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Ray, Todd's post was aimed primarily at me, noting what he believes to be dissimilar observations on the effects on elephants of FN bullets missing the brain and on the subject of FN's deforming. I find his posts challenging in nature, but not offensive. Moreover, only through comparison of field notes are we going to determine the best bullets or combination of bullets to use on eles. [I was going to go into the issue of the statistical validity of even field observations (given the hundreds of thousands sample size) tomorrow if I have the opportunity and the enthusiasm for it., but I think I will dig through my bullet collection and see if my I phone will take some decent photos of a couple of copper bananas, and dig up Harlan's and Thomson's books.] Todd, I have to say that I don't believe that the comparison of a 577 or even a "mere" 500 to the 458wm is reasonable. Those who have used the heavier calibers remark to a man on the tremendous difference in "thump" as 465H&H calls it, and he notes the substantial difference between a 500gr .458" bullet and a 550gr .458" bullet, though the heavier bullet is traveling slower (I think.) Also, have you rolled all of your recovered bullets on a flat table top to check for any bend? If not, would you please do so and report your findings? IF you were to search 500 Grains old posts you will find a number of photos of bent copper and brass solids. I would provide a link but I don't have the time right now. If you read the third and fourth from last of Alf's posts, he provides a clear and accurate explanation of why the RN which penetrates substantially less must transfer more of it's energy to an elephant's head than a deeper penetrating FN. Here is a simple example, one 500gr RN I used on a frontal brain shot was found in the neck, not too far from the skull/spine ball joint; one 450 FN used on a frontal brain shot was found a few inches from the elephant's anus. Both bullets had about 5,000lb' of energy at the muzzle and the distance was close for both shots, the difference in striking energy wouldn't have been much. The RN expanded all of that ~5,000lb' of energy in about 40" or so, almost all of that in the head, the FN expended all of the ~5,000lb' of energy over about 96" or so, about a third of that in the head. {The two example shots I have in mind were both successful brain shots, but what if they weren't?} BTW, I have found two FN solids on the ground after insurance shots as well. One under a front leg after a top down brain shot and un under the ele discovered when he was rolled from what, iirc, was a top down heart shot. My son, who is now 13, got into my bullet collection a number of years ago and a bunch have gone missing, but what might be worse is all of the label are gone, so I can positively ID only a few of the bullets as being from this specific shot or that specific shot. But, thankfully I can Id the troubled FN's I think, surely the banana. FWIW, on 465H&H's topic of brain shots not killing, I believe I have killed outright one elephant with a missed brain shot. She went rigid and froze at the shot and then it's eyes went blank and it toppled over. I'm pretty sure it was stone dead when it hit the ground, though it got an insurance shot. We had to run from the rest of the heard so it was some time before we got back to her. She hadn't moved at all, but if she wasn't dead when she hit the ground the insurance shot would have had time to bleed her out. We cut the skull open and found the shot was a little low. (Hmm, thinking now, I wonder if it was a spine shot that got her at the ball joint or slightly lower....) A very high percentage of the elephant I have killed landed in the sphinx position. I attribute that to my (bad) habit of shooting on the low side. It seems if you shoot them low in the brain or hit the ball joint the are more likely to land upright and not kick themselves over. I did have one pushed over by her herd mates. There are two elephants I killed one day we didn't cut skulls open on because of recovery timing, and I believe that both may have had successful brain shots that didn't completely turn out the lights. They were both down at the shot but neither fell as perfectly as others where I hit the lower brain. Buzz Charlton touched his barrel to the eye of each and there was a hint of reaction in the eye of both eles. He presumed I had missed closely, I wasn't sure then and I'm not sure now. After failing the eye ball test, Buzz had me deliver an insurance to each. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I see some issues that need to be addressed, so far its been RN and FN.... News flash, all are not created equal.... There are good, better and worse in each design. I hate a round nose anything. Some are better than others however, not all are created equal......... For instance, I can recall what would be considered round nose FMJs that were extremely good in the test work I have done here. One was a very obscure 6.5 mm 156 gr military FMJ that was loaded is some sort of old obscure 6.5 mm cartridge, I would have to look back at the data to recall the cartridge. I don't recall the velocity, but it was modest I think, 2300 or something such. This bullet was extremely long for caliber, and it punched completely through 65 inches of test material, straight..... I do know that we pulled some of those bullets, loaded in faster 6.5 cartridges, and reached a point that the nose started to deform, penetration of course was less at that point, but still straight....... Later from this test work done CEB made some special copper BBW#13s at 6.5 caliber and 155 grs. I have a box of these, but I don't think I have ever tested them. Craig Boddington, had someone hunting with him a couple of years ago that used this bullet on Cape Buffalo. Of course the bullet penetrated incredibly deep and exited, just so happened killed the buffalo as well..... Craig done a small article on it in some magazine as I recall............ Point is, this more or less round nose FMJ did one hell of a job in the penetration department........ Another that penetrated to the extreme, is the Woodleigh 320 gr FMJ.... This bullet defies all, and zips through test medium like butter...... Test after test this proved true, so much so that I made sure I have a box on hand...... In many years past, Woodleigh makes or made a 358 caliber round nose FMJ at 310 grs. From my early tests they also penetrated much like the 9.3 320 gr Woodleigh, deep and straight........ Someone sent some 9.3 286 Woodleigh FMJ, I think it was Dave Bush, they looked exactly like the same nose profile, but they did not do so well at all, in fact, they were no where close to the 320, lost stability and went nuts... 465HH and I have often wondered what the deal is, I have no definitive answer, but I would speculate that we might be approaching Alf's "Needle" idea, very long for caliber bullets, and possible they can stabilize during terminal penetration because of this length......?????? Flat Nose? No, for sure they are not created equal. Just because it has a flat nose, does not mean it is any better, and in many cases FAR WORSE than even mediocre Round Nose bullets....... I have many different designs of flat nose bullets that have failed miserably in the straight line penetration area, depth of penetration or failed in some area...... One of the most prominent that stands out in my mind is yet again back to 9.3 caliber, and then Barnes Banded 286 and I believe 250 gr supposedly flat nose solids..... Neither would make it to 12-14 inches before going off course, flipping around, and loosing stability in the worst way. WHY??? Well, here is the deal, the 9.3 caliber banded solids only had a 47% meplat, and could not stabilize during terminals..... Why would Barnes do such? Rumor is that there were complaints from shooters with cheap rifles that would not feed the properly designed 65% meplat solids.... I believe, not quite sure, that this was after the sale of barnes to the same group that owns remington as I understand. From that point barnes was no longer owned by a shooter/hunter, but by the accountants that made the decisions, and going back to the old round nose designs because of this. In my opinion, a sale out of performance, to sale more bullets. Even went on a huge campaign to say how the flat nose solids were not that good anyway.......... LOL....... Regardless of that, this was a horrible Flat nose bullet, but we know why. There were many many others that did not meet the requirements and failed for one reason or the other, too small of a meplat, material and construction, bad nose profile, or other factor......... These are the reasons that myself, Sam Rose, and others set out on a mission to identify these issues, and see if they could be corrected, and understand why, how, and what...... During this adventure, we identified several factors that do in fact effect terminal penetration of solids....... and have many examples that can be shown to prove it. 1. Meplat Size expressed in percentage of Caliber. 2. Nose Profile 3. Construction/Material 4. Nose Projection above the top band 5. Radius Edge of meplat These 5 Factors are result of Bullet Design 6. Velocity 7. Twist Rate 8. Sectional Density On the first 5 Factors I still have a problem decided which may be the more important. And in past times you might have seen them in different orders of what I thought was important at that moment. We continue to learn. We now understand how these factors relate to either success, or failure, and how they relate to each other. Meplat size has been discussed earlier. Twist rate has been discussed, but an example I am about to relate, may be part of a factor involving twist rate. Twist rate comes into effect with a bullet that has a less than desirable meplat size, being less than 65% of caliber. Faster twist, gives more stability, for deeper penetration before loosing stability. Velocity with some nose profiles also aids in this. Not all nose profiles take advantage of extra velocity, and some, more than others......... In recent discussions, there is mention that some of the Old North Fork profiles deflected, bent, or were damaged when hitting heavy bone.. This is not a real surprise, and is part of the factors listed above.... One of course is construction, these bullets are copper, copper is not as hard as some other materials, and more subject to deforming. Pretty simple to understand that..... And should be of no surprise. The other is Nose Profile. While the old North Forks did very well in most all test work, and they most certainly perform great in the field, the nose profile itself is not the strongest profile out there. The long protruding nose, and this gets more defined going down in caliber, is subject to damage when contacting heavy material, bone, and some of the extremely stressful tests we have done here. The NEW NORTH FORK Nose Profile is a MUCH STRONGER profile, and in fact is about as good as it can be. In our tests here, while the old profile did very good, better than most in the extreme stress tests, it was still found to be weak in that department. But keep in mind, these can be extremes, and most likely not run into them in the field. Any bullet can be stressed enough to cause damage, even brass, I have several BBW#13s of brass that show movement after going through heavy bone on hippo and buffalo. This did not effect their straight line penetration, as best one can tell in the field, nor its bone crunching ability. Copper will show this too of course..... One of the very strongest Nose Profiles is the Barnes Banded FN solid, it is an extremely tough nose profile..... One would have to only look at these bullets logically to see this. One of the very worst offenders concerning construction is the Hornady DGS.... This is a weak bullet, and is one of the worst performers in extreme tests that we conducted. They never passed the complete test, as they would ball up like a soft point when hitting extremely hard material and try to continue, which they could not after that....... So it would not surprise me in the least if they distorted or went all to hell on heavy bone......... Recently a friend of mine returned from a very successful hunt for two elephants, in both cases using a BBW#13 Solid, one 450 gr 458 and the other a 510 gr .510 from a 500 Nitro.... Two elephants down for the count.... The PH using factory Hornady 500 gr DGS in 458 Lott fired a round in the shoulder area of one of the elephants, after it was down. He was quite amazed at the amount of penetration the #13s were giving, complete body pass throughs. He told my friend he had never seen a bullet exit an elephant, nor never had one of his exit. When they recovered that 500 gr Hornady DGS it had lost stability, hit some bone somewhere sideways, and damned near flattened out sideways. Now what happened to that bullet? I see several of the failures of the factors of terminal penetration of solids, or FMJs that might have occurred. First, it lost stability, hit bone sideways. The DGS has a less than desirable meplat size, I believe right around 55%. 