I was thinking of having a "back up" gun built. It would be a double rifle, but a much more practical piece than 99.999% of the doubles you see on the market. My question is...

Which big bore rifle cartridge flies best from a shorter barrel? and...

What length barrel would be adequate?

i.e. a 20" barrel on a .458 Winchester magnum???

A rimmed one is the only way to go on a double rifle.

I was just giving that as a hypothetical starting point (i.e. = in example) that is NOT set in stone. I just wanted to know what cartridges still gave solid performance out of a shorter barrel??? I want to keep the barrel at a maximum of 22" and preferably 20" if not 18", but I don't know if that would be realistically possible. Also, keep in mind that this is a rifle that will be strictly for "close encounters", so long distance shooting (more than 50 yards) will probably be a near zero occurance.

Also, I don't want to go up into the GIGANTIC calibers. So, please, no suggestions for the 700 Nitro lol.

What game are you going to use it on?

Pigs?

African lions?

Cape buffalo?

Elephant?

You have to tailor the rifle and carrtidge to the game.

George

I can't afford to kill an elephant so I guess you could say cape buff and down. I already have quite a few bolt action guns and I really wanted to build something different. I know that the double gun guys on the forums will want to kick me for this, but I wanted to build a no frills double gun. Something really reliable, handy to carry and quick to aim, and simple. No fancy engraving...probably even a synthetic stock. I know, blasphemy!

If you want a "stopper", the .450 NE and .470 NE should both work fine within 50 feet regardless of the slightly lower velocity.

If I remember correctly, Butch Searcy used to build stainless steel double rifles with synthetic stocks, so it's not completely unheard of.

Who is going to build it for you?

George

quote:

Originally posted by TomFromTheShade:
I can't afford to kill an elephant so I guess you could say cape buff and down. I already have quite a few bolt action guns and I really wanted to build something different. I know that the double gun guys on the forums will want to kick me for this, but I wanted to build a no frills double gun. Something really reliable, handy to carry and quick to aim, and simple. No fancy engraving...probably even a synthetic stock. I know, blasphemy!

Tom, who is going to build this rifle,and why do you want the barrels so short? A double rifle with 24" barrels is shorter than a bolt rifle with 18" barrels, because the chambers are 1" ahead of the triggers, while the bolt rifle has a 8" action, before you even get to the chambers! Addtionally, you need the barrel length to burn the powder in NE cartridges.

The longer barrels, give the rifle better ballance, and pointability for instinctive shooting, used in close encounters of dangerous kind. In very close quarters, one rarely looks at the sights at all, but points and fires like a shotgun. Very short barrels on a necessarily heavy rifle are not well suited to instinctive shooting!

You may have your double made any way you choose, that is the American way, but the barrels in the 24" to 26" lengths are tried, and true, for a stopping double rifle!

You know, if you just set aside the money it's gonna cost you to have this made you wouldn't have to save much longer for the elephant hunt

Why not just get a Howdah then if it is for real emergency type work. A double barrel pistol for all intents and purposes, I don't know of anybody having one built nowadays, but some guys on the forums have originals. Normally very large bore (over 50) but in a sawed off pistol gripped setup. One was used in Ghost and the Darkness movie if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Red

You can hunt elephant for the same amount of $$ as a buffalo hunt. Just not trophy elephnt. The thrills are even greater.
465H&H

how recoil/flinch tollerant are you...george has it right...throw in 500 n.e. if you can handle it but 470 is a sweetie

I have a friend that builds rifles as a hobby, and he would build the gun for me at cost plus a lobster dinner, so its not going to cost nearly as much as you think it would. I wanted the short barrels because I wanted to carry the rifle slung on my back while hunting, that way if things got too hairy for the bolt action I would atleast have the option of changing firepower. As an example, lets say I hit a buff a little further back than hoped for and now I have to track him through the bush. I would much rather have a double gun than a bolt at that point. All other things equal, how much shorter is a double gun than a bolt action (on average)???

Recoil doesn't bother me all that much. I'm a former fighter and I'm about 280 pounds, so I don't flinch when I'm about to be hit, and carrying a big rifle is not a problem. I just wanted to have something capable of piling two big chunks of lead into an angry critter in a hurry. I would probably carry this rifle on back up duty for big bears too. I've had (knock on wood) a handful of non violent bear encounters when fishing, but I know that someday I won't be so lucky. I would probably also use the gun black bear hunting over bait, and probably for wild boar as well.

Tom,

If your friend will build a double for me too, I will buy him 2 lobster dinners.

