I am thinking of building a .400 Whelen (reamed to the "original" specs as described by MP) and was wonder what they are actually doing in the real world. I read all of the old posts here and saw some loads that were supposed to push a 400 grain bullet at something like 2100+ fps. That is every bit as good as the .400 Nitro, which is very good indeed. Can they really do this at sane pressures? Has anyone chronographed them doing this, and even better, sent some rounds off for pressure testing?

I would like to build a .400 on a 1903 action for and "American big ore." I am interested only in the Whelen and not the .411 Hawk, as it has a lot to do with history to me. Elmer Kieth, early American custom makers, etc. I first got interested in this back when I read MP's article in Precision Shooting several years ago.

Any stories on real world expereinces would be appreciated. Thanks!

I read someplace that Elmer was disappointed in the 400 Whelen ahd that lead to the 333 OKH.

If you really want a 400Whelen ... why are you worried about the 2100fps with a 400gr?? If you want it ... build it. If you only get 2000fps then so be it ... personally I think the 400gr in the 400Whelen shows a bit of the "heavier is better" mentality. I'd be loading 300gr and 350gr and hoping for 2300fps to 2400fps. At those velocities its smack bang in the original ballistics for the 10.75x68 (347gr at 2250fps)... but with better modern projectiles.
Cheers...
Con

Here's a couple loads for you.

300 JSP IMR-3031 60.0 2,265

350 JSP IMR-3031 57.0 2,100

Loadtech says you can get 2100 with a 400gr but you are pushing it. I have to agree with the others. To me a 300 or 350 makes more sense.

400 Whelen on a 03 like this one?

Mark,

I am shooting a 400 Whelen, but with a 40 degree (improved) shoulder.

I can get 2500 fps with 300 grain Hornady bullets, and 2350 for the 350 grain Swift A-frames.

I am only getting 2400 fps with the Barnes X 300 grain.

I would really advise that you use an improved case design, instead of the original, gentle (almost non-existant) shoulder.

Not because of headspace issues, but because the case is on the small side for the size of bullets you want to shoot. Here is a cartridge that you will want to use every trick in the book to squeeze energy out of.
The sharp shoulder and minimum case taper does make a difference when you are working around (and above) 60 kpsi.

Mike from North Fork Bullets turned me on to Accurate Arms 2230 powder for it.
At first I was having some pressure issues, but then discovered it was my brass (the neck was too thick, even after inside reaming).
I've got that conquered now, and it's doing everything claimed of it.

I have no idea why the cartridge isn't more popular. It's an easy one to work with.

Garrett

Marc,

Get a hold of Michael Petrov and pick his brain on the 400 Whelen. He has one and has posted about it in the past and I think may even have a line on a reamer that was designed with the new 400 Whelen headstamped brass that MidwayUSA has for sale.

"then discovered it was my brass (the neck was too thick, even after inside reaming)".

Ahaaaaa

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:
Mark,

I would really advise that you use an improved case design, instead of the original, gentle (almost non-existant) shoulder.
Garrett

Garrett, you need to read this abouth the original .400 Whelen. It WAS improoved, until someone started using only necked up '06 brass.

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Marc,

Get a hold of Michael Petrov and pick his brain on the 400 Whelen. He has one and has posted about it in the past and I think may even have a line on a reamer that was designed with the new 400 Whelen headstamped brass that MidwayUSA has for sale.

The .400 Whelen brass from Midway is basic, and I am pretty sure Mr.Petrov uses the original dimentions.


The .400 Whelen is a great cartridge the way it was made originally, as close to .411 Hawk as possible!

Bent,
I agree about the original Whelen being "improved" but anyone know for sure what shoulder angle it used? I'm sort of assuming that the difference between the "original Whelen, 411Hawk and 400Brown Whelen is shoulder angles??
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
Bent,
I agree about the original Whelen being "improved" but anyone know for sure what shoulder angle it used? I'm sort of assuming that the difference between the "original Whelen, 411Hawk and 400Brown Whelen is shoulder angles??
Cheers...
Con

No, don't know, but it would be appreciatet with an input from Zeglin on this matter.

quote:

No, don't know, but it would be appreciatet with an input from Zeglin on this matter

z-hat has several excellent articles and links on his site about the 400 and his 411. I know on the 375 and lower the shoulder if moved forward like that of a 9.3X62. Looking at the picture of the 411 it is hard to tell.

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

I believe the original 400 Whelen, from T. Whelen's April 1927 article (American Rifleman), was 17 degrees.

Garrett

Garrett,
Yep that's my understanding as well, "original" Whelen had the 30/06's original shoulder angle ... could this be why people assumed it had the same shoulder diameter ... hence the headspace issues?
Cheers...
Con

Con,

I suspect it could that problem.
But on the other hand, these were such custom items, with no standardization (and limited communication between makers), that most likely it's just that there were multiple dimensions (for the case, chamber and dies) out there.

If you've ever seen an original 400 Whelen case, it is hard to even see the shoulder, unless you hold it up and look at the cartridge in profile.

Garrett

Mark,

If you do buy the Quality Cartridge brass (headstamped 400 Whelen), just be aware that it is some of the thickest brass there is.

It will last a lifetime, but it is the only brass I have ever encountered that requires inside and out side case neck reaming.

Michael Petrov told me he had his chamber cut to accomodate the QC brass.

My chamber is perfect for 30-06 or 35 Whelen brass necked up (with no other modification after fireforming), but the QC brass requires a lot of work.

30-06 brass will be around as long as there are firearms.
Quality Cartridge might not last quite that long, although it would be nice if they did.

Garrett

Garrett,
You dont have a 400Whelen reamer by any chance do you?
Cheers...
Con

Con,

No, sorry.
Randy Selby cut the chamber and threaded the barrel for my rifle.

He has a website, but I don't have the link on this computer.

Garrett

Phew! ... one less temptation .
Cheers...
Con

I dug through one of the MM's (Magazine Mountians) last night until I ofund my Feb. '01 issue of Precision SHooting. Re-read the .400 article. I am definitely going to build one when I get around to the Springfield project. I have been wanting one ever since reading about Elmer Kieth liking his in "Hell, I was There." then about year later MP wrote the article in PS and I have really been thinking about it ever since. Thanks to everyone for your input!

Mark,
I really like your Idea, and would really like one myself. I would contact Mr.Petrov and get the correct shoulder angle on the original .458shouldered chamber, and get a reamer like that. Then buy a supply of the QC brass, correctly stamped brass might not be available again. Then get a die-set of the fiered cases.

Good luck!

How's bullet avaliablity in this caliber???
GS

Instead of a 400 Whelen, I would consider a .411 Hawk. More powder capacity, more shoulder, and can use Woodleigh softs.

http://www.z-hat.com/

Can you take the case up to .416?
What I'm getting at is what is the best caliber, in the 400s, for bullet avaliabilty that will work with the 30-06 case length?>
I've got a 30-06, and, if I'm going to make the 375 into a 458 lott, I could neck up the 30-06 I have.
Can you pull the bullets on 375 H&H ammo, and neck it up to 458 lott? I've got near 220 rounds of great hunting ammo in 375 H&H. Maybe a 375 Whelan?

GS

Fred Zeglin says .416 does not leave enough shoulder, but .411 works fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Mark,
I really like your Idea, and would really like one myself. I would contact Mr.Petrov and get the correct shoulder angle on the original .458shouldered chamber, and get a reamer like that. Then buy a supply of the QC brass, correctly stamped brass might not be available again. Then get a die-set of the fiered cases.

Good luck!

bent...have you made a 400 on your own version???