A friend with the NRA sent me this. I haven't seen it here before, but it may have been here and I may have missed it.

Comments?

http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

I think that is an excellent article and illustrates to all of us the necessity of checking you rifle very thoroughly before hunting, and getting it tuned by a top notch gunsmith as needed.

I'll grant you, there's some good practical experience in this article.

BUT
this is an amazingly opinionated read, full of contradictions and gems like
"aint rain wet" -- okay, he didn't say that, but he does start off with

quote:

Only training can render one competent to carry a rifle in the bush

DUH!...

let's start with his final jest, but clearly shows some of his "experience"

quote:

One last, fairly humorous incident occurred which simply confirms my case against Weatherby. An apprentice PH was using a rifle chambered for the .375 H&H. He had a whole pile of ammo given to him by a client, which was .375 H&H made by Weatherby. He also had a few rounds though that were also head stamped “Weatherby†and marked .375 but they were .375 Weatherby rather than Holland & Holland. I’ve never seen a rifle chambered for .375 Weatherby but the rounds sure didn’t fit into chamber of the said fellow’s rifle and caused an almighty jam

yes? does the gentleman have a POINT? wrong ammo, wrong gun... this is a USER error ..300 "weatherby" will not fit in a 300 WINCHESTER even if the ammo and rifle were made BY weatherby either...

here's a gem, from this article on blasting every rifle made "in" the US .. and now on to custom rifles

quote:

I retain an intrinsic mistrust of any “custom†rifle unless I’ve tried it thoroughly and I know who built it

take out custom and it applies to EVERY rifle built...


... and one that is totally at his bias and contradictions, along with unfounded "facts" .. and bashing of american gun makers starting with the weatherby and proceeding through to the markx .. .. NEWS FLASH... "japan" aint a city in the rust belt and "markX in an IMPORTER, but hasn't imported a rifle in the US for what, 10 years? ..

browning A bolts have NEVER been made, or even assembled in the usa,


further examples

quote:

Winchester M70 safety catch - awkward for a right-hander

..

quote:

Ruger M77 - fitted with the best option in safety catches - a shotgun-type tang safety.

BUT compared to ...

quote:

The standard by which others are judged. A standard Mauser - serviceable safety catch, claw extractor and decent sights

stipulation presented as FACT

quote:

Interarms Mk X. Apart from the fact that the barrels are soft and wear out very quickly,

and on english rifles (which also applies to the markX he just complained about)

quote:

but these days any rifle with an English makers name on it is taken as being a good quality rifle.

wait a minute... aint a whitworth or a parker-hale "mark x"s ? yes, they are

and this wonder

quote:

FN’s are seldom seen on the second hand market. They represent the peak in the Mauser rifles development, and those lucky enough to own one seldom find a reason good enough to sell it.

but never mentions that the safeties on the so-called "peak mausers" are left to the CUSTOM gun maker to place somewhere


and this guy can't figure out how to operate a winchester safety in the "heat" of battle

quote:

My biggest gripe about the Winchester is that the safety catch is on the WRONG side. On the right handed model, the safety catch is perfect for a left hander and visa versa on the left handed edition. Heavens to Hiawatha, surely somebody at US Repeating Arms (who make Winchester) has walked outside and tried to swing the rifle up for a snap shot from either the trail or from a sling!

Sure enough, the guy has experiences...

Frankly, he reads like the range guy at the Ph exam, that is also a gunwriter...

wanna bet he has that special 21" "yard" stick to measure his shots by?

cute read on the ammo ... it reads like he is surprised that ammo that is VISIBLEY failed won't have the same performance as "new" ..


jeffe

jeffe has nailed it.

Too much prejudice and surprise at the obvious for the opinions to be taken seriously.

Still, the factual reporting is excellent and points up some true drawbacks of the various designs used.

One thing I know of firsthand in that article is chambering your handloads before you leave the house. you try going to the range with 20 useless cartridges. Buy factory? HELL NO! not at $60 a box(and thats cheap compared to other big bores).

