I was wondering what powders anyone on here has had the best luck with to load the 458 to 2100 fps with traditional 500 grain bullets. I'm using 2230 at the moment and I really like it but thought there might be another option but no one I know even plays with the bigger bores and you all seem like a knowledgeable bunch.

Also, anyone have a set of complete 375 HH dies they want to part with cheaply? I need a set for my future wife's new m70. She's burned through the factory stuff I had in one go and wants more. I'm slowing her down with my 458 reloads but they are gonna go quick.

Thank you all in advance for the help

Why do you want a non compressed load. Nothing wrong with a 100% or more load density IME

Sir,

Michael458 has proven with MUCH RESEARCH that
we can fire modern design bullets from: CEB, North
Fork, and G S Custom, into the skulls of elephants
with plenty of penetration, at sectional density of
.280. That's a .458" diameter bullet of just 410
grains. Why bother with the 500 grainer and have
it consume so much of your valuable case capacity?

Well, you are both right of course. I was just thinking that there Wes a way that I might not have to shoehorn the powder in and still have a 500 grain with a bit of room... Tad less pressure. Yeah , I know, the Lott but I'm more than happy with the win mag to be honest. I like the underdog and it works.
Besides, the 500 grain round nose soft/solid looks the way it should to me. Nostalgic I guess. I know there are better bullet designs but there is nothing on this continent that would really know the difference if I tagged it. Africa perhaps, but not here. Even the baddest grizzly.

I have had good luck with RL7. My recollection, which should be confirmed by reference to a proper manual, is that I was using 66 grains of RL7 with F215M primers and getting right at 2100-2150 fps with no significant compression. I think H335 is another powder to try if you want to avoid compression.

Thanks mike. I'll look into those.

Also using Reloder 7 with Hornady 500gr bullets in my Remington 798 458 WM, with 62.0 gr I get 2000 fps MV (23" barrel).

I tested 66/RL 7 with a 450#13 Solid and was getting 62000 PSI, 450 North Fork FPS with 65/RL 7 and getting 61000 PSI.... Weight equals pressure....... so what is 66/RL 7 doing with a 500? Add on top of that typically more bearing surface on common 500 gr bullets, and you can add to pressures again.

Of course, my RL 7 is not your RL 7, but I have not found too many discrepancies in various lots of RL 7. I would guess that pressures are running a tad high with that load. No, you probably won't see it in the rifle or brass.........

Just because its compressed does not mean pressure..... Depends on the powder of course. The direction you are trying to go with RL 7 and similar powders, say IMR 4198, or H-4198, pressures build much faster, with heavier bullets. Compressed load are actually a good thing, you get better burns, more efficient, and better consistency at proper burn rates. One great thing about compressed loads, in a bolt gun, if you are compressed, that 3rd round down in the magazine is far less likely to get seated deeper after the top two rounds are fired. There is a pretty good chance that 66/RL7 with a 500 is running higher pressures, now without one hell of a good crimp on that, this load gets seated deeper, then you might run into some issues.

Michael

AA-2230 is the best in .458 WM why change? The only other really good choice is IMR-8208 which is easier to find right now.

Try H335

Load density or compaction is a problem with the .458 and any amount of explanation will not change that..

Specifically RL- 7 with a max load of 61 grs. for 2037 in a 24 inch barrel has a load density of 90% and thus its the best powder to use it seems but velocity isn't up there where claimed by some..Is 2037 FPS sufficient for elepant and buffalo? Id say it is sufficient, but not outstanding..

H335 with a max load of H335 is 74.5 grs for 2116 FPS has a load density of 110% and thats compacted plenty IMO..

RL-15 with 73 grs. for 2102 FPS looks pretty good at a load density of 107% but its still a compacted load..It might be my choice and 2100 is capable of killing anything, perhaps my old load of IMR-4895 with 72 grs. for 2099 FPS and 106% load density is as good as any..I never used it on elephant but it killed buffalo very well indeed.

My solution has been and will always be to punch that chamber out a mere 30 thousands, Jack Belk sez you can so that with a fingernail file, and call it a 458 Lott.

Load the Lott down to 2200 to 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without any compaction and you've got a DG rifle deluxe..It only makes good since to me. Problem solved.

I don't see using short light bullets of any construction as a solution to shooting elephants, buffalo or hippo. I like those long 500 gr. super Premium bullets both solids and softs... but to each his own, just speaking for myself.

Ray, maybe three-hundred thousandths will make the Lott round chamber a bit easier...

Me, I have a 45o Ultra Magnum in process with the Master. One James Kobe to be exact.

Rich

quote:

Load density or compaction is a problem with the .458 and any amount of explanation will not change that..

Not correct..... There are zero issues with compressed loads in 458 Winchester, or any other big bore for that matter. None at all.

quote:

I don't see using short light bullets of any construction as a solution to shooting elephants, buffalo or hippo. I like those long 500 gr. super Premium bullets both solids and softs... but to each his own, just speaking for myself.

Again, very wrong, and dated opinion. 458 Winchester does not come up short in any way whatsoever when using properly designed lighter than 500 gr bullets. A 500 gr bullet is not desirable in 458 Winchester, a new 450 gr #13 Solid or 450 North Fork will out penetrate any conventional 500 gr solid on the market, providing more than enough penetration for elephant, hippo, or buffalo. With my 18 inch 458 B&M this past July I shot completely through broadside elephant bull with a 450 #13 Solid at 2220 fps, bullet is still going around in Zimbabwe I reckon. Same bullet from front right shoulder on very big bull hippo, all the way to the far left hip, hitting and busting bone along the way. These bullets can be run safely and effectively in standard 458 Winchester to 2250-2300 fps in 24 inch barrel and be well under pressures with several different powders. 500 grains is not needed any more to provide superior penetration on any of the heavies.........

