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JWP475.......
You could preach until there is ice in hell and it would make zero difference to some people, Alf being one. This is why I don't even address anything Alf has to say, he is of little to no consequence. Problem is, Alf and like folks would never acknowledge anything that has been done here, test work, pressures, terminals, nothing, as I am not an "accredited", or "acknowledged" by someone who has written a book or something such as that. I don't get paid by anyone to do what I do, regardless of what it may be at the time. Since I don't get paid, or since I have not written a book on anything, and have no desire to do so, then to these folks I have no value. Regardless of how I would choose to test, it would never ever meet their expectations, regardless of any outcome. One chap, trax, stated it this way... "Backyard Person"..... I don't mean to inject, but more or less a "Backwards ass Hillbilly" is how these sort think of me. Fine, like I said, to me, they are of no consequence. I do what I do, for myself first, and I also like to assist and help other shooters if possible. I started terminals, B&Ms, pressure tests, for myself, for my use, so that I might be more successful in the field. I believe I have assisted a few other real shooters along in the process as well. And that is a good thing. In the end, I cannot totally win... What I mean by that, since I don't get paid, no part of a bullet company, and not accredited or acknowledged, or have not written a book, then the work done here is discredited by people like Alf, Trax, and a few others. However, if I did get paid by a bullet company, or someone else for doing anything at all, then I would be biased and my opinion or test work would again be questioned because of that! So either way, it makes no difference, I get the same crap from them one way or the other. Problem is, each and every one, cannot prove me wrong! All they can do is "Say" I am wrong because of this, that or the other, but none have taken the time nor effort to prove anything I have done "WRONG"..... Just bullshit hearsay, or bullshit frothing at the mouth..... As for the rest of you, believe as you please. I am like the good marine "I have mine, how did you make out?" Choose to believe and give it a try, or not, its no skin off my ass. If I can help any shooter, then I am happy to do so. If you don't wish to believe me, or have me assist you, then I got plenty of my own projects to do, I am pleased to not waste my time on such nonsense, I don't have to prove anything, its up to them to prove me wrong.... If possible, and they do, then I am not stupid enough to deny, I would like to learn myself as well... I have done my homework and I believe rather well, I have proven anything I have done, both here in my lab (if you wish to call it that), at my expense, and in the field at my expense, and everything I have done in the "lab" has proven itself in the field, everything right down the line. Its gonna take a lot more to prove me wrong than just some dick saying it....... With that said, I have to get back on the range, doing some pressure tests in 416 B&M and not real pleased with the outcome, so I am doing some new powders in 416 B&M and 350 #13 Solids, problem is, I am nearly out of bullets, but have 500 of them ordered, and should be here tomorrow....... Happy shooting....... Gotta go......... Have real things to do. Wonder how many rounds Alf has tested today? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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For whatever it might be worth, Will is right, 5,000lbs' of energy has over the last century and more proven to be about the point at which a rifle can be considered an elephant stopper. In my experience, with body shots or frontal brain shots the flat nose 450 will out penetrate the 500gr round nose every time, but as 465H&H noted, this trait doesn't apply to side brain shots. I have not tried top down but once or twice and didn't dig for bullets, so I don't know about that aspect. In any event, a 500gr round nose solid will penetrate deep enough on an elephant to kill it with any prudent brain shot or prudent body shot. I also have observed that a 500gr round nose bullet has more effect on an elephant than a 450 flat nose. In addition the 500gr round nose is more reliable for penetrating hard bone. My 500gr round nose Woodleighs travel 2135fps, the 450NF's at 2,200fps. JWP475, When a bullet stops in a game animal or any other target, 100% of the potential work that bullet carried due to mass and velocity have been expended in the target. Some via heat, some via penetration, some via tissue damage. When a bullet exits it is still carrying some of that original potential work and less than 100% of that potential has been expended in the target. Even so, I like exits, eh! I resolved the performance difference between heavier but slower 500gr round nose solids and lighter but faster 450gr flat nose solids long ago by loading a 500gr for the first shot and a 450gr for the second. Your more reliable stopper and hard bone penetrator is first, your