Another thing I noticed was he really didnt have much to say about the standard Mauser safety. I was hunting with a friend with an 8mm Yugo, and his safety kept switching to FIRE after going through the bushes on more than one occasion.

This article appeared in African Hunter SEVERAL years ago and I wrote a rather long response which was printed. The fact is he LIKES Mausers above all and the Mauser military safety. You realize of course with this safety if you put it in its most safe position locking the bolt it takes thumb and forefinger for me to move it to fire. If you leave it in the center position it doesn't lock the bolt and the bolt can open especially in heavy brush if carried over the shoulder and held by the barrel as is typical in the Africa that I have seen. He says the anti-bind lug bent on a new Mdl 70 rendering it unusable and he just tore it off. I really don't know what he is referring too as I thought the anti bind was the slot in the right lug that rides on the right rail. Someone enlighten me. The photo he shows for the model 70 safety on the wrong side is on the wrong side and works backward the only problem being that is a safety on a prewar Mdl 70 made prior to 1945. I will have to say I have seen some PH's with nice well maintained guns but I have seen more with ill maintained ones. Of course I have only hunted Zimbabwe and only for 8 years there. Just one mans opinion as is mine so take it for what it is worth and that is the value YOU give it.

I, the Remington 700 collector...have read the same article - at least TWICE - and I commend those of you that have picked it apart.

I noticed many of the same things mentioned, but hesitate to comment any further due to my LACK OF HUNTING EXPERIENCE and probability of never going to Africa...

Jeffeoso, the way you did a job on this is why I like your venture on the AR Series of cartridges --- You are a THINKER .

It's not a totally bad article, but some points just seem a tad biased or contradictory...

Between too much reading on the internet and posting in this Forum, I've come to the conclusion that I have only two choices in a BIG BORE rifle:
A Remington 700 with the .475, er, uh, excuse me, ".470" bbl. put on my 7mm Rem.Mag. action -
OR-
A CZ 550 American Safari in .458 Lott, tweaked by Lon Paul and done up in my favorite 'Tactical Black'...
OR- that'd make 3 choices! -
as we say on AR15.com, "GET BOTH!"

Gentlemen,

Bad news about your favorite rifle can be difficult to accept!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Gentlemen,

Bad news about your favorite rifle can be difficult to accept!

yes dan.. that's true.. and that's the point. wonder where that "bad news" was in his article?

i mean, it's SHOCKING news that overlong ammo performs worse than the same load in a shorter (to spec)round... do YOU put obviously overlong ammo into your guns?

and AMAZING that you can't put 375 weatherby into a 375HH gun...

and DUMBFOUNDING that he infers there aint a 375 weatherby...


and that he can't figure out how to work a model 70 safety speaks VOLUMES

it's a considering the source item, certainly

Jeff,

Here is a short list of the rifle problems identified in the article:

Wby Mark V: safety problem and stuck cases (factory ammo too hot)

Model 700: broken extractors and hard to reload quickly

Ruger 77 CRF - did not eject when bolt was worked quickly

A-bolt - magazine problem

Model 70 - (i) anti-bind rail bent and jammed the gun, (ii) factory stock needs bedding and cross bolts, (iii) author does not like the safety. In all fairness, not everyone likes the model 70 safety.

Mark X - barrels wear out quickly and slide safety can accidentally be pushed to ON when working the action. Some magazine floorplates open unexpectedly.

It would be hard to read the article and not understand that the author has seen the problems that I listed above for the respective rifles. But I also understand that this information may not be welcome.