55% meplat needs a faster twist rate to stabilize, at least for more stability and depth of penetration. I don't know what the twist rate of the PHs rifle was, nor do I even know what make or model. I do speculate that it might be possible that it was a slow twist, maybe 1:16 or slower perhaps, bullet did not stabilize and got sideways. I have tested the 500 Hornady DGS here, with good results, I had one go unstable for some reason, but for the most part dead straight, but all my rifles are 1:14, still not optimum as I believe 1:12 or even 1:10 would be far better with this bullet, but 1:14 was adequate for the most part here. So we see that meplat size for sure was a factor in this failure, and possible contributing factor might be twist rate of the rifle itself. Possible mind you.... Now, the other factor that caused it to flatten out, construction and material..... Stability being the most important in this failure, but it does not take a genius to see that construction is part of this in the end. Of course, a mono solid would not have done crap sideways, it might have bent, or been distorted as well......    Here are 3 405 gr .500 caliber #13 Solids that I hit a hippo with last July. You can plainly see the one on the far left contacted some heavy bone along the way. The other two are pristine.........  Here are two .416 350 gr #13s recovered from elephant....  A 325 gr .458 caliber fired as a test on that same elephant frontal head shot......  And here another 350 gr .416 #13 fired into the pelvis/spine of buffalo...... You can see it took a beating but got the job done.  The ability to crunch and munch bone is effected most certainly first I think by Construction and Material, and followed very closely by the Nose Profile........ And it is my belief that North Fork has a real winner with their New Nose Profile that came out a couple of years ago..... This new profile will increase the strength of the bullet when crunching bone, and it provides roughly 20-25% more penetration as well. This profile is stable right to the end of penetration in all tests here. The old profile at times would loose stability right at the very end of penetration, of little consequence, just the remaining couple of inches. However, the New Nose Profile in all tests here show it dead stable, right to the very end of penetration.   These are .458 caliber North Forks showing the New Nose Profile.....  Any and all solids can deform or be damaged when coming into contact with heavy bone. I have hit ball joints of lions and have one of the worst looking messed up Swift A Frames you ever seen in your life. I have hit ball joints of buffalo with both copper and brass solids and it make a mess of those bullets....... So nothing, maybe steel bullets, but nothing we are going to shoot in our big bores is Absolute. Nose Profile, and Construction/Material can make a positive difference however.............. The strongest nose profiles I have seen are the barnes Banded FN and the BBW#13 and New North Fork....... Caliber adds strength too by the way. Bigger crunches bone better......... No, All Round Nose are not created equal, and All Flat Nose are not created equal............ And a little word to the wise, there are a whole lot of uses for solids other than elephant heads...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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             http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The tests shown above do not reflect twist rate nor velocity......... None of which were done for twist rate.......   Same bullet at higher velocity, and faster twist.......  Twist rate is important to .416 caliber, as well as bullet design..........   And again, velocity is also a factor.......  Sectional Density   Of course its just silly to do any test work before going to the field. And silly to think wet print material can tell us anything! Yeah, right, keep telling yourself that........... We all will be listening I am sure......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Results speak for themselves....... However, for those that wish to discredit, or don't care for the results, the only recourse you have is to attack the test medium, or revert back to the tests are just not "Scientific Enough" to meet standards..... I can't find, nor can many others find fault with the test medium, bullet behavior remains basically the same especially for flat nose solids and expanding or trauma inducing bullets. Yes, all Round Nose Solids veer off course in the test medium... 100% of the time. Correlating data or tests between wet print medium, and animal tissue, with most all SOLIDS as a rule of thumb one can add somewhere between 30%-35% MORE PENETRATION in animal tissue, than in this test medium I use. RULE OF THUMB.. NOT ABSOLUTE... When RN FMJ or monos used in animal tissue are measured for depth of penetration, by most accounts it has penetrated ENOUGH to accomplish the mission, most of the time. And it seems to correlate back to data I have gathered,from other peoples measurements, even from JPKs own accounts of depth of penetration....Most of what I have gathered the data correlates back to that same 35% or so more penetration in animal tissue than this test medium even with RN solids. And that is MOST OF THE TIME, enough to accomplish the mission. Again, only a rule of thumb and no absolutes. And I did NOT say, nor INFER anything about RN veering off course every time in animal tissue.............. What we have seen in this test medium, is the same "Behavior" in ballistic gel, and then followed on to animal tissue. One must take into many factors with animal tissue, bone, field conditions, 1000s of other things that rise up to bite you...... In particular the results with the NonCons are very impressive and behavior of these bullet are EXACTLY THE SAME in this test medium, in ballistic gel, and in animal tissue. These bullets have been the focus of study for the last couple of years or so, with much time and energy devoted to them....... So, carry on, attack the test medium Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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While we are at the "8 Factors" of solid penetration, lets address Nose Projection above the bands, I keep searching for all the photos I have of this stuff, and cannot find all of them.. .My data is far more organized than the photos rest assured, but I did find these while looking for some of the other things..... This is a 325 #13 .458 Lever Gun Solid, note the nose is short, so it will work through the lever actions.....  