deep penetration specialist is there for a follow on body shot if required. Also fwiw, AA2230 beats the heck out of every other powder I have tried, including H335. I have tried AA2230 loads in temps in the 40's and over 100F and there is no noticeable velocity change, which cannot be said of some alternatives I have tried. Lastly, isn't it patently obvious that anyone who ignores significant experience with killing elephants in a discussion centered on killing elephants is a fool? JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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No one is ignoring significant experience with elephants, but one can have significant experience with elephants or any other game and still be "ballistically challenged." Most bullets designed for hunting them, I'd wager we're designed by those with little to no experience with them. The two are not one and the same. I recall your elephant that took both barrels in the head at very close range and was lost despite the fact that there was over 10,000 FPE. The old 4 and 2 bore had much more energy than 5,000 foot pounds yet were less effective, why was that? The bullet? Maybe. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I've no dog in the fight but will throw a few comments into the mix. The 500gr bullet & 5000ft-lbs energy as an elephant stopper requirement eliminates the 'benchmark' 450 NE with its factory loaded 480gr bullet. And a substantial number of the 1000 or so elephant killed by Bell were done with a 7mm FMJ bullet. Guess he was stupid cause he didn't comport with the 500gr 5000ft-lbs elephant requirement. I've also read he didn't care as the Safari was months long and they'd circle back through previously hunted areas so the native folk could pull the tusks from rotting carcasses. Dead now vs dead days later resulted in the same amount of ivory taken during the Safari. Not a pretty thought but that was ivory hunting in the early 20th century. It's different times folks. The 19th century was predominately lead bullets with C&C construction bullets starting to take a market share of DG hunting. The 20th century was predominately C&C construction bullets with monometal bullets starting to take a market share DG hunting. The 21st century has seen monometal bullets of proper design for the specific intended DG game animal taking a substantial market share as C&C bullets are forced to undergo continual redesign improvements to compete with monometals. If 21st century hunters had the unfettered access to African DG that early 20th century hunters enjoyed I'm sure the number of elephants killed with monometal bullets would exceed the number killed by C&C construction bullets (excepting those killed by AK 47s) and the 21st century would be known as the century of monometal DG bullets. However DG hunting in the 21st century is becoming more limited due both to the number of animals available to be hunted and the annually increased cost of the hunt. Therefore it will take centuries of DG hunting for monometal bullets to overtake the number of DG animals killed with C&C construction bullets. That however does not mean C&C construction bullets are better than monometal bullets - it only means the availability of an equalizing number of DG animals does not exist. That's my nickels worth of comments. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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JPK Michael has FAR more experience than you and Will combined.. He has probably shot more big bore rifle rounds the past year than you and Will have in a lifetime..together... He has payed attention to details all the way. Testing and developing ... I dont just think Michael is right. ...... I know it... | |||
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The bullets were designed and then field tested, same then as now. What didn't work was culled. Yes, the bull took 10,000lbs at 7yds while in full charge, BUT HE WAS STOPPED!!! The elephant wasn't being hunted, he was shot to stop him and that was Will's point. Would have been nice if he had been killed, but believe me, that result, while tried for and wished for, was a distance second to making sure he didn't kill someone. Will gave the recipe for a stopping rifle, which remains the same today as when it was discovered you could reasonably reliably stop an elephant with a rifle. About 5,000lbs' of energy and a .458" 480gr solid. Nothing has changed, though some would argue that a 400gr 40 cal bullet with 5,000lbs' is also a stopper. I do suspect that the 2 and 4 bores were not as effective as they might have been if they hadn't pulverized the shooter. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I have no doubt that Michael has shot more big bore rounds than Will and I combined, and done it in the last year. However, Will and I have killed on order of 40 elephants, add in 465H&H and the number is likely more than 60. Please identify anyone else who has that magnitude of actual, real world experience. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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He was stopped by energy? Or was he turned by his injury of the bullet penetration? He was turned not stopped, you did not find him. The 2 bores if memory served had over 10,000 pounds yet didn't take ele's as well as the small bores in use today, because of the bullets. Not the energy and that is the point. Energy doesn't determine what is best. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I have myself shot 11 elephants. One (the first) with Woodleigh RN FMJ - all others with FN solids of different makes. But I have tested many Woodleigh RN solids, Hornady RN and DGS solids and lots of GSC FN´s, North Fork FN´and Barnes FN´s on the dead elephants. CEB FN´s as well - but only on dead hippos.. FN´s was totally superior in every way. No matter what shot and what angle and what animal.. I am sure that if Michael and Sam and many others combine their experience we are far above 60 elephants if that means so much to you…? I don't think the bullet/terminal ballistic issues is dependant on how many elephants you shot.. More important is attention to detail and how many bullets are fired into live and dead animals.. / | |||
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I have read a few of the posts and want to say that I agree with those that put AA2230 above all other powders.It is more like a magical powder in that nothing can compare to its pressure/velocity numbers.I have tried many powders in 458WM and by far the worst was R7.Stay away from that if you want to play it safe. | |||
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AA 2230 is indeed an extremely good powder in 458 Winchester, however there are others that are very good as well. In our recent work here in 458 Winchester here are some results with the 450#13 Solid....... While AA 2230 is great, do watch your powder and each time you refresh that powder start again..... In 2011 I did not do pressure tests, but obtained 2341 fps with 74/AA 2230 in a M70 24 inch barrel. In December 2013 I had to purchase some new AA 2230, and got quite different results. 74/AA 2230 only gave me 2222 fps at 57281 PSI. I was able to go to 77/AA 2230 for 2311 fps and 59453 PSI..... A bit of difference between the 1# can in 2011, and the AA2230 I just got last month. IMR 8208 and X Terminator were equal to AA 2230, TAC, H-4895, and V-N530 were right up there as well about 20-25 fps slower. H-322, RL 7, IMR 3031, and Benchmark were all in the 2250 fps range at top end pressures. AA 2520 and Varget came in at 2200-2230 fps at top end, and IMR 4198 and H-4198 both at 2150 at top pressures. I did a couple of blends quickly one Saturday one with 65% RL 15 + 35% RL 7 that reached 2272 fps at 60000 PSI, and another 50% RL 15 + 50% RL 7 that hit 2280 for 61000 PSI, not much difference, but both right in with top end loads. Mike Jines mentioned using I believe 66/RL 7 with a 500 gr bullet. I used 66/RL 7 with the 450 for 2270 and 62300 PSI. Max. I am sure a 500 would be way over max pressure, weight equals pressure. Of course, my RL 7 is not Mike's RL 7 either! All the 450 North Forks ran a tad slower at max pressures, and used a couple of grains less, mainly attributed to being seated deeper than the #13s........ These were old nose profile North Forks as well.... Newer Profiles would equal the #13s as they are a bit shorter.... Regardless of powder chosen, when starting a new batch, start over..... Not all powder is created equal, even with the same name, and even in the same lot#........... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I guess I have to be put in that low down catagory with Alf but surely we have a right to our opinnions. As to Alfs experience, he was born and raised in Africa, and both he and I have hunted Africa extensively and have hunted all of Africas big 4...I also consider Alf one of the most knowledgable posters on AR, both as an African expert and a firearms expert and collector.. I think Michael gets over the top and it is "his way or the high way" as far as correctness goes. I certainly believe Michael has a right to express himself, and I don't discredit his thinking, it has merit and if it works more power to him, but he needs to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I also know that 500 gr. round nose and flat nose solids work and have for centuries. Many thousands of elephants have fallen to a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2100 or so FPS., so Buffalos 11 elephants and report pale by his own standards. Speaking for myself, I have always been one to try other methods and been a bullet digger for 60 years, got shoe boxes full of recovered bullets, tested Woodleighs 350 gr. bullets and North Forks SP, cup points and flat nose solids when Mike started making them in his shop and forwarded reports on them..Been friends with GS Customs for years and tested most of their bullets.. All that said, there are two schools of thought on the subject, lets listen to each other and make our decision based on actual use of the bullets in question. If we were all sitting around a campfires the discussions would be considerably more polite, therein lies the problem with the internet, its getting like politics on the hill. Its campfire talk only, and in the scheme of things makes little difference anyway. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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You can add in my 5 elephants as well to the equation. 2 bulls, 3 cows. All taken with flat nosed monometal solids. I have yet to have an elephant make it a single stride from where it was hit with the first shot. 4 fell in their tracks, with the fifth turning 90 degrees before being hit with a side brain second barrel, the result of the frontal brain shot being too high. In all of those, each animal received at least one insurance shot, with as many as 4 shots total (as seen in the first tuskless video I posted). To the best of my recollection there have been 14 shots fired at those 5 eles, with 5 bullets recovered. Two of those recoveries were found on the ground near the elephant and had been complete pass throughs. One, the .577 750gr CEB BBW#13 from the too high frontal, was found about 10 inches in front of the base of the cow's tail. Full length penetration of the entire elephant. Forget about just making it to the back of the skull!! I'm 100% completely convinced that the FN monometal design is the absolute best available bullet on the market today for hunting elephants and I'll be sticking to that! I do like the 5,000 fpe theory on "stopping" eles however, but I don't think that is all there is to the equation. Frontal area in terms of caliber is also paramount in this equation IMO. Given 5000fpe with a .510 bullet vs the same energy with a .416 bullet, and I'll choose the .510 bullet every single time!! I'm no formally trained ballistician for sure, but I like having enough momentum to drive that big, fat, bullet deep into the animal. I do hold the opinion that there are two factors at play with shooting elephants in the head, that being killing and stopping, which are different in certain circumstances. Certainly, if one drives that bullet squarely into the brain, killing it, a stop will be affected! But I've also dropped elephant in their tracks with the 500NE where the brain was missed (non fatal hit) but the elephant went to the ground, effectively stopping it on the spot. No, a bullet isn't going to knock an elephant down with brute force, and I can't explain it in scientific terms, but obviously some amount of energy transfer is occurring when a large diameter bullet smacks the skull. Whatever that process is, it's enough to either "shock" the brain enough to achieve a temporary "knock out" similar to the way a boxer hit squarely on the chin is "knocked out", or it at least causes enough pain to alter the elephant's desire to press home the charge (turned). Can you get that same effect with a 375 when the brain is missed? Don't know. Never shot an elephant with a 375 and probably never will unless it's an emergency situation. I would argue it's possible but I'll bet you a pound to a pinch the distance by which one can miss the brain and get a stop with a 375 is something less than the distance the same result can be achieved with a 500NE! And by the way, let's be clear here. We are talking elephants, not cape buffalo. Buffalo, when pressing home a charge, require hitting the CNS to affect a STOP! They don't seem to be affected in terms of a stop or turn in the same way an elephant is. One word about Michael's testing, and I've said this before. I try to develop my opinions based on fact, or as close to fact as one can get. Absent "old wives tales" that are often the result of marketing campaigns when you get down to the source of the matter. One of the things I value the most about Michael's work is that if one follows along on the terminal thread, as well as the double rifle of the future threads, back at the start of both of those, you'll readily find results that went counter to his expected results. However, since he has no financial interest in promoting these bullets, he had no reservations on posting the failures along with the successes. No marketing involved but rather a guy working toward finding what really works, not what can be most easily sold. Those two were often at odds as most cheap ass bolt guns can be made to feed the round nose bullets with minor work whereas getting the FN to feed is often a bit more complicated. Regardless, the goal was to find the best bullet, not the best seller ... whatever it took. And on that topic, one can go back and read as he developed his methods as the testing progressed. Whenever Michael found that his testing method was flawed, he addressed that as well, going back over ground already covered to reprove, or sometimes disprove, the work now with the refined test procedure. So, can one say his methods are completely unflawed and 100% accurate? Doubtful. But I do know the results of his tests have not been altered or designed to produce a certain result based on compensation from the particular bullet manufacturer being tested. From that standpoint, I have absolute confidence in adopting his test results in forming my opinions. The field experiences I've had with both the Barnes Banded Solid, North Fork Solid, CEB BBW#13 Solid, as well as the CEB Non-Cons (now called Safari Raptors) has been spot on in line with Michael's tests and have far exceeded any of the bullets I used in the past. The one possible exception being the TSX bullet from Barnes as an expanding bullet. I'm still not convinced that bullet isn't top of the heap in terms of a "soft point" as I've taken a crap load of animals with it and with only a VERY FEW exceptions, all have been DRT and fell in their tracks. I have yet to have to "track" a wounded animal with the TSX bullet when properly hit. | |||