Dan,
The premise of the story - DANGEROUS game rifles, his evaluation of "STOCK" rifles, and then his dislike of "CUSTOM" rifles is a stupid stupid paradigm. Anyone that takes a FACTORY bolt gun as a DGR, without spending a cent or testing it is a fool. Yes, course..

here's what this fella provides

weathery AINT a US rifle-- loved beating on it with a hammer ..

rem700 -a SINGLE broken extractor that he's ever seen , but has never used one

quote:

The 700 may be a very fine hunting rifle. I don’t know because I’ve never used one,

ruger 77 (which is NOT a crf)-- sir, the mkII have been out for what, 16 years? "doesn't eject when worked "fast"" WTF is "fast".. and actually, they do eject (seen this issue) and of you send about 90 second with a round rifle the issue goes away (this was fixed in the mark II)

Abolt AINT a US rifle

quote:

Beating the floor plate back down with a rock is nearly as much fun as taking a hammer to a Weatherby

Model 70 -- don't care if one likes the safety .. the antibind rail is part of the BOLT, it aint coming ogg.

Mark-X AINT a US rifle--- (which he also PRAISES if it has an english "name" on it)
Barrel life is an unfounded supposition in the artical (I turned one the other day, and it was actually pretty grainy)..

all floor releases, unless worked, will open, dan.

So,
My point it, while there's some pithy wisdom to gleen, the article is a joke, the writer overly biased, and he doesn't provide alternative, just provides BITCHING ...

jeffe

I think the article is a joke. Why are we assuming the American hating writer has any clue about rifle quality, he is in Zim. So he saw 50 guns fired one week Wow what an expert.

You can look at the glass half empty or the glass half full.

We have known that with any rifle, custom or otherwise, if you are going to hunt dangerous game with it, you'd better make certain by trial that they work together.

We have known for years that Mausers will naturally work better when their custom cartridge is of the same dimensions as the original, or the feed is modified to work with the new round.

The model 70 safety is a no brainer; you put the lever in the middle. I don't know many people that carry their rifles by the muzzle in bad brush. (I don't like the idea of carrying a rifle by the muzzle any time, it means you have to constantly worry about what it is pointed at, rather than tending to business.)

I would agree that a shotgun style safety is very convenient, but I have no problem working the safety on my rifles that have lever style safeties on the right side of the action.

Lastly, practice with your rifle makes perfect both in manipulation of its parts and correction of its faults. The time to discover problems is in training. There was an old service saying that sweat spilled in training prevented blood spilled in battle. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


ruger 77 (which is NOT a crf)-- sir, the mkII have been out for what, 16 years? "doesn't eject when worked "fast"" WTF is "fast"..

He was talking about the new CRF one, in 416 Rigby, not the old 1970's one which he said worked just fine.

Lots of people have had difficulty with ejection on the Ruger 416. Sometimes that little ejector slot is too narrow or has a burr in it, and sometimes the ejector spring is too weak. Overall, a fixed ejector is a better system (yes, I know that Win also has a similar ejector).

I had the opportunity to discuss this material wiht the author before the article appeared, and I bugged him to get it into the magazine. He also has described subsequent experiences from other proficiency examinations in African Hunter; they do not always make it to the website.

The reviews do not seem to be getting better.

Also the author is a high speed, low drag operator from the Rhodesia guerilla war days, as well as an exceptionally experienced PH himself.

He knows whereof he speaks.

jim

The problem I had with the article was separating the bad news about *several of my rifles* from attitude. Jeffeosso's comments make it plain that attitude is present. The glee the author reported banging on a client's rifle also suggested attitude (maybe he didn't like the client, or was already assured he wouldn't be expecting much of a gatuity?). But the man does know more than a little -- which makes the inconsistencies show up more (btw: I understand the quality of Mark X's was dependent on whether whitworth did the job -- as they did for SOME of the rifles marked Whitworth). BTW: I have not been able to duplicate the M77 failure he described on my 458 lott.

A plus about the article is that it brought home the following: the rifles are heavy caliber because the animals they are built to stop require it to make them stop. They're big animals that take advantage of their size and strength to keep people like us and critters like lions from trying to kill them... which they will enforce with speed and determination. A Ruger #1 might be elegant, but it represents one chance where we would like to have a hope for two chances... either a second barrel ready to go, or time to work that confounded bolt... and please don't let it jam, or we might be lucky to survive an attack like the one that sent Jack Lott off on his quest for the re-constructed Watts. (and I really, really do enjoy shooting my #1!)