Michael

The undeserved legacy of the 458 WM goes on and on!!

Several years ago Hornady published 75 gr of Varget and 500 gr. solids gave 2150 fps. I don't remember any of them being particularly compressed. Who cares if they are, unless the bullet pops out?

Didn't rifles gave some different velocities but they were generally in the low 2100's.

So Varget, RL-15, A2230 should give the desired result, which is:

2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

All the other tweaking is:

who cares?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Load density or compaction is a problem with the .458 and any amount of explanation will not change that..

Specifically RL- 7 with a max load of 61 grs. for 2037 in a 24 inch barrel has a load density of 90% and thus its the best powder to use it seems but velocity isn't up there where claimed by some..Is 2037 FPS sufficient for elepant and buffalo? Id say it is sufficient, but not outstanding..

H335 with a max load of H335 is 74.5 grs for 2116 FPS has a load density of 110% and thats compacted plenty IMO..

RL-15 with 73 grs. for 2102 FPS looks pretty good at a load density of 107% but its still a compacted load..It might be my choice and 2100 is capable of killing anything, perhaps my old load of IMR-4895 with 72 grs. for 2099 FPS and 106% load density is as good as any..I never used it on elephant but it killed buffalo very well indeed.

My solution has been and will always be to punch that chamber out a mere 30 thousands, Jack Belk sez you can so that with a fingernail file, and call it a 458 Lott.

Load the Lott down to 2200 to 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without any compaction and you've got a DG rifle deluxe..It only makes good since to me. Problem solved.

I don't see using short light bullets of any construction as a solution to shooting elephants, buffalo or hippo. I like those long 500 gr. super Premium bullets both solids and softs... but to each his own, just speaking for myself.

To claim that a compressed load is a problem is to show a total lack of knowledge on the subject. No other way to slice it.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Load density or compaction is a problem with the .458 and any amount of explanation will not change that..

Specifically RL- 7 with a max load of 61 grs. for 2037 in a 24 inch barrel has a load density of 90% and thus its the best powder to use it seems but velocity isn't up there where claimed by some..Is 2037 FPS sufficient for elepant and buffalo? Id say it is sufficient, but not outstanding..

H335 with a max load of H335 is 74.5 grs for 2116 FPS has a load density of 110% and thats compacted plenty IMO..

RL-15 with 73 grs. for 2102 FPS looks pretty good at a load density of 107% but its still a compacted load..It might be my choice and 2100 is capable of killing anything, perhaps my old load of IMR-4895 with 72 grs. for 2099 FPS and 106% load density is as good as any..I never used it on elephant but it killed buffalo very well indeed.

My solution has been and will always be to punch that chamber out a mere 30 thousands, Jack Belk sez you can so that with a fingernail file, and call it a 458 Lott.

Load the Lott down to 2200 to 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without any compaction and you've got a DG rifle deluxe..It only makes good since to me. Problem solved.

I don't see using short light bullets of any construction as a solution to shooting elephants, buffalo or hippo. I like those long 500 gr. super Premium bullets both solids and softs... but to each his own, just speaking for myself.

To claim that a compressed load is a problem is to show a total lack of knowledge on the subject. No other way to slice it.

+1

That and the insistence on a 500gr projectile when it's been proven the new nose profiled 450s will easily out penetrate the old 500 round noses every time. But then again, Ray's made quite a few claims that don't seem to hold up to the scrutiny of light.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The undeserved legacy of the 458 WM goes on and on!!

Several years ago Hornady published 75 gr of Varget and 500 gr. solids gave 2150 fps. I don't remember any of them being particularly compressed. Who cares if they are, unless the bullet pops out?

Didn't rifles gave some different velocities but they were generally in the low 2100's.

So Varget, RL-15, A2230 should give the desired result, which is:

2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

All the other tweaking is:

who cares?

The rating of lethality with FPE is BS junk science theory at best. FPE can only be calculated not measured. To claim other wise is pure ignorance

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Load density or compaction is a problem with the .458 and any amount of explanation will not change that..

Specifically RL- 7 with a max load of 61 grs. for 2037 in a 24 inch barrel has a load density of 90% and thus its the best powder to use it seems but velocity isn't up there where claimed by some..Is 2037 FPS sufficient for elepant and buffalo? Id say it is sufficient, but not outstanding..

H335 with a max load of H335 is 74.5 grs for 2116 FPS has a load density of 110% and thats compacted plenty IMO..

RL-15 with 73 grs. for 2102 FPS looks pretty good at a load density of 107% but its still a compacted load..It might be my choice and 2100 is capable of killing anything, perhaps my old load of IMR-4895 with 72 grs. for 2099 FPS and 106% load density is as good as any..I never used it on elephant but it killed buffalo very well indeed.

My solution has been and will always be to punch that chamber out a mere 30 thousands, Jack Belk sez you can so that with a fingernail file, and call it a 458 Lott.

Load the Lott down to 2200 to 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without any compaction and you've got a DG rifle deluxe..It only makes good since to me. Problem solved.

I don't see using short light bullets of any construction as a solution to shooting elephants, buffalo or hippo. I like those long 500 gr. super Premium bullets both solids and softs... but to each his own, just speaking for myself.

To claim that a compressed load is a problem is to show a total lack of knowledge on the subject. No other way to slice it.

+1

That and the insistence on a 500gr projectile when it's been proven the new nose profiled 450s will easily out penetrate the old 500 round noses every time. But then again, Ray's made quite a few claims that don't seem to hold up to the scrutiny of light.