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Exactly! And it was the .450 NE that set the bar. The .458 WM original intent was to duplicate the .450 NE which it does nicely. The traditional bullet for the .450 NE was 480 gr. In reality...the difference between the 2 (.500 vs .450) is barely more than a .22 LR bullet...on impact of a solid...I highly doubt that an ele can feel the 50 grs more of bullet weight. On buffalo I think the FPS give a much greater reaction in the animal on impact that RNS do...but that is just my subjective opinion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Count them up and count the observed performance of the bullets. You are at 18% if all eles were one shot kills and if we didn't shoot into dead eles to test bullets. I shoot into dead eles to test bullet performance, so does 465H&H. Not sure about Will. One thing that cannot be tested on dead animals other than elephants is the bullets' ability to penetrate specific bone, for example the shelf of bone below an elephant's ear hole which must be penetrated if your side brain shot is from close. I have seen a NF deflect on this shot for example. In addition, you can't test for elephant reaction to specific bullets without shooting at live elephants, and unfortunately, you can't test for elephant reaction with a perfect brain shot either! Flat nose bullets have their place in elephant hunting, for penetrating flesh, as required on a follow up shot. Perhaps a hard brass flat nose won't deform or deflect and will deliver the knock down or out performance of the heavier round noses, but I won't shoot them in my rifle. (Interestingly, as often as Woodleighs deform, I have always found them where I expected to find them, unlike NF flat noses, which have curved in their in flesh trajectory or out and out deflected on bone, leaving divots but failing to penetrate. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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He was stopped in his charge by energy not injury. That is what stopping rifles are for. About 5,000lbs' of energy or better and a 480gr or better bullet of .458" diameter or better. The tracks told us the elephant was feeding and chasing cows the next morning. His headache had subsided and he was back to doing what bull elephants do. Not a lot of injury there. Ever cut apart an elephant's skull? If you don't brain him or spine him there isn't anything there. The early 450's and other elephant rifles, the 470NE in particular, all suffered from less than adequate bullets, but I believe that many of the instances of poor performance of the big bore rifles had to do with the poor shooting generated by the immense recoil. Ever read any of the first hand accounts? Nose bleeding, concussion, being spun around, blacking out, seeing stars. Doesn't lend itself to decent shooting. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Michael, I see that even though we have been discussing these issues for several years we are still not communicating very effectively. Your last post is very interesting in that it lists several misconceptions you have about my opinion on FN and RN solid bullets. Here are a couple of examples of how you are misconstruing what my options are: 1. I have never ever said that RN solids are better than FN solids. Nor do I believe that FN solids are better for all hunting applications than RN solids. Both have their uses depending on what you need the bullet to do in the case at hand. 2. I have never been reluctant to say that FN solids penetrate deeper than RN solids in soft tissue. Quite the contrary as in my experience that have done just so. But also in my experience FN solids of equal caliber, weight and velocity do not penetrate farther than RN solids on head shots other than on full frontals head shots. 3. I am not sure from your post if you misunderstood my post on compression. To clarify, I have no problem with using compressed loads and still do so for several calibers. When I first started loading the 550 grain Woodleighs in my Lott, I had to use a highly compressed load to reach my target of 2,150 fps with that bullet. I put on my normal crimp and several days later noticed that the bullets were inching forward in the cases. Applying a much heavier crimp solved the problem I would hate the have that happen in my shell carrier on a hunt and only notice it when trying to make a hurried reload in the thick of battle. As far as clumping goes, several Zim hunters and PHs have reported clumping in reloaded as well as factory 458 ammo stored for several years when loaded with one of the