However, I must thank those on this site for making it clearer -- in many ways much more practically clear than the "lessons learned" article, what kind of issues I SHOULD be concerned about in a DGR. A possible improvement of the article could have been a much clearer post mortem on how well maintained these rifles were, or what kinds of improvements could be made to get them working right BEFORE such an exercize.

Dan

Dan,
go read the article as a brief.. and then disagree with me on what it should be titled..

"i can't believe what these apprentences bring to shoot with and how they don't have them gunsmithed"

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


ruger 77 (which is NOT a crf)-- sir, the mkII have been out for what, 16 years? "doesn't eject when worked "fast"" WTF is "fast"..

He was talking about the new CRF one, in 416 Rigby, not the old 1970's one which he said worked just fine.
....

yes dan... finally got down to a point where I'll say yeah...

you are right.. and 90 seconds with a file and it's fixed. Oh, wait, ruger FIXED that already.


the guy is a blow hard, defending his Prejudices... you might take a precaution on avoiding the same

jeffe

Geez, I thought my Ruger was a CRF. What's missing? Can you enlighten me? It's the newer RSM MKII in .375.

Maineguide

The extracter claw grabs the cartridge and controls it from the time it is stripped from the magazine to ejection. That's CRF. The ejector is a small bit of spring-loaded metal in the side of the bolt track. As the bolt is pulled back, a slot in the bolt is set in just the right spot for the spring loaded bit of metal to slide into that slot. As the bolt continues back, the bit of metal acts as a stop on one side of the case, so that when the case runs into it, it gets kicked out the port. The problem quoted with the Rugers was that if the bolt is pulled back too fast, the bit of metal does not get into the slot fast enough to block the rearward movement of the spent shell, and therefore the shell doesn't eject. I tried making my bolt move back really, really fast, and the case ejected each time.

Dan

I have some of the same concerns Jeffeosso has, and at the same time found much of the information valuable.

One thing I will note, though is that Heath did not say all English rifles are good ones...what he said was that although locally (in Africa) all rifles labeled with the names of traditional English makers are assumed by most to be good rifles, that they actually are often not...that there are commonly about three grades of them and that only the top (best) grades can be really consistently relied on in his experience.

He does, admittedly & obviously, have more than a bit of an attitude, but that may have been developed from getting out of "tights" with rifles which failed. Getting the horse exhaust scared out of one a few times does tend to bias one's views.

In his role with the APHA, I also suggest he may have had some friends chewed on where a failed rifle made some small contribution to that eventuality. Again, a real potential attitude bender...

And, of course, most African PHs are just that...professional hunters, not persons to whom the technical aspects of rifle design are intimately known.

Most American semi-pro gun tinkerers know more about what makes rifle actions function than I suspect the great majority of African pro-hunters do. BUT, most African pro-hunters know a great deal more than the vast majority of American gun owners about how it SHOULD perform in the bush, and exactly WHY that is all-important in their occupation.

No criticism of either group intended...they are just living and dealing with differing circumstances from differing viewpoints.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
... Getting the horse exhaust scared out of one a few times does tend to bias one's views. ...

Yes indeed it does!

Just wanted to say Thank You to all the folks (who weren't present at the event) and were able to easily determine that what Don witnessed "first-hand" was ALL WRONG!!!

Interesting how that can be done from afar.

I've seen a few "problems" with rifles right here in the USA, as I would suspect most folks have. And come to think of it it was on ALL kinds of different rifles from many manufactureres.

Interesting he didn't have a Savage in that bunch with the Tang Safety which he seems to like right well.