I wish that this guy was more into building guns these days, with him building them and me marketing them we could make a fortune, but unfortunately he is spending a lot of time working on his stock cars. I have to beg him for a month, and then hold his hand while he orders components, but he will eventually build me a rifle. lol.

look at meeeee...look at meeee!

Having shot the .500NE and the .470NE I can't tell a bit of difference in recoil. At least not enough to matter.

As far as component availability the .470 is bit easier/cheaper to reload for.

quote:

Originally posted by TomFromTheShade:
I have a friend that builds rifles as a hobby, and he would build the gun for me at cost plus a lobster dinner, so its not going to cost nearly as much as you think it would. I wanted the short barrels because I wanted to carry the rifle slung on my back while hunting, that way if things got too hairy for the bolt action I would atleast have the option of changing firepower. As an example, lets say I hit a buff a little further back than hoped for and now I have to track him through the bush. I would much rather have a double gun than a bolt at that point. All other things equal, how much shorter is a double gun than a bolt action (on average)???

About 8 inches shorter with the same length barrels.

Your idea of an 18 -20 inch Double is going to leave you with an awkward handling clunker that has to be aimed rather than pointed. While you will keep the fast second shot you will loose the fit of a gun that points on target naturally. Your rifle will be light and a 470 will feel like a 500 and so forth. You will also lose needed velocity.

As for carrying a 10 pound rifle on a sling over your back and a 10 pound rifle in your hand for 8-10 miles, at 100 degrees Good Luck. You won't be in a position where you need two rifles to track a wounded Buffalo, one will suffice. Why not just have your friend make a normal Double for you and leave the Bolt rifle at home?

If it matters too you think about resale. Who would want a homemade double with 18 inch barrels? You would be lucky to get the price of the lobster dinner back.

Tom,

My .470NE has 24 inch barrels and is just a shade shorter than my .375H&H with 20 inch barrels.

I hope that helps.

A 24 inch double is PLENTY short and compact enough for any use.

I'm not worrying about carrying the weight of the rifles in the heat. I used to train in South Carolina, which was plenty hot, and would wear a 40 pound lead vest when I ran. For a big man, I have the best stamina of anyone I know.

I am also not worried about the resale value of the gun. I have rarely ever sold a gun that I liked.

I am taking into consideration the barrel length that you guys have expressed. I am a self admitted novice when it comes to double rifles. I have read a good deal of information, but I am years behind most of you guys here.

Thanks for all of the help. I am off to do some more research on suitable calibers. I want to find something with some balls, but not something that I would HAVE TO reload for all the time, something that I could shoot factory ammunition through as well.

I know your friend will build the double but if you really wanted something smaller to pack with the bolt action. You could go with a BFR or S&W pistol 7 1/2 inch barrels in the following calibers.

What about a 460 S&W. 200 grain Hornady SST, average 2250 FPS and muzzle energy 2248 FT/LBS

or .500 S&W, 7.5-Inch Barrel
440 grain Hard Cast CorBon, average 1671 FPS and muzzle energy 2729 FT/LBS

That would really have some kick.

Check out the Rhino at http://www.teppojustu.com

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
I know your friend will build the double but if you really wanted something smaller to pack with the bolt action. You could go with a BFR or S&W pistol 7 1/2 inch barrels in the following calibers.

What about a 460 S&W. 200 grain Hornady SST, average 2250 FPS and muzzle energy 2248 FT/LBS

or .500 S&W, 7.5-Inch Barrel
440 grain Hard Cast CorBon, average 1671 FPS and muzzle energy 2729 FT/LBS

That would really have some kick.

Great idea except you can't carry a pistol in many countrys in Africa.

Not to mention these choices aren't even approaching adequate for thick skined dangerous game back up work.

Tom,

I am going to give you a direct answer of what I think a really neat backup gun would be. Keep in mind that this is a backup gun, not a hunting gun. And it is intended to be affordable.

Start with one of those Spainish 10 gauge shotgun actions. Lop the barrels and use the monobloc. Bush the strikers and re-harden the action. Barrel for .600 NE with 19 inch barrels. Rifle weight 11 pounds. The gun would be handy and light enough to carry. It would be hell to shoot, but if this really is a backup gun for shooting stuff at 10 feet, that will not be an issue.

Good luck!

Sure strike
I did not know you could not pack a pistol in Africa. That no fun, I really thought the .500 S&W would pack enough punch but then again with a Buff coming at you, thats not the time to find out it doesnt. I just dont know who the hell can shoot those freaking hand canons.