South African Sochem powders. Also I have heard that Hornady has advised to use their 458 ammo within 6 months to be on the safe side. I haven't heard their reason for that warning. As to your sake of argument example on soft vs solid tissue damage and its relation to energy, muzzle energy isn't as important as the amount of energy that is dumped into the animals body. A solid bullet that exits the animal expends some of its energy on the trees behind the animal. The faster it is going the more of its energy that is wasted on the hill side behind the animal. While the soft that stops under the skin on the off side, expends all of its energy in the animal. More energy dumped = more tissue damage, a relatively simple fact. In the example you give of two equal bullets in weight and velocity it is the velocity on contact that is important not at the muzzle. I was wondering which bullet design FN or RN sheds velocity faster? Any info on that? We can measure the amount of energy transfer if we know the velocity of the bullet at impact and the bullet stays in the animal but we can't calculate it for one that exits. I could say more but I am afraid that most are already bored with our discussion. CHEERS my friend! Walt | |||
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I don't doubt that there are some combinations that work well in the 458wm, but a lot of the powders listed show significant velocity and therefore pressure changes with temperature changes. That can be problematic from a safety and gun function point of view, and it sure doesn't help with accuracy either. The Hogdon Extreme powders are ADA powders developed for the Australian defense forces, imported by Hogdon and specifically developed to be temperature insensitive. H4895 is one example, and I believe H335 is as well. I tested AA2230 and it was fine. Some of the IMR powders reflected EXTREME variation. If you're developing and testing loads in Texas or Fla in July or August that October or November elephant hunt isn't going to be too much problem. Not so if you're in Maine or Wisconsin and use a powder that shows lots of temperature sensitivity! Also, FWIW, North Fork Mike pressure tested my NF loads and they were within SAAMI specs. 2200fps or so provides fantastic penetration in muscle and other soft tissue and organs. I have to load to shoot to regulation in my rifle, and need to stop when I get there, even if there is more velocity, i.e. energy, to be had. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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The original formula in the day of the three 450 Nitro expresses along with the 475 No2 and the 465H&H used a 480 grain bullet minimum. When these calibers become almost extinct and the 470 and 458 Win rulled the roost it was changed to the 500 grain bullet that they used. A rose by any other Name..... 465H&H | |||
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Wow. I'm the op of this thrash pit. Some good stuff... Some kinds amusing and some just, well, interesting. I can say this, I'm not a guy who believes that energy kills beings that it's theoretical anyway. It's the size of the hole the bullet makes and how deep it goes. Helps like mad if it's in the right spot to do the killing. I also believe that the 458 wm doesn't need to be a Lott to be good to go. I actually don't want the bolt throw of the Lott to be honest. I like my new whitworth express 458 quite a lot just the way she is. I like the Lott as well but I wouldn't convert to one and alter my rifle. I just wanted to see what other powder choices you all had been using with the 500 grainers in the 458. I use 2230. I know that the 400 to even 480s are better than the 500 in the 458 but what in North America will notice? A big bear? I doubt it. They are tough but not as dense as some of the african game. A 500 at 2050-2150 fps will enter and exit from any angle on one. I didn't mean to stir the pot. Really. Now shake hands you guys, have a beer and cool off. Lol. | |||
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If energy transferred then the ballistics pendulum could measure it. The pendulum measures momentum because that is what is transferred. Energy transfers in an elastic collisions a bullet strike is an inelastic collision. Only a small amount of energy transfers in an inelastic collision most of the energy is transformed into other forms of energy. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I disagree on the energy stopping him. Bell talked of turning elephants with his 7X57 if memory serves and that ain't no 5000 FPE or a 480-500 grain bullet _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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 Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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No it does not it measures momentum _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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IMR 8208 XBR IMR 8208 XBR The latest in the versatile IMR line of fine propellants, this accurate metering, super short grained extruded rifle powder was designed expressly for match, varmint, and AR sniper cartridges. Ideally suited for cartridges like the 223 Remington/5.56mm, 308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO and the 6mm PPC, shooters will find IMR 8208 XBR totally insensitive to changes in temperature , while yielding max velocities and “tack driving” accuracy. Clearly, the competitor’s “choice” and the Varmint Hunter’s “dream powder”. http://www.imrpowder.com/shotpist.html Ramshot and Accurate Powders Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures. However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions. More elaboration on the subject: Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs , either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies. Because the ballistic performance at extreme temperature is completely dependant on the specific combination, it is very difficult to quantify and qualify. Our standard powders perform very well at extreme temperatures, and usually pass the strict military requirements by a large margin. This is a subject that often fraught with misconceptions and inaccuracies. The term is used loosely by manufacturers without qualifying the subject, and is obviously exploited for marketing purposes and perceptions. The facts are: • Although powders can be improved, it’s really only possible with advanced coating procedures and additives which increase the cost. • A particular powder can be improved re temperature stability for certain combinations, within a certain envelope which is specific to the following three main parameters/aspects ◦ The caliber. ◦ The weight of the projectile/bullet. ◦ The performance level. If any of these parameters/aspects go beyond or outside the intended ratio/s, the results will change and the performance will sometimes be different. It is also very important that when a comparison is made, that all conditions re weapon i.e. components primer, case, bullet and the velocity are equal, and preferably done at the same time on the same day. http://www.ramshot.com/faq/ http://www.accuratepowder.com/faq/ Vihtavuori powders. Lapua recommends Vihtavuori powders for reloading. The selection covers more that 20 different types – a right choice for all disciplines, guns and shooting styles. Vihtavuori reloading powders • Are manufactured by highly qualified employees of Nammo Vihtavuori Oy in Laukaa, Finland • Ensure clean burning and repeatable shooting properties in all weathers and conditions • Have uniform and superb quality based on full control of the whole production chain beginning from the production of nitrocellulose to the bottling of the end product • Strict quality acceptance limits have helped reloaders and cartridge manufacturers to achieve similar loads regardless of the production lot for more than 85 years • Have achieved a strong position among top class shooters around the world • Are available with 26 different powder types, which can be divided to four different product families: Hodgdon Extreme Our exclusive line of extruded rifle powders – Hodgdon Extreme™ – was developed to give shooters consistent performance, load after load, in even the most extreme heat and cold . H-4198, H-322, Benchmark, H-4895, Varget, H4350, H4831, H1000, Retumbo, H50BMG http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks Michael for providing a list of some of the temperature insensitive powders. I know from experience that IMR3031 is EXTREMELY sensitive, and a lousy powder for the 458wm anyway. I have been told that the Alliant powders are sensitive too, but do not know one way or the other for sure. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Alf, I understand what you are trying to convey, but you are missing what I was trying to convey. Yes, the wound that stopped the elephant's charge was the result of the transfer of energy to the elephant, but the wound was nothing but a whole through the vast emptiness of the elephants skull, hit no organs and not much if any muscle. So, the nature of the wound didn't stop the elephant from charging, like a wound caused by a brain shot or a heart shot (albeit a little slow with a heart shot!!!) It was purely the transfer of energy. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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No that is inaccurate. Bell killed many elephants with the 275 Rigby (aka 7x57) but he didn't even try to stop them with it, he had a big bore for that. I will see if I can find his description of his set up when he was shooting with the Rigby and what his big bore back up was. He wasn't shooting in the thick stuff either, he used the Rigby in more open terrain. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Someone asked me to test IMR 3031, don't remember who. I am not a IMR3031 fan either. I am a fan of IMR 8208, in the last 3 years of using it I have found no inconsistency from one can or lot# to the next. Which is very rare these days. V-N530 was very good as well, I am actively looking for some of that as it did extremely well in 500 MDM and 500 B&M. RL 7, H-4198, IMR 4198 all should be used with lighter bullets, 250-400 grs, and not for heavier bullets. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Very good information. Also very interesting about the IMR 3031, I know it is temperature sensitive but it also gives some very good results doing 'what ifs' in QL with the 50 B&M up through the 12.7x68 Magnum. It gives a 100% burn rate in a very wide velocity/pressure range. As the wife seems insistent on keeping me in Kali during the winter months I figured 3031 would work well in the winter Kali daytime temperatures (mid-60s through mid-70s) for practice loads.  Save the more expensive powders and bullets for hunting...Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Maybe Benchmark would be the answer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Hey Lane, Right now I have a small stock of H322, IMR3031, VV130, and VV133 in the powder box. I'll have to pick up some Benchmark and give it a try. Also I'm following Michael's current powder blend work with his 500 MDM it's a very good benchmark on powders for my 12.7x68 Magnum; we use the identical bullets in both. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I have tried and like H 335 for the 458wm, but prefer AA 2230. Nothing wrong with H 335 though. I saw incredible 100 to even 200+fps variation in IMR 3031 across different temps. What was a 2050fps load in 90* weather was an 1800-1900fps load when the temps were in the 30's. I have hunted elephants in 115* when the sun makes metal all but untouchable. Hate to think how hot the rounds in the chambers get in those conditions. (On that subject, I have read the advice from several of the past great ele hunters to periodically switch out your loaded ammo for ammo kept relatively cooler in a carrier or belt.) JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Jim I ran a 60% RL15 + 40% RL 7 blend today in 500MDM, 100/Blend excellent results, running 450#13 NonCon 2518 fps 60097 PSI....Excellent curves and traces 1029 ES over 5 rounds. Big difference in formed brass, and fire formed brass in pressure curves and ES however. Formed brass gave 4562 ES same velocity 2521 fps....unstable pressures forming brass into the chamber is all.... Benchmark is good as well, same bullet 2492 fps at 62000 PSI..... V-N530 same story 2543 fps at 62007 PSI... All good.... Except now I used the entire lot of V-N530 testing with the 500 B&M.... I can easy take the RL15/RL7 blend to match the V-N530 load however..... 60%/40% is great. Thinking of dropping off 5% of each, and adding 10% of H-4198 to the mix, this would speed the burn up just a tad, and drop the charge to around 98 grains. At 100 it is nice and compressed as well, damn near perfect. I ran one round at the bottom of the magazine, no crimp, for 4 rounds fired on top of it, never moved at all......... Probably leave that blend alone just as is actually......... So boys, if you can't find your favorite powder out there, and it is hard to come by these days, just take a few different ones of what you have, throw it in a jug, shake it up good, and make your own........  M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Very interesting stuff Michael. Thanks! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I do not believe that you have read McPherson's book. The pendulum definitely measures momentum, not energy. The height of the arc gives the momentum transferred. The pendulum was used to determine velocity after the momentum was measured but only after the velocity was determined by the amount of momentum transferred could the kinetic energy be calculated. Kinetic energy is always calculated not measured it is simply stated "mass in motion". McPherson spends a chapter on why energy is not a factor in calculating the wound channel. A 55 grain bullet such as fired from a .22-250 at 3600 FPS has 1,583 FPE. A 360 grain bullet at 1400 FPS such as fired from a .45 caliber revolver has 1,567 FPE slightly less than the 55 grain .22 caliber bullet. Shoot them into the ballistics pendulum and the greater momentum of the 360 grain bullet has a higher arc of than does the 55 grain bullet despite the fact of the higher energy of the 55 grain bullet the pendulum has a lower arc swing because of less momentum. If you ever use one it becomes crystal clear. Momentum is transferred and measurable, kinetic energy is not measurable. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You said the pendulum measured kinetic energy, McPherson say's the tissue damage is caused from frontal area of the bullet, the amount of direct applied pressure, amount of hydraulic pressure, amount of momentum transferred. I'll go with that. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Quote: Shooters will find IMR 8208 XBR totally insensitive to changes in temperature , while yielding max velocities and “tack driving” accuracy. Clearly, the competitor’s “choice” and the Varmint Hunter’s “dream powder”. (end quote) Wow! I better stock up on IMR-8208 XBR, as it has a lot of uses. Thanks for the pointer. I have been ignoring all the IMR's because of their large temperature sensitivity compared to Hodgdon Extreme stuff. No more. Great new powders: IMR-8208 XBR RL-17 | |||
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