barns X and solid. It shoots really tight with that bullet at 50 yards generally giving me ragged hole accuracy over 97grs of H4350.

I would be shooting NFcps right now if the proprieter would get off his duff and start making them. I've called several times and almost gotten to the begging procedure.

Apparently it's worked

As far as .500 vs .470,,apple pie vs cherry pie I've shot both and like both. i decided on the .470 because it just sounds cool.

I have a 470,but i really wanted a 500 but couldnt get one at the time ,apart from waiting 3 months to have a Krieghoff built which i didnt feel comfortable about ,as it was just after 9/11,there was a Merkel 470 available which i liked the look of better, so i bought it ,but i still want a 500 ! all the 400 calibres sound to me like wannabe ''500''s, 465,475,450,etc where as 500 sounds like its ''THERE'' !!!! no looking forward or back ,you only live once ,i would get the 500

Mike!

You can count on an order from me for 470 caliber bullets when you get them ready.

465H&H

Mike,
Glad to hear you are going to make them again. I used them for the first time last month on Buffalo and was very happy with them. I had hoped to send you photos of the recovered bullets but I never found one! 3 shots with the 470 and all passed through. My PH was impressed with the penetration and the blood trail. There was little tracking to do on this buff however if we would have had to...it would have been easy. My PH asked me to order a box for him in both .474 and .458 so once you have them back in stock let me know and I will place another order.

Butch regulates his current 470's with 500 grain bullets and 106 gr of 4831 at 2150 FPS. He dropped this from his previous 108 Gr 4831 at 2250 FPS. The Searcy doubles will fire any monolithic solids, etc with no problem. Don't try these in other doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Thumpper470:

Don't try these in other doubles.

It's an old wives tale that ALL monometal bullets are bad for doubles. North Fork, Bridger and GS Custom monometal bullets are much kinder to a barrel than Woodleigh solids, as the driving band design of NF, Bridger and GS engraves on the rifling very easily and without pressure spikes, in contrast to the steel-lined Woodleigh solids.

So for anyone who is concerned about damage to a double, I would strongly recommend using NF, Bridger or GS bullets, instead of a bullet with a steel liner that will cause more stress, more flexing and higher pressure spikes.

My PH uses a 500 NE as his stopper. We were culling Buff to provide some meat for a village. In tall grass I had dropped two with my 470. When one got up quartering towards us my PH hit it through the right shoulder which then exited through the left hip. I will always remember the sound of that 570 grain solid whistling across the grass.

The power diference between the 470 and 500 is formidable

quote:

Originally posted by Thumpper470:
Butch regulates his current 470's with 500 grain bullets and 106 gr of 4831 at 2150 FPS. He dropped this from his previous 108 Gr 4831 at 2250 FPS. The Searcy doubles will fire any monolithic solids, etc with no problem. Don't try these in other doubles.

Which 4831 does he use?