If this had been entitled
"Attention new PH candidates: Don't let this happen to you"

subtitled
"i can't believe people risk their lives with rifles in this condition"

and outlined the issues with the rifles

and then specific things to check for (no dan, saying a ruger won't feed is not a FIX its a restatement of the problem)

and then suggesting legitimate gunsmithing fixes
- not beating on rifles with rocks... of course that ALWAYS makes them work better-


You know, things like
"okay, if you must have a ruger, check your rifle for funciton, and watch THIS (or these) specific things, and make certain THAT is fixed before coming into the bush"

Of course, saying a model 70 should have a left safety is something of his personal bias... and if a fella can't figure out how to work X model gun, perhaps he shouldn't be carrying it.


Oh, just an FYI.. there's very few bolt rifles that can from the factory with tang safeties... the ruger 77 mk1 and the sav99 are the largest percentage sold...

and NEITHER of those are CRF (mark I's are push feed, mark II can perform in either role)

jeffe

Jeff,

If that is what you want to see in articles, then you must not like Boddington's stuff too much.

I do not know which is the greater sin of gun writers. Spewing their bias on the reader, or pimping the gun/cartridge/scope of the month.

I do enjoy reading those who post factual articles on technical findings. ie: Sherman Bell's articles in DGJ, just to name one.

Hog Killer

Any body who takes glee in beating arifle of mine with a rock or hammer had better pray it remains unfunctional!

Reminds of the story of some famous PH who through his clients rifle into a river because he didn't like it...I can't remember the details, maybe somebody else can chime in?

Back to the original, while I think some of the points have merit, the writer onviously has an anti american bias and an ego problem to boot..

regards,

Pete

I thought he was right on target with the Remington's. The ejector plunger gets plugged when the wind blows, never mind the dust or metal shavings.

Maineguide

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

Reminds of the story of some famous PH who through his clients rifle into a river because he didn't like it...I can't remember the details, maybe somebody else can chime in?

Pete

Pete,
I partially recall the story, about a Weatherby Mark V, but I don't remember much else about it. I do recall a pretty good reaction it got out of MacD37, but my Sometimer's Disease prevents me from shedding anymore light on the subject, as to whether Mac was the originator of the story or not.

I agree the AH author is not an impartial judge of rifles, and Jeffe is better all around as far as fairness here.

I will say that I am glad for an opportunity to read a writer's true opinion rather than mere shilling for the magazine's advertisers.

He still doesn't know the difference between a prewar Winchester and a post war/classic Winchester. As a result he looks like a FOOL to those in the know. I like Mauser rifles more that any others though they be German, Check, Polish, Belgin, French(excuse me), or American. He was spot on on the Remington and proved his stupidity on the Winchester.

I like most rifles as long as they function and are accurate.
I guess I must just be lucky though. I've had a mod 700 since I have been shooting. A lot of other people I know have also and some of them have put thousands of rounds through them and never once have I ever heard of them having a broken extractor and I have never accidentally knocked the safety off on a Mod 700.
Oh well I must be really lucky.

RIP,

I wonder what the PH response would have been if the Client had thrown his Double in the river because thats that what I would have been tempted to do!

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

Reminds of the story of some famous PH who through his clients rifle into a river because he didn't like it...I can't remember the details, maybe somebody else can chime in?

Pete

Pete,
I partially recall the story, about a Weatherby Mark V, but I don't remember much else about it. I do recall a pretty good reaction it got out of MacD37, but my Sometimer's Disease prevents me from shedding anymore light on the subject, as to whether Mac was the originator of the story or not.

Folks,RIP, and PeteE, let me say something before this gets out of hand!

The story you are talking about was posted by our old Grumpy friend from one of the Nordik countries. I don't remember his name,for sure but I think it was Bjorn Clapp, but it means "BEAR" in one of the Nordic languages!

This guy, Bjorn, claimed to be a long time PH in Africa himself, and he did not like me at all. He hated all his clients, and couldn't say anything nice about Americans in general, and American clients, to him were all stupid,and he hated me in particular, because I took exception to his hate spewing. Needless to say, he got under my skin, even before this post.