I' been shooting compressed loads for over 40 years without drama in fact they are the most consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The undeserved legacy of the 458 WM goes on and on!!

Several years ago Hornady published 75 gr of Varget and 500 gr. solids gave 2150 fps. I don't remember any of them being particularly compressed. Who cares if they are, unless the bullet pops out?

Didn't rifles gave some different velocities but they were generally in the low 2100's.

So Varget, RL-15, A2230 should give the desired result, which is:

2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

All the other tweaking is:

who cares?

The rating of lethality with FPE is BS junk science theory at best. FPE can only be calculated not measured. To claim other wise is pure ignorance

Tell me about all your elephants!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The undeserved legacy of the 458 WM goes on and on!!

Several years ago Hornady published 75 gr of Varget and 500 gr. solids gave 2150 fps. I don't remember any of them being particularly compressed. Who cares if they are, unless the bullet pops out?

Didn't rifles gave some different velocities but they were generally in the low 2100's.

So Varget, RL-15, A2230 should give the desired result, which is:

2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

All the other tweaking is:

who cares?

The rating of lethality with FPE is BS junk science theory at best. FPE can only be calculated not measured. To claim other wise is pure ignorance

Tell me about all your elephants!

The laws of physics do not change with the game not even on elephants.

Tell me about your understanding of the science. Not very much judging by your posts.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

why, are pachyderms able to calculate muzzle energy? 500 gr, 2150 fps, and 5000 ft-lbs seems so random. i would think that a bullet capable of deep, straightline penetration would be the ticket and not some arbitrary and calculated figure

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The undeserved legacy of the 458 WM goes on and on!!

Several years ago Hornady published 75 gr of Varget and 500 gr. solids gave 2150 fps. I don't remember any of them being particularly compressed. Who cares if they are, unless the bullet pops out?

Didn't rifles gave some different velocities but they were generally in the low 2100's.

So Varget, RL-15, A2230 should give the desired result, which is:

2150 ft/s with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbf of energy which is:

what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

All the other tweaking is:

who cares?

Tell me Will, can I safely hunt elephants with my 338 Lapua shooting the 300 SMK at 2800 FPS? I assume that I can since that is 5222 FPE?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Tell me about all your elephants!

Well here you have it. When these type of people can't understand a concept, nor explain something properly, they always resort to
their great accomplishments in life. Not the first time I have seen this from this sort, right here, there are a couple of more that
have done exactly the same thing, exactly the same words......

Somehow because you have killed an elephant or two, or a 100 for that matter, this now makes you an expert on everything ballistic, every
bullet, every rifle and cartridge???????

Hell, I have heard of poachers that have killed elephants with AK 47s..... So I suppose we should start listening to those poachers as to what is best
or not the best.......... After all "They can tell you of THEIR ELEPHANTS" I wonder if the poachers have gone to the "5000" foot pound of muzzle energy class?

You know something, I despise a POS that resorts to "Tell Me about Your Elephants" in attempt to elevate themselves above others that have not killed elephants!
DESPISE, puts it mildly............... POS is extremely MILD as well....... After all, there could be children looking on.........

Certainly one might use one's experience to learn, to become educated, to study bullet behavior and animal reactions to taking said bullet, and if studied along
with other lab work study, then it is possible to learn from these experiences. But just to throw out "Tell me about your Elephants" phrase is not only petty,
its the last resort from a stupid ass that has never learned anything while in the field, and too much ego to be able to learn anything from others, regardless of
how many elephants they have killed, shot, or seen. Believe me, one does not have to kill elephants to know what it takes to do so!!!!!!!!!!!! I know two of the
finest bullet manufacturers in the business, making the absolute finest elephant bullets that have ever been to the field since the beginning of hunting elephant. These
bullets have been proven in the lab first, and now have been proven in the field, bullets from our two best manufacturers, and to the best of my knowledge neither have
killed elephants yet..... But still, they give us the very finest bullets ever devised for the job! So what the F**K is the point of that asinine statement "Tell me about
all your Elephants"

To equate muzzle energy with shooting elephants is yet again something read out of a book that was supposed to mean something.......... I have never seen, nor heard of
muzzle energy knocking an elephant over..... If it can't knock an elephant over, then what is the point?

Tell us Mr. "tell me about your elephants" man.... What are the 8 factors of Solid Penetration, that would relate to deep straight line penetration, that does indeed
effect what we do in the field, with said elephants? Do name them in order please........ In addition to that, exactly how many of your elephants whispered in your
ear about how effective muzzle energy was to them when they were shot? When you come up short of the magical 5000 foot pounds, did the elephant run away and laugh at you
say when you were only at 4000 ft #s? Just curious of course........ I particularly would be interested in your answer to the 338 Lapua 300 SMK bullet at 5222 ft #s....
Obviously it would qualify under that criteria......

Ya see, that "Tell me about your Elephant" remark, just don't get you there, and it most certainly earns you nothing here, in fact, just the opposite...... petty, small minded,
and asinine the way I see it, last resort from a stupid ass............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Tell me about all your elephants!

Well here you have it. When these type of people can't understand a concept, nor explain something properly, they always resort to
their great accomplishments in life. Not the first time I have seen this from this sort, right here, there are a couple of more that
have done exactly the same thing, exactly the same words......

Somehow because you have killed an elephant or two, or a 100 for that matter, this now makes you an expert on everything ballistic, every
bullet, every rifle and cartridge???????

Hell, I have heard of poachers that have killed elephants with AK 47s..... So I suppose we should start listening to those poachers as to what is best
or not the best.......... After all "They can tell you of THEIR ELEPHANTS" I wonder if the poachers have gone to the "5000" foot pound of muzzle energy class?