This is another 325 gr .458 #13 Solid but with a longer nose projection that works in 458 Super Short, or any other bolt gun cartridge.......  While this is not an incredible increase in depth of penetration, at this low velocity, take note that as we increase velocity IN BOTH DESIGNS, the Short Nose 325 does not substantially increase in depth of penetration, the longer nose projection increases substantially with added velocity....... I will continue to look for higher velocity tests with the Shorter Nose Projection.......... Here we go, I found the photo I was looking for..... This is the SHORT NOSE PROJECTION 325 gr #13 Solid for Lever Guns, ran at 2585 fps the gain it had was very small compared to the test done at 1600 fps....... The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION 325#13 equals penetration of the LG bullet at a measly 1600 fps, That is nearly 1000 fps less...... Please tell me how nose projection is not an important factor in terminal penetration of solids?????????  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I think I recognize that .458 325gr solid tested and recovered from elephant-  and it was a very large bodied bull, not a small cow.  "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Todd, I misunderstood where you hit her. I think you are correct that if you hit the brain it would have been the right temporal lobe. I suspect that your bullet may have been a little low and that is why it ended up in the chest cavity. In my experience they usually end up along the top of the spine on that shot. But who knows for sure. 465H&H | |||
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Running across some interesting things while looking around...... This one could show the difference that Nose Profile makes.... First we look at a 375 gr OLD North Fork Profile .474 caliber We see that penetration is very good, it is straight, bullet is designed properly. But NOW IT HAS A NEW AND IMPROVED NOSE PROFILE close but NOT EXACTLY a 13 degree angle, I believe its something 11-12 degree as shown in one of the above posts.  Now enter a 350 gr .474 caliber #13 Nose Profile, yes, 75 fps or so more velocity, and also LESS SD...............  Todays .474 caliber 375 gr NORTH FORK, with its NEW PROFILE, would OUT PENETRATE the 350 #13, I bet MONEY ON IT........... I just have to get off my ass and get John to work on some of the new profiles for me................ http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I bet YOU DO..... I am VERY PROUD of that Little Fellow........................... Sean... Is this the one I recorded the wrong velocity? I think it is, and I never changed the label........... I think it is more around 2300 fps actually, and I recorded the velocity for the matching 295 NonCon?????? I THINK......... http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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JPK, Just an FYI, the corneal reflex can stay present for quite some time in a dead animal...even one with a bullet through the cerebral cortexes. As long as the bullet did not interupt the electrical pathway of nerves going to and from the hindbrain...as long as there is still neronal activity...the reflex can be present with a dead animal. Just respectfully sharing that piece of brain physiology with you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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As for meplat size being a factor, and I rate as "Factor #1" Note: While Sam did his best to get weights close, they are not equal. We tried to get velocity close, but it is not dead equal every time. Not perfect, but even so, in my opinion the results would be exactly the same, if everything was dead equal the same regardless...............          http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I think that explains the two eles. What is your take on the one that froze, stiffened and a (very quick) moment later had the lights in here eyes go out before toppling over? I think I killed her with a missed brain shot, I don't think it was a CNS shot because of the delay, but I spined a buff once and he froze, stiffened and then toppled as well. And an eland too thinking about it. On the buff and eland I wasn't watching the eyes, but with the ele you could see the rage in her eyes before the shot and for the briefest moment after she froze. The stiffening and the lights going out were about simultaneous, iirc, and then she toppled. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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An interesting thread, and I gained a good deal from it, mainly contrary to my past thinking there is ONLY ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I see two intermingled discussions here. One is taking about penetration with emphasis on straight penetration. The other is talking about energy/work and it impact on terminal performance in the critter. If a bullet veers to much it cannot hit the desired target area within the animal and thus may fail to adequately stop the critter thus straight line penetration is desirable to hit what you aim to hit. Work/energy is needed for the bullet to damage sufficient amount of tissue to bring the critter down. The argument here is that even with straight line penetration energy/work my not be directed to the proper location within the animal. There should be sufficient penetration to reach the desired target but then the energy/work should be expended destroying the tissue in or in close proximity to the target. Bullets that penetrate beyond the target zone do so only by expending energy/work. This energy/work could have been used to damage tissue and stop the critter if penetration had not continued. So I see the RN group, for want of a better term, indicating that the RN provides sufficient penetration to get to the desired spot but as penetration ceases the energy/work transfer increases causing more tissue damage and thus increasing the likelihood of stopping the critter. The FN group minimizes the potential for missing the desired spot by providing straight and true penetration. The characteristics of the FN projectile cause suitable damage so that they energy expended/lost for the head to tail penetration is not problematic to stopping the critter. I think most here would agree that if you get the bullet where it needs to go it will do the job as exemplified by Bell et. al. If both the RN an FN hit the target spot the critter dies. So is the FN "needed" to ensure we hit where we aim or is the RN "needed" to cause sufficient damage should the shot be less than perfect? NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Michael Will check my notes--but I also have some of that load left-will run it through the chrono this evening or tomorrow and get a definitive answer. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Damn near a convoluted dog mess I reckon, eh ELeeton?.........  For me, ME ONLY, rest of you do as you please. I will always err to the side of the very deepest penetration I can get. In fact, I will never be satisfied and will always want more. If I can shoot through 1 elephant from end to end, then screw me, I will want to shoot through two! I don't buy into energy dump. But lets say that you do a frontal elephant, and with a proper FN design get 8 ft of penetration, front to rear. Well, you have dumped the entire amount of energy in that animal, and not only that, but you have DESTROYED more tissue in the process as well! If one has missed the brain, the bullet just might pick up something vital going to the ass end? No doubt, more tissue is destroyed by deeper penetration.... I happen to believe that the flat nose with proper meplat hits harder up front, destroys and displaces more tissue, and does more damage than any round nose solid. This is seen readily in the size hole that is left. On buffalo they react very negatively to being hit with flat nose solids, something that amazed me the first time I used one in 2005 on buffalo. They take little notice of a round nose unless you can bust bone of course. Broadside shots that exit? I will take two holes over one hole every day of the week... Two holes, One shot. More blood flow, allows air into body cavity, none of that can be healthy? Lane??? I want to be able to get to any vital organ from any angle. Solids are used for way more than just elephant heads. I have used solids on many different animals over the last few years, including thin skinned game, always as a second shot or third, 4th what have you....... All with incredible good success, no animals lost........ I figure it this way, if a fellow shoots something and it does not drop to the shot, then pretty much you are looking at the ass end of an animal running away. Does one count on that Soft point to reach vitals from the rear? Of course, depends on the animal, but in most cases, that soft ain't gonna get there...... A good solid will get there, improve your chances of success, and maybe just keep you from loosing an animal in the process...... There are many good reasons to have a good solid, and no good reason not to.... That's me, Right, Wrong, In Between, don't care, this is what I want to see with my solids...... Anyone else can do as they please, this is what I am going to do. And this is what I have been doing........... The only thing I might change is if someone discovers a new solid that will drive deeper and straighter than what I got now! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Sean1975, I think you have not have gotten the answer you expected but thank you for opening the door to this discussion. I hope you get the info you need. Since I haven't shot any elephants and not too many other four legged critters I am always eager to learn from the experience of others. As an engineer by trade I enjoy much of the nuts and bolts and theoretical discussion that has transpired on this thread. Sometimes there are field observations that are not substantiated by law or theory. This typically means we derive the wrong conclusion from our field observations but in cases it may mean that the formula need to be corrected or a new formula created to explain what is actually occurring in the physical world. Simulation or lab testing can often fail to duplicate what may be encountered in the "real world" and thus is often called to task as a result. Field derived data can be problematic to collect. How many times is a properly documented necropsy performed to fully assess what happened inside the animal and why it happened? Until I get to shoot my first elephant, probably never, I will continue to enjoy the observations, comments, theories, photos and testing posted here on AR. A personal thank you to all who contribute. Eric PS I would like to see a head to head test with a RN and FN in ballistic gelatin. This would enable us to observe the temporary and permanent wound cavities of each. If you implanted pressure sensors along the bullet pathway that may yield some interesting information as well. NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Well...here is my theory. And it would work physiologically. You say you tend to err to the low side. I bet shot through the hindbrain (brainstem) at the level of the cerebellum. If you disconnect the brain there...they will stiffen rigidly before collapsing. It could happen with a low frontal especially if the ele had it head up high. And it could certainly happen from a side-brain if on the edge of missing to the rear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane Many times while in the field I will purposely use only solids to look at reactions of different animals, in particular buffalo. When I was in Australia in September last year I was using one of my 500 MDMs. I purposely took mostly light for caliber at higher velocity bullets of various designs to do some work. One of those bullets was a 375 gr #13 Solid. I had a big lone cow 35 or so yards out, hit her with one of these little solids at 2700 fps through the lungs (purposely) and it nearly knocked her over, she gathered back up and started running full out, second round took her in the shoulder and it was one of those fantastic running nose dives. These were hitting damn hard. None were recovered of course..... Talk about an excellent reason for using solids I think it was a couple of years ago I decided to conduct a brush busting test in particular with solids........ At the time, I was working with the then new 475 B&M. We built a "stick Holder" that would hold Three 1 Inch sticks, one behind the other, about 2-3 inches apart...... I had some left over construction material, had my guy saw up hundreds of 1x1 sticks about 10 inches long.  