In the post he was defending the PH for throwing a clients rifle ( Custom shop Weatherby Mark-V) into the river,because he was tired of hearing how good this new rifle was, by the non-stop proclaiming of it's excelence, by the client. So he picks the client's rifle up and tosses it into the river.

My responce to him was, any PH who threw a rifle of mine in the river, was about to be swimming with the Crocs, and Hippos, because he would be tossed there by me, and he wouldn't come out till he found my rifle! The old Swede said it was evident that I did not know the PH very well or I wouldn't have made that statement! Again my response was it made damn little difference who he was, the river would have been his home till my rifle came ashore!

Gentlemen, the Weatherby Mark-V, may be about the least favorite rifle in my list of rifles, but no matter who made the rifle, it is not going to be thrown in a river , unless it is thrown in by it's owner, in front of me!

It seems the rifle wasn't the problem with this PH, but the client's mouth. The PH was wrong, and that was what drew my responce! If he had to respond to the client, he should have simply told him he was tired of hearing his CROWING! BUTTTTTTTttt throw the man's rifle in the croc pond????????????

Mac, right to the point. Would go one step further and say it really isn't about the rifle. It doesn't matter how bad, good, or whatever. It isn't even simply a PH despising his client, or even diresepecting his client. It also reflects disrespect for the simple common human dignity of the client. Even if the client isn't respected, it is honorable to respect the client's dignity. *THAT* would strike me as remarkably professional.

Dan

It's a liberating bit of knowledge to realize that one can fire one's clients. Perhaps Bjorn should have done that, instead.

Thanks for the great read. It does make you wonder about average rifles...

Gentlemen
Let me add this. Over the years I have tried several big bore bolt rifles. NONE were 100% reliable, this included some custom rifles.
I had decided to go to Ruger No1's for my African DG hunts, as I can "work" one pretty good. They never jam, fail to extract or eject.
I did not think I could afford a double rifle.
After watching a few videos, I had to ask my self "HOW MUCH IS MY LIFE WORTH?".

I bought 2 British doubles on the same day.
BEST money I have ever spent.
I have used them all over the US and in Africa.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of Dangerous Game, I fear NO EVIL, for my Double rifle is with me.

Elephants at 6 and 12 yards, 55 lb bull elephant in charge, 2 Grizzly bears in camp,
another grizzly 10 yards from my wife [all while hunting black bear in Montana]....
There is NO substute for a double rifle.
NONE

I need to edit my post to clarify that the grizzlies in Montana were not shot. I was able to run them off with out firing a shot.
My wife and I were on a Black Bear back pack hunt. I was carrying my 9,3x74R Chapuis double.
And I will say when grizzlys are that close the 9,3 double did feel good, though no doube the 450/400 or the 450 No2 would feel a little bit better.

The elephants were shot in Zim 2004 with my 450 No2 and 480 Woodleigh Solids.

I seldom feel the need to reply Subscribers to the magazine who disagree with anything I, or any other writer says are free to write in- need a full name and snail mail adress please.

Still, much of the critisism is my own fault- going off and asking somebody else to take the photographs... I do know what an M70 safety looks like - I own one- A post 64 (Push feed!!!!). And I still feel that the safety is on the wrong side- Jeff Coopers explanation to me notwithstanding. Most youngsters comming up into the hunting industry have grown up with a rifle with the safety catch on the left- a Lee enfield or F.A.L. To change requires alot of practice.

It is also, no secret that I like light responsive rifles. Winchester 92, M1 Carbines, Model A Mausers... And that too many modern rifles have all the "feel" of a mopane log.

Also, we see very few "new" rifles here in the hands of apprentices... What a client carries is irrelevent- such a rifle is seldom "tested" under the worst conditions that I would expect a PH's rifle to function in.

Anyway- please feel free to send your Constructive input to us!

Don
Welcome to AR.
Question?
How do double rifles fare on the Appie tests?

I agree that the Winchester safety is on the wrong side. I own M70's and have no problem with the safety as built. I do believe that a reversed safety would be faster.

Dave

Now if they could only put it on the tang....