You know something, I despise a POS that resorts to "Tell Me about Your Elephants" in attempt to elevate themselves above others that have not killed elephants!
DESPISE, puts it mildly............... POS is extremely MILD as well....... After all, there could be children looking on.........

Certainly one might use one's experience to learn, to become educated, to study bullet behavior and animal reactions to taking said bullet, and if studied along
with other lab work study, then it is possible to learn from these experiences. But just to throw out "Tell me about your Elephants" phrase is not only petty,
its the last resort from a stupid ass that has never learned anything while in the field, and too much ego to be able to learn anything from others, regardless of
how many elephants they have killed, shot, or seen. Believe me, one does not have to kill elephants to know what it takes to do so!!!!!!!!!!!! I know two of the
finest bullet manufacturers in the business, making the absolute finest elephant bullets that have ever been to the field since the beginning of hunting elephant. These
bullets have been proven in the lab first, and now have been proven in the field, bullets from our two best manufacturers, and to the best of my knowledge neither have
killed elephants yet..... But still, they give us the very finest bullets ever devised for the job! So what the F**K is the point of that asinine statement "Tell me about
all your Elephants"

To equate muzzle energy with shooting elephants is yet again something read out of a book that was supposed to mean something.......... I have never seen, nor heard of
muzzle energy knocking an elephant over..... If it can't knock an elephant over, then what is the point?

Tell us Mr. "tell me about your elephants" man.... What are the 8 factors of Solid Penetration, that would relate to deep straight line penetration, that does indeed
effect what we do in the field, with said elephants? Do name them in order please........ In addition to that, exactly how many of your elephants whispered in your
ear about how effective muzzle energy was to them when they were shot? When you come up short of the magical 5000 foot pounds, did the elephant run away and laugh at you
say when you were only at 4000 ft #s? Just curious of course........ I particularly would be interested in your answer to the 338 Lapua 300 SMK bullet at 5222 ft #s....
Obviously it would qualify under that criteria......

Ya see, that "Tell me about your Elephant" remark, just don't get you there, and it most certainly earns you nothing here, in fact, just the opposite...... petty, small minded,
and asinine the way I see it, last resort from a stupid ass............

Michael

+1 .... Very well said... Just my opinion.. Just didnt have the vocabulary to do so..

There are two potential problems that can occur with compressed loads. The first is that if the loads are highly compressed and they are not crimped properly, bullets can be pushed out of the case. Potentially, tieing up the action at a critical moment. The second is that with some powders, the powder can clump with compressed loads over time causing ignition problems and that usually results in sub-desirable velocity. No one has determined as far as I know, which powders are most susceptible to clumping.

Neither of these problems are serious if due caution is taken in reloading. With compressed loads it will pay to be careful to use a hard enough crimp. It is also a good idea to take only freshly loaded ammo on your hunt. Recently, I fired several rounds loaded with AA 2230 from my 458 Win that were loaded four years ago. The velocity was up to snuff and pulling a couple of bullets showed no sign of clumping.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Tell me about all your elephants!

Well here you have it. When these type of people can't understand a concept, nor explain something properly, they always resort to
their great accomplishments in life. Not the first time I have seen this from this sort, right here, there are a couple of more that
have done exactly the same thing, exactly the same words......

Somehow because you have killed an elephant or two, or a 100 for that matter, this now makes you an expert on everything ballistic, every
bullet, every rifle and cartridge???????

Hell, I have heard of poachers that have killed elephants with AK 47s..... So I suppose we should start listening to those poachers as to what is best
or not the best.......... After all "They can tell you of THEIR ELEPHANTS" I wonder if the poachers have gone to the "5000" foot pound of muzzle energy class?

You know something, I despise a POS that resorts to "Tell Me about Your Elephants" in attempt to elevate themselves above others that have not killed elephants!
DESPISE, puts it mildly............... POS is extremely MILD as well....... After all, there could be children looking on.........

Certainly one might use one's experience to learn, to become educated, to study bullet behavior and animal reactions to taking said bullet, and if studied along
with other lab work study, then it is possible to learn from these experiences. But just to throw out "Tell me about your Elephants" phrase is not only petty,
its the last resort from a stupid ass that has never learned anything while in the field, and too much ego to be able to learn anything from others, regardless of
how many elephants they have killed, shot, or seen. Believe me, one does not have to kill elephants to know what it takes to do so!!!!!!!!!!!! I know two of the
finest bullet manufacturers in the business, making the absolute finest elephant bullets that have ever been to the field since the beginning of hunting elephant. These
bullets have been proven in the lab first, and now have been proven in the field, bullets from our two best manufacturers, and to the best of my knowledge neither have
killed elephants yet..... But still, they give us the very finest bullets ever devised for the job! So what the F**K is the point of that asinine statement "Tell me about
all your Elephants"

To equate muzzle energy with shooting elephants is yet again something read out of a book that was supposed to mean something.......... I have never seen, nor heard of
muzzle energy knocking an elephant over..... If it can't knock an elephant over, then what is the point?

Tell us Mr. "tell me about your elephants" man.... What are the 8 factors of Solid Penetration, that would relate to deep straight line penetration, that does indeed
effect what we do in the field, with said elephants? Do name them in order please........ In addition to that, exactly how many of your elephants whispered in your
ear about how effective muzzle energy was to them when they were shot? When you come up short of the magical 5000 foot pounds, did the elephant run away and laugh at you
say when you were only at 4000 ft #s? Just curious of course........ I particularly would be interested in your answer to the 338 Lapua 300 SMK bullet at 5222 ft #s....
Obviously it would qualify under that criteria......