I wanted a fairly difficult test, so I set the holder up at 10 Feet in front of the target.... I wanted each bullet to hit all three sticks. I set the sticks where at least one stick would get hit on the edge. Now shooting was not always perfect, and I did not always get a side hit, or edge on every shot. I did however get at least one or two hits out of three that hit the edge of at least one stick. Using a 475 B&M, and all of the .474 caliber solids I had on hand I went to work..... Not all solids did well in the test, and North Fork and CEB came out on top in the end. This was a rather messy, and time consuming effort. I did not take the time to perfectly sight in each of the different solids I used, so what I did instead was shoot two rounds without stick to get the POI of each bullet, then shoot 3 rounds through the sticks holding the same POA. Then measured the total distance from the original POI and divided for average....... Looked a bit like this: This was the POI.... Point of Impact, for the 450#13 Solid  This is after hitting 3 1 inch sticks........ 10 feet behind the sticks......  This is the POI for the 425 North Fork Solids, Old Nose Profile.......  And the 3 rounds of 425 North Forks after going through 3 sticks 10 feet behind the sticks  Now here we see a 500 gr Hornady DGS.. POI First.....  And now after hitting 3 sticks and target 10 feet behind the sticks........  500 Woodleigh FMJ POI Target........  And the 500 Woodleigh FMJ 3 rounds after hitting 3 sticks, target 10 feet behind sticks....... One of the Woodleighs did not hit the target at all, and was over 6 inches off POI......  These were just some samples to show... I did a few more as well....... Here are the total results of that test....  I had intentions of carrying this test over to 416, 458, and .500 caliber, but in all reality, I figured for the most part results would be close to the same, and the overall Moral of the Story is DON"T SHOOT THROUGH BRUSH AND STICKS... If you can help it. However, sticks and brush are our enemies in the field, and perhaps one of the biggest reasons for many screwed shots.... I hit stick every damn year at some point, regardless of doing my best not to! This past year on the buffalo I shot with the 50 B&M Alaskan. He was running, 30 or so yards, I hit him first with a 365 #13 NonCon at 2175 fps, he took the hit behind the shoulder in mid stride, he took some notice of it, but continued on like a freight train. My second shot was the matching 405 #13 Solid at 2120 fps. This second shot hit a 3 inch tree 10 yards in front of me (I did not know it at the time, and we only realized this after viewing the video in slow motion), the 405#13 Solid dead centered the tree, continued onward to the buffalo, taking him dead straight through the stomach, and passéd completely through, exiting stomach. Now the next day, after seeing this only in the video, we went back to the spot, found the tree, found my bull's tracks where he was running, and he was exactly 30 steps behind that tree when he took the bullet. This bullet passed through a 3 inch tree, continued dead straight, hit the buffalo at 30 yards behind the tree, and exited the buffalo!!!!!!! I was rather pleased with that performance, and it allowed me to get another bullet in that buffalo and slow him down a bit more! Another good reason to have a solid, because I am fairly confident that no soft or even NonCon would have done that! When one considers this brush issue and thinks it through, I would never go into the brush after a wounded animal without this sort of confidence....... Whether it be buffalo, lion, or even a bear........ A good solid can solve a lot of issues and maybe a lot of problems.......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Agreed! Anytime I dive into the thick brush after DG, if I have a soft chambered...it gets replaced by a solid. What do you think about making a ballistic media cube with some schedule 80 3" PVC poured into the cube with the cores of the pipes filled with media to see if striking a round hard bone will deflect a FNS??? Or have you already done that? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Nope, have not done that, but I will tell you now, that is an EXCELLENT idea, it would be consistent, easy to work with (I think) and easy replaced after each test....... Surface round, very good...... Let's put some thought into that and see what we can come up with...... I don't have the Ballistic Gel that is now being used by CEB, but have been seriously thinking of getting some. Also, checking to see if I can get some hi speed video done, similar to the CEB with the various NonCons, or now Raptors..... I could easy do the PVC tests with current wet print medium as I still have an abundance of that, still working off that last 6000 lbs I got about a year ago...... Although I have less than half left, still plenty..... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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A similar test but with 3/4" plywood at a 45deg angle, to evaluate shoulder shots, would also be interesting. NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Your wet print medium would be great and schedule 80 PVC with the center also full of medium would closely mimic bone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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How about just packing the medium around the biggest bovine bones you can get? I see the Schedule 80 as too soft, allowing the bullet to get a bite, and likewise any medium inside being either abrasive or not of uniform hardness or slickness on the outer surface. Lane, I looked through Harland's "Hunting Imperitive" and the references to the 458wm data isn't there. I found a post of mine from some time ago referencing the data being in his other book "N'Dlouvu" and I haven't found that one yet. But my post cited Harland as finding his 458wm load running 2040fps and also noted that Thomson found his to be running 2050fps, both with the Winchester 500gr steel jacketed RN solid. My original 458wm loads were at 2030 or so in the heat, with IMR 3031. They worked, but... They cow that stiffened, froze and then toppled was killed by one of those loads and she was the biggest cow elephant I have ever seen. I killed one other with those loads that I recall, and knocked her down with a missed side brain shot before braining her with a side brain shot on her other side after she spun and ran past. Those loads had noticeably less penetration, on order of 9" or so, and less "thump" than the 2135fps load with AA2230. But those load had adequate penetration to traverse an elephant skull. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Actually...this has been looked at scientifically and schedule 80 PVC is harder than cortical bone...epecially bovine bone which is pretty soft. By packing the core with wet print media...I think it would mimic the spongy (medullary) bone in the cortex of most large animal long bones. Actually I think the best model might be cubes of real ballistic gel with some 3" or 4" schedule 80 pvc imbedded and the core of the pvc packed with wet print media. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yes...jsut as I remembered...those Winchester loads while advertised at 2150 fps were never found to excede ~2050 fps in any reference I can recall that actually tested them in a hunting rifle. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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And Harland's MS 458wm had a long barrel too. Not sure about Thomson's rifle. The 10fps difference can be attributed to lots of things, like barrel length maybe, or chamber dimensions, bore dimensions, even Harland getting tired of his sky screens being knocked over by blast and moving them further from the muzzle. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, Lane may well be correct in his theory. The brain is a very complex organ and different body functions are controlled by different parts of the brain. Damage to the brain doesn't always lead to instant death. Look at how many cases there are of human brains being pierced by bullets, shrapnel, arrows, knives and many other missiles and the victim survives with various mental handicaps. It seems that hunters always assume that if you hit the brain the animal is instantly killed. That is more than likely an unreasonable assumption. I have seen elephants after being knocked down and apparently unconscious, exhibit groaning, tail flicks, eye flutters, feeble trunk movement and leg movement or death kicks. In two cases the elephants went down and tried to get back up on their feet but couldn't do it. Their motor functions were impaired. Whether any of these animals would have eventually recovered and moved off, I don't know as I always give them an insurance shot to preclude their escape. The elephant brain is located centrally in the rear portion of the skull. The lower edge of the brain runs parallel to the flat portion of the zygromatiic arch and lies about mid way down the atch when seen from directly broadside at the same level as the arch. The closer you get to the ele, the more of the arch covers the brain. At 12 to 18 yards (the recommended distance that the professionals suggest that you take the shot), a bullet that passes just over the zygomatic arch will take the ele mid-brain, if not placed too far forward. The skull is hinged at the back of the head where the head connects to the spinal column. The first two neck vertebrae, the atlas and axis, allow up and down and side to side movement. That hinge is the place with the least movement when the elephant moves its head up or down or side to side. But if you hit it, your bullet will pass below the brain on its way through the skull. Except, if the head is carried very low such as in a charge. Another thing that is good to remember is that if the elephant raises its head to look down its nose at you, you are no longer looking at hitting the front of the brain but you are actually shooting at the underside of the brain, which is a much larger target. In any case no matter what the head position aim for a line half way between the ear holes. If the bullet is accurately placed you have your best chance at making successful brain shot.. 465H&H | |||
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465H&H, I have been successful on my brain shots (counting only first shots - I have managed to brain an elephant with a subsequent shot twice when I missed the first brain shot) thirteen out of eighteen tries, 72%, not counting a bull that came upwind hunting for us and broke thick cover at 7yds, which I stopped but which we lost. I was the only one in a position to shoot as he came up an old termite mound. He spun and was gone, no blood. Within that "successful" count is one bull where, on a frontal shot at about 10 or 11yds, the bullet broke the ball joint at the head/neck junction, I suspect what you are calling the axis and atlas. There is definitely a ball joint there, and the surround bone and the ball were both broken (by a 500gr Woodleigh) as we found when we cut the bullet out. The bullet needed prying to get out of the joint, iirc. The bull collapsed as perfectly as one could wish, with the head and trunk thrown high and the hind legs collapsing, in fact he collapsed so perfectly I had time to shoot my second barrel into his chest, through his heart, and it exited between his shoulder blades (450gr NF FN.) I was more than a little surprised when his eyes appeared to follow us, as we approached and moved to his side. He got another insurance shot despite the gusher coming out of his chest. Within the five misses, one was at a charging cow at 7yds or so, and I stopped her with one barrel, and missed her brain with the second as she spun. I definitely shot low on the first shot, and again on the second; she had her down to gore or plow Dave Hulme, who had asked to come along for the walk to take photos. Rich Tabor missed the brain shot as well, but she was spinning when he shot. Rich Tabor got one and I got three rounds into her ranging from broadside to quartering away before she disappeared at 35yds or so in the heavy low velt riverine cover at Humani - my three the advantage of ejectors! She was dead when we followed he up after 10 minutes. I missed another frontal on a cow that was below me, again shooting too low, not adjusting properly for my height over her. On one I categorize as a miss, we found a divot from a 450 NF FN in the flat bone of the zygomatic arch just below the ridge, about 4" in front of the ear hole, iirc. Had the bullet penetrated I believe this would have been successful, do you concur? It was this elephant that got me switching back to Woodleighs for the first shot. I have had trouble on side brain shots, and the only successful one, other than typical insurance shots from up close, was on a running cow at 10yds after missing with the first barrel. As she ran I got a good look at the ear hole and my bullet went in about an inchin front of it. Your "landmarks" are more helpful and obvious than what I have been working off, which is the ear hole, not always visible, and the profile of the ear/head joint with the flap over the earhole, often lost in shade or other poor lighting. Thanks for the tip! I have wondered about the possibility of having hit the brain on those two elephant where we didn't cut the skull open, and the incidents of humans who lived through shootings or other mishaps where a bullet or something else penetrated the skull and brain. The largest cartridge I read of where the human survived was a 38spcl. While I wondered if an elephant might not die immediately from a brain shot on the fringe, I figured the larger bullet of a 458wm and the energy it transfers would switch the lights out. BTW, six of the elephants I brained ended in the sphinx position. That seems to be a higher ratio that typical, and I attribute it to my tendency to shoot low, and thus hitting the lower brain or the joint rather than higher in the brain, and ending all motion. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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While I agree with everything .465 had to say...I am going to add this. 99.9% of people shot in the brain that lived were incapacitated and would have died with out treatment to decompress the the brain and prevent infection. So...it is still unlikely that you hit the brain and the animal does not go down for the count...long enough at least that more shots will end it. The brain stem hit while could leave the alive for a few minutes is always going to totally incapacitate and kill eventually. A pass through the outer cerebral hemispheres (outer forebrain) is the only possible hit that I could think of that might not put an ele down...although it will likely kill the ele eventually. All kinds of brain hits could leave the ele alive albeit down and out for a little bit. Maybe 5-10 minutes...with intact reflexes, heartbeat and breathing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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JPK, Obviously, you are a damn fine game shot with a big bore. I have only had two elehants end up in the sphynix position out of 21 or 22 head shot animals. It would be hard to determine whether the one where you hit the zygomatic arch would have been struck in the brain with out knowing the range, height of the ele and the angle that the bullet hit the arch. 465H&H | |||
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That ele was pretty far, about 30 or 35yds or so. He was a bull carrying about 40lbs a side. Last day of the safari, and we couldn't get closer because of a cow heard between us and him. The shot was straight, no elevation of the barrels or very little because of range and the fact that we were on slightly higher ground. The shot was slightly angled to the rear of the ele. The gouge showed the bullet turning toward his rear. Interestingly, I just assumed I'd missed the brain shot, but one of the trackers who watched the shot thought something was amiss and went looking and found the gouge. He found what looked to be an entrance wound on the front of the shoulder too, but the hole didn't go all of the way through the skin. That ele rocked on his haunches at the shot, but recovered quickly, spun and nearly made it to the Mana Pools boundary before the appy along spined him with a 458wm on his second shot, shooting my ammo since he couldn't afford his own! One of the tusks had a 375 bullet in it, which was found up in the nerve. When I look at it I wonder what happened to the fellow who shot it. Strawberry jam maybe. On being a good shot with a big bore, well, I don't rate myself as high as you seem to, I think I am inconsistent and I'm not sure why. I will miss a chip shot on an ele and then make a shot I wasn't sure I could make, like a running side brain shot, or like a klipspringer in the rocks at 75 or 80yds (the shot with my double that I am most proud of.) Comparing % of successful brain shots with 500grs, he was slightly better, and I believe he is a better big bore shot than I am as well. I will say that when I miss a brain shot the ele ends up with a lot of holes in it. There will usually be at least one from the PH if I miss a brain shot, I shoot a double and I hunt waterfowl quite a bit and swinging through a fast moving target is second nature, and reloading is also second nature, not being much different than a couple of side by side shotguns I hunt with. FWIW, I was having a conversation with Roger Whittall over beers and the topic of missing some brain shots came up. He confessed that he wasn't perfect, and confessed on behalf of Barry Duckworth too, and Barry was a tetse control culler. He also told me he discouraged his clients from taking brain shots. I fear that with all of this discussion I have become infected wit the elephant bug again... JPK Free 500grains | |||
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See...something always good comes of these discussions!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Again, I am in agreement with Lane and should have included his comments in my post. All of the elephant that I have shot that were or may have been hit in the brain were at least knocked down and incapacitated. Some appeared to be brain dead although showing some muscular or eye movement. Another possibility for an elephants survival would be a side brain shot that hit the very front part of the brain. The portion that used to be removed when the frontal lobotomy was performed. But Lane would have a better idea on that than me. Many hunters have said that the side brain shot is easier the frontal. One reason for that may be that on that shot, both left and right hemispheres of the brain are usually hit. This may cause more damage and more instant incapacitation. 465H&H | |||
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Maybe, but the timing is off. Remember my PM on the marlin fishing! Free 500grains | |||
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Agree totally. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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There was a report in one of Lyman's older manuals that the White Laboratories tested the .458 Win Mag ammo and it came out about what was published by Winchester : around 2150 fps as I recall. I have it somewhere and will look it up. Also, a very close friend went to Kenya in the early sixties and spent his entire adult life at the Rift Valley Academy where he was a teacher and administrator. He took both an M70 in .458 WM and in .300 WM. His avocation was hunting eles and buff, as well as zebra, wilderbeast, etc... He shot many eles and buff with the factory ammo and NEVER reported any failures! Of course, things were shut down on the hunting front in 1977. He then turned to golfing!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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