Ya see, that "Tell me about your Elephant" remark, just don't get you there, and it most certainly earns you nothing here, in fact, just the opposite...... petty, small minded,
and asinine the way I see it, last resort from a stupid ass............

Michael

Dayuuumm! And I was just about to tell him about MY elephants!

By Will,

quote:

2150 fps with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbs of energy which is: what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

It seems that some of us have a bit of a reading comprehension problem. Will gave a formula for a stopping rifle that has been the standard since the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express came out in 1898. It included caliber, velocity and bullet weight and included the resulting muzzle energy figure for that load. He didn't say that you only had to have 5,000 flbs of energy to have a reliable stopping cartridge.

To bring up the 338 Lapua in this context is baffling to me. Is it a 458 caliber or does it use a bullet of at least 500 grains?

To say that energy has no place in stopping power is also baffling. Show me one caliber that can kill something without having some energy. Which bullet of the same caliber, weight and velocity will cause more tissue damage, a solid that exits the far side of the animal or a soft point that expands and stops under the skin on the far side? Why does the soft cause more damage? It is because its wider expansion meets more resistance and sheds more energy in the animal. Shedding of energy is necessary to cause tissue damage and that is a simple law of physics.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
By Will,

quote:

2150 fps with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbs of energy which is: what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

It seems that some of us have a bit of a reading comprehension problem. Will gave a formula for a stopping rifle that has been the standard since the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express came out in 1898. It included caliber, velocity and bullet weight and included the resulting muzzle energy figure for that load. He didn't say that you only had to have 5,000 flbs of energy to have a reliable stopping cartridge.

To bring up the 338 Lapua in this context is baffling to me. Is it a 458 caliber or does it use a bullet of at least 500 grains?

To say that energy has no place in stopping power is also baffling. Show me one caliber that can kill something without having some energy. Which bullet of the same caliber, weight and velocity will cause more tissue damage, a solid that exits the far side of the animal or a soft point that expands and stops under the skin on the far side? Why does the soft cause more damage? It is because its wider expansion meets more resistance and sheds more energy in the animal. Shedding of energy is necessary to cause tissue damage and that is a simple law of physics.

465H&H

quote:

Shedding of energy is necessary to cause tissue damage and that is a simple law of physics.

This quote is not a law of physics and is completely incorrect. A bullet strike is an "in elastic" collision, there is only a small amount of energy transfer that is totally untraceable. Most kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy mostly thermal. European's use "joules" a thermal measurement instead of FPE.
Momentum is transferred in all collisions as the diagram illustrates. The wound channel is created by the amount of momentum transferred, the frontal area of the bullet for the amount of crushed tissue and the amount of hydraulic pressure created. To claim other wise is to be ignorant of the facts. Simply using FPE to rate lethality is a simplistic approach to a complex event. Kinetic energy is simply put a calculation of mass in motion, to steel balls colliding is an elastic collision and there is a transfer of momentum, as well as a transfer of energy. The mass is still in motion. The elephant and the bullet is not, the tissue displaced is and it has a transfer of energy, but a small amount.


If you can not understand the ballistics pendulum, then you will not understand the energy relationship in an in elastic collision (bullet strike).

465H&H, is it the 500 grain bullet with 5000 FPE that stops the animal or is it the or is a bullet of proper construction and nose profile that penetrates straight to and through the vitals.. If it were the FPE then the ones the rivet and don't penetrate to and through the vitals would work perfectly. But they don't. FPE is an orbit rare number that some claimed was what was needed and did not understand the science.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
By Will,

quote:

2150 fps with a 500 gr. bullet which gives 5,000 ft-lbs of energy which is: what it takes to safely hunt elephants!

It seems that some of us have a bit of a reading comprehension problem. Will gave a formula for a stopping rifle that has been the standard since the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express came out in 1898. It included caliber, velocity and bullet weight and included the resulting muzzle energy figure for that load. He didn't say that you only had to have 5,000 flbs of energy to have a reliable stopping cartridge.

To bring up the 338 Lapua in this context is baffling to me. Is it a 458 caliber or does it use a bullet of at least 500 grains?

465H&H

The .450 NE was traditionally loaded with 480 gr bullets...not 500.

Why does everybody want a 500 gr bullet for there .458 WM.

It has been known for years that the .458 WM is at its best with 450 gr bullets. Today with the CEB's and NF FPS's a .458 WM is more than the .450 NE of 1898 ever even dreamed of being.

Shooting ele is a solids game and with solids...it is totally about penetration...the more the better. I will bet a .458 WM with a 450 gr CEB solid ahead of 72 gr of AA-2230 will out penetrate a 450 NE shooting a 480 gr round nose over cordite by 2-3 times.

And this was the load all others were measured by.

jwp,

As your drawing above states, energy (potential plus kinetic) is conserved as the block moves up. I take the meaning of that as, that is what causes the block to move. If the bullet had completely penetrated the block some of that energy would have been lost and the block would have moved a lesser distance.

If I remember my physics class lectures correctly, energy is defined as "the ability to do work". In the case under discussion the work is the bullets ability to penetrate and destroy tissue. Without the bullet having energy, there will be no tissue destruction. But I do agree that fpe used alone has little meaning and that is why I said energy and not just kinetic energy.

Obviously, the bullet has to be able to penetrate far enough and with enough energy to destroy the vital organs targeted.

Remember we are talking about stopping power not just killing ability. A 7x57 Mauser with 175 grain solids will penetrate far enough on a frontal or side brain shot to kill an elephant if it hits a vital portion of the brain. But it will have little stopping power unless it does destroy a vital part of the brain. A bullet as described by Will has been accepted by generations of experienced elephant hunters as being necessary to stop or turn an elephant charge with any degree of certainty. Most PHs will agree with that accessment.

Ah Lane my friend,

You ask why the 500 over the 450 in the 458 Win.
It is simple the 500 has more stopping power on elephant head shots. As long as the bullet will exit the back of the head on a full frontal shot, it has all the penetration needed and the heavier bullet will hit with a greater amount of stunning ability. Also, I have proven quite conclusively that RN solids will penetrate as far and usually farther than FN solids on side, top down or angled head shots. I would bet my life on it and in fact have on numerous elephants. Now on full frontal head shots the FN will travel farther than some RN solids but not all. The 458 550 grain Woodleigh out of the Lott is one. That travel is usually through the neck and loin meat that provides little additional killing affect and adds even less in stopping power.

In a elephant charge situation the key is to persuade the elephant that it needs to stop the charge. If it is killed in the process, well and good but it must be stopped or turned for sure. A heavier bullet will always do that better than a lighter bullet going a little faster.

465H&H

.465,

You have certainly shot more ele than I. But I know people that have shot truckloads more than you. One all with a .458 WM. Art Alpin got him to switch to 450 years ago in his .458 culling rifle and he never switched back.

You are the only person I know who has shot any .458 450's in NF or CEB's that take your stance.

In you statement on hittin harder...it is my opinion that game reacts to the FPS much more dramatically than a RN solid...have no way of backing it up scientifically...just my impression.

I have put boocoo's of .458 solids through dead cow carcasses. I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a 450 gr FPS going 2250 will shoot stem to stern through a freshly dead cow carcass...where I have never gotten a 500 grain DGS going 2150 to exit.

Of course you have to have energy or you would have no mass in motion. FPE is kinetic energy which is unmeasurable as and is only calculated the tissue damage is not from energy transfer as is too often stated. The damage of a bullet strike is multiple parts of science and physics happen very rapidly and is not just energy. The momentum transfer, the frontal area, the hydraulic pressure, etc. You are correct is it not simply energy.

You speak of stopping power, well exactly what is it and how do you get it? The 7X57 with a proper solid that penetrate to and through the vitals as in into the brain will have instant stopping power the same as will the 458 bullet into the brain. I have read on this web site of JPK's double putting both barrels into the head of an elephants that did not go down and was not found and this was with a 458 with 5000 FPE in each barrel. So exactly what is this stopping rifle exactly?

I suggest this book




Book Description

Publication Date: 2005
Bullet Penetration describes the analysis and testing of a model of bullet penetration dynamics; this model is a significant technical advance over what has been heretofore available. This penetration model is directly related to understanding the production of an incapacitating wound by the bullet parameters (velocity, weight, shape, diameter). Incapacitation from wound trauma is a complex subject that has been controversial for many decades, and all aspects of this subject are discussed in detail in Bullet Penetration. The new results in this book are described in a style and vocabulary that make the basic principles and results understandable to the layman. This outstanding book should be read by everyone who is critically dependent on handgun bullet performance as well as all those with an interest in any aspect of wound ballistics. The topics covered in Bullet Penetration include physiological and psychological effects in incapacitation from wound trauma, modeling of bullet penetration, and modeling of bullet expansion. The realities associated with the desired "one shot stop" and the ignorance and/or fraud in "combat data" claims are discussed in detail. The primary focus is on handgun ammunition, but the principles and many of the results are also applicable to rifle ammunition. The book has 307 pages, including 69 pages of bullet photographs and graphs of test results.

-–----------------------


There is a whole chapter on energy relationships.

I would suggest the more traditional .450 Bullet, the 480grn 458Win produced by Woodleigh. 2150fps no problem

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


The wound and the capacity for a projectile/missile is all about energy and nothing else ! It is simple The bullet as we know it is a passive kinetic energy penetrator !

Claiming otherwise is outright denial of the physics of wounding and injury. Momentum is equivalent to energy, mass on its own is equivalent to energy even if it is not in motion!

If it is all about energy then the 300 grain SMK from a 338 Lapua at 2800 with 5222 FPE is above the 5000 FPE thresh hold so should the same, right? Wrong more to it than proclaiming an energy number.



1) As a unit or work, it is defined as the work done by a force of one newton acting on an object to move it through a distance of one meter in the direction the force is applied. One joule per second equals 1 watt or 0.737 foot pounds, or 9.47 x 10^-4 British thermal units (Btu) (one Btu equals about 1,055 joules). (2) As a unit of energy, it is defined as the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree Celsius. Or the energy expended in one second by one ampere current against a resistance of one ohm. In terms of kinetic energy, one joule is equal to the energy of a mass of two kilograms moving at a velocity of one meter per second. It equals about 0.24 calories, or roughly the energy required to raise a spoonful of food to mouth. Named after UK physicist James Prescott Joule (1818-89) who in 1843 discovered the mechanical equivalent of heat.



Metric (SI) unit of work and energy. (1) As a unit or work, it is defined as the work done by a force of one newton acting on an object to move it through a distance of one meter in the direction the force is applied. One joule per second equals 1 watt or 0.737 foot pounds, or 9.47 x 10^-4 British thermal units (Btu) (one Btu equals about 1,055 joules). (2) As a unit of energy, it is defined as the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree Celsius. Or the energy expended in one second by one ampere current against a resistance of one ohm. In terms of kinetic energy, one joule is equal to the energy of a mass of two kilograms moving at a velocity of one meter per second. It equals about 0.24 calories, or roughly the energy required to raise a spoonful of food to mouth. Named after UK physicist James Prescott Joule (1818-89) who in 1843 discovered the mechanical equivalent of heat.

HEH....... This thread has went from a very simply question presented by Sean1975 about loads and powders that are not compressed in 458 Winchester, to all sorts of other levels..... some relevant, some not..... some way off course.......

As to compression.......

quote:

There are two potential problems that can occur with compressed loads. The first is that if the loads are highly compressed and they are not crimped properly, bullets can be pushed out of the case. Potentially, tieing up the action at a critical moment. The second is that with some powders, the powder can clump with compressed loads over time causing ignition problems and that usually results in sub-desirable velocity. No one has determined as far as I know, which powders are most susceptible to clumping.

Neither of these problems are serious if due caution is taken in reloading. With compressed loads it will pay to be careful to use a hard enough crimp. It is also a good idea to take only freshly loaded ammo on your hunt. Recently, I fired several rounds loaded with AA 2230 from my 458 Win that were loaded four years ago. The velocity was up to snuff and pulling a couple of bullets showed no sign of clumping.

465H&H

I concur that there can always be "Potential" for most anything. As to highly compressed, bullets pushed out of the case, or being pulled out of the case from recoil.... This can happen with a double rifle after one round fired, but it can also happen from just no crimp at all, or light crimp and light neck tension from a size die that is not sizing the case down enough... Which I have recently seen on some 500 Nitro dies of late, not sizing brass down enough.. has nothing to do with compressed loads, so there is potential for all sorts of things one might run into when loading. 458 Winchester "Primarily" being a bolt gun cartridge, compressed loads assist with keeping that bottom round in the magazine bullet from being pushed in deeper, a pro, not a con. I have never seen a bullet pushed out while in the magazine of a bolt gun locking up the action? I suppose it would be possible if bullet pushed out somehow and one tried to chamber and lock the bolt up, but have never seen that, again, back to potential and possibilities, not common, but there are many other things that can happen just the same.....

Clumping might have been some issue back when the 458 Winchester was first loaded in the late 50s early 60s maybe... This has been mentioned as a cause of lower velocities and erratic ignition and burns..... I have also seen recently where some of the Factory ammo guys came out and stated that when the 458 Win was first being loaded that they had some mechanical issues and all the powder was not put in the case that was called for.

?????

I have been shooting big bore compressed loads for near 20 yrs now, I have never seen clumping, or it has never shown up in 10s of thousands of heavy compressed loads fired, tested, pressure tested here, with many types of powders used in anything from 416+...... I have fired and tested loads that have been loaded and very heavy compressed for 10-12 years, and I have not seen it yet. Potential however is there for most anything I reckon........

I am not sure where all this concern over compressed loads comes from? I hear it quite a bit... It is common knowledge, or should be anyway, that we get more consistent burns, ignitions, pressures, and velocity as our cases reach upper end capacity. Obviously one must choose the correct powders, you don't use Bullseye in a 500 Nitro, nor RL 15 in a 45 ACP. This is one reason in the big nitro cases of old, if you don't fill the case (which I think is always best to fill the case with powder, not fillers, as our tests have proven) then you have to use a filler of some sort to get proper ignition and burns!!!!!!! As proven over hundreds of pressure tests that Sam and I have done here, every single time we fill the nitro cases with powder, get some compression, our loads are more consistent, consistent pressures, ignition, velocities the works, all good, no bad....... It is the same in smaller high pressure big bores as well, as that case reaches capacity with proper powder and bullet combinations, everything becomes more consistent, above all, pressures become more consistent and is one of the major things we look at here, especially when working at the upper levels of pressures in any given cartridge, or rifle........ Inconsistency of pressures can cause far far more real life issues than some possible potential of clumping or some sort of other thought up scenario.........

One major point that I will agree with 465HH to the extreme, always go on a major hunt or expedition with FRESH and NEW AMMO.... Regardless compressed or not compressed or any other factor........ Also keep in mind, all powder, same brand, name, Lot# is not created equal.... Your powder tested 2 years ago, may very well NOT BE the same as the new can of powder you just bought!!!!!!

quote:

To say that energy has no place in stopping power is also baffling. Show me one caliber that can kill something without having some energy. Which bullet of the same caliber, weight and velocity will cause more tissue damage, a solid that exits the far side of the animal or a soft point that expands and stops under the skin on the far side? Why does the soft cause more damage? It is because its wider expansion meets more resistance and sheds more energy in the animal. Shedding of energy is necessary to cause tissue damage and that is a simple law of physics.

I love this one H.... OK... For arguments sake, we have Two 500 gr Bullets... One Soft, or trauma inflicting bullet, and one Solid bullet. Both driving 2150 fps, the magic number. You state rather clear, the Soft point, or trauma inflicting bullet does more damage than the solid that just penetrates completely through and exits the animal... But I have to ask you this...... Both Bullets have the exact same MUZZLE ENERGY, and if this NUMBER is so important, then how come one bullet can do more tissue damage than the other? Both being dead equal in muzzle energy?

I dare say, that the reason the soft does more damage has far more to do with the design of the bullet, than "muzzle energy"... One bullet designed to inflict trauma, the other designed to penetrate.

Now what might be of issue is "energy transfer" or "Trauma Inflicted" Of course, there is a release of energy caused by a bullet penetrating flesh, but how is that related to muzzle energy exactly, how is that measured in transfer of energy to tissue? And of what real import is it? The release of energy cannot actually be measured in animal tissue, other than the amount of destroyed tissue measured, but then again, we can destroy tissue in many other measures of bullet design alone, which is related to energy release, or transfer of course, but is a consequence of design....... Lets say we have a soft point that destroys a said amount of tissue in 20 inches of total penetration, cubic inches of destroyed tissue or wound channel perhaps. Now, we have a solid that can absolutely destroy a wound channel that is 65-80 inches of total penetration, how many cubic inches in that amount of penetration? I dare say, we are getting closer to equal amounts of tissue being destroyed if not exceeding much of what a conventional soft can destroy? Of course, vitals must be destroyed to have any effect in the short term and the more vitals destroyed then the faster our action will bear fruit. If someone cans show me that if one starts with 5000 foot #s of muzzle energy, and how that will relate to anything in real life, then I will be glad to listen, show me the amount of this transferred to the target, independent of bullet design.

I am asked all the time, how much energy does any given B&M cartridge produce? I always have the same answer for them, "I don't have a clue, never considered muzzle energy a factor, bullets do all the work, not muzzle energy." Bullets destroy tissue by design, some more, some less, depending on the mission at hand, yes, one can say there is a release of energy to do this, but I think muzzle energy has zip to do with anything. I hear this 5000 #s needed for elephant, I hear 1500#s needed for deer, or 2000#s needed for elk and so forth.... Maybe I am dense, maybe I don't get it, obviously I don't, I just have never seen Muzzle Energy as a factor in tissue destruction, even though we realize that there has to be "energy transfer" at work of course.... But to state that an animal requires a certain amount of "Muzzle Energy", come on now, that is ridiculous to me!

quote:

You ask why the 500 over the 450 in the 458 Win.
It is simple the 500 has more stopping power on elephant head shots. As long as the bullet will exit the back of the head on a full frontal shot, it has all the penetration needed and the heavier bullet will hit with a greater amount of stunning ability. Also, I have proven quite conclusively that RN solids will penetrate as far and usually farther than FN solids on side, top down or angled head shots. I would bet my life on it and in fact have on numerous elephants. Now on full frontal head shots the FN will travel farther than some RN solids but not all. The 458 550 grain Woodleigh out of the Lott is one. That travel is usually through the neck and loin meat that provides little additional killing affect and adds even less in stopping power.

In a elephant charge situation the key is to persuade the elephant that it needs to stop the charge. If it is killed in the process, well and good but it must be stopped or turned for sure. A heavier bullet will always do that better than a lighter bullet going a little faster.

H... I don't buy this BS... I know you have shot 25 + elephants and to your satisfaction and in your mind set there is nothing that will ever convince you that a 500 gr or 550 gr Woodleigh is not the best bullet ever designed. I won't even attempt that, as you and I have been around this subject for 5+ years now. I can show, put up evidence, have witnesses, shooters, elephant hunters, buffalo hunters, that have had many sorts of Round Nose bullets, including woodleighs that have turned, veered, and have not killed elephants, or even knocked them over or down, or shown any reaction at all to being hit, but all that is moot and does not exist in your mind only. You in turn, will never be able to convince me that a big flat nose bullet does not "TRANSFER MORE ENERGY", inflict MORE TRAUMA to a target, including elephant heads, elephant bodies, buffalo bodies, hippo bodies than a round nose solid........ It is NOT POSSIBLE that a round nose solid can inflict more stopping power, than a 65-70% meplat flat nose solid. I have shot a few things in my day as well, and have taken note of the massive increase of animal reactions to taking a round nose solid and a flat nose solid, the flat nose winning out by miles and miles......... Stopping Power? Round Nose? I can't tell you about all the times that I have heard of, seen on hunting shows, that elephant have just simply ran away from head shots with round nose solids. I do not and will never believe that a 500 round nose solid at 2150 fps transfers MORE energy or trauma to anything elephant heads, or bodies, than a flat nose 67%-68% meplat 450 gr Solid at 2250-2300 fps........... Animal reactions, I have witnessed BOTH, elephant, buffalo, and hippo, are far greater with the lighter bullet at higher velocity. Actual destroyed tissue is greater, entry and exits are greater and permanent, noted by far more than myself. Even after you started using a few Flat Nose solids, and it was difficult for you to admit they penetrated deeper, then the excuse was that they PENETRATE TOO MUCH...... So regardless of anything that can ever be presented to you, the old Whoolly RN will always be your bullet. Flat Noses hits harder up front, But The Wholly RN is better. Flat Nose penetrates deeper, But the Whoolly RN is better. The FN penetrates straighter, But the WHoolly RN is better. The FN does more damage, But the Whoolly RN is better, and we could go on until the end of time, nothing changes..........

The very reason I have been on such a mission to find a proper decent bullet is two fold! First, at one time, there were no proper bullets in my true .500 caliber rifles. I needed proper bullets to accomplish my missions and my agenda. I started testing these round nose solids, and what a horrible surprise I got. Then the mission for something that would penetrate deep, but reliably STRAIGHT, and here we are today. Everyone knows the rest of the story......... H... Keep your Whoolly RN bullets, and use them to the end of time, but don't think you can convince anyone they are better than our current lineup of proper designed solids on a Consistent 100% of the time basis..... Not going to happen buddy....... I am with Lane on this......... Of course, I am sure this will not be our last discussion on the issue....... HEH HEH.......

I am even reluctant to post this, actually have been writing for some time, back and forth between calls and such... Probably a waste of time...

Michael

A 458 500 grain round nose solid at2150 fps has more energy than a flat point CEB 450 solid at 2150 fps, yet the flat point will penetrate deeper and inflict more trauma. No energy numbers do not predict this.

By the McPherson's book spends a chapter explaining why energy will not predict results

Maybe you should retread my post. The speed was the same only the weight and shape of projectile change. Energy being greater with the heavier round nose. The effect difference has been well documented by Micheal458 both in testing and in the field