Don,

Thanks for responding to this thread.

I enjoyed your article a great deal and agree with much of what you said. I think it's very important to put both oneself as well as ones equipment through it's paces and see how it all pans out under pressure. The Rifa course proved that point....IMHO

No matter what a design or concept looks like on paper or how well it funtions when its user is at liesure the addition of stress & duress can reveal short commings not apprent elsewhere.

Regards,
Dave

NE 450 No2,

If you go to the African Hunter website and take a look at a couple of articles, IIRC, including the one in question, you will find that DRs perform without issue and that the speed/accuracy test are won by guys with DRs, especially when the tests involve reloading.

Best JPK

Don,
welcome to AR. I've never seen a winchester with the safety on the left, nor would I carry one, as I sling when walking open fields (sling off in heavy brush) and I am right handed, which puts the safety on the "brushable" side.

Glad you are here, far better to "face" a man than to sling BS at him from the sidelines.

jeffe

I am generally right handed but shoot long guns like rifles or shotguns left handed. The Winchester style safety has never been an issue, even though I sling a rifle like a righty would and prefer a double rifle and shotguns with tang safeties.

Couldn't sell or even give me a rifle with a safety that didn't lock the bolt since when I carry one - and I own one - I often find the bolt open, some times the cartridge gone.

And Don, I hope you stick around and participate; I am a huge fan.

JPK

Thankyou for the wellcome - whilst I generally try and keep my comments for the magazine- after all that is what the boss pays me for, this is quite an old topic and I see it has been thrashed arround a couple of times.

Until very recently I never saw an "apprentice" with a double rifle. The first bloke to turn up with one that I saw was Kevin Robertson (Doktari), but he was a successful farmer, had been hunting buffalo on a restricted licence for several years etc-

Of late with many ex farmers turning to hunting after their farms were taken over, we are seeing more and more.

Still, at the pre season heavy rifle shoots and lately on the proficiency exam, double rifles do very well. I do not belive there is a better choice for dangerous game- Do I own one? No. My .450, my two .404's and a dozzen other fine rifles now look like a house. And I now make do with just two heavy rifles. An F.N. built Mauser and the Winchester M70. Seasons will change though.

Jeff Cooper explained to me why American rifles have their safety catch on the (wrong) side. A right handed shooter should keep his thumb on the right side of the action to avoid getting a knuckle up the nose. This was important on the short stocked Springfield 03's and has been carried on. With a Heavy rifle it also makes sence- for a client or anyone who is used to that system.

One of the shoots that we used to do for the PH exam was a night shoot ( or a simulated niight shoot with the sights taped over). Candidate had a loaded rifle and a torch- and 1.5 seconds to get rifle from loosly by side to hole in target. It showed up who wasn't familiar with their rifles - there were alot of cut lips and blood noses.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

Reminds of the story of some famous PH who through his clients rifle into a river because he didn't like it...I can't remember the details, maybe somebody else can chime in?

Pete

Pete,
I partially recall the story, about a Weatherby Mark V, but I don't remember much else about it. I do recall a pretty good reaction it got out of MacD37, but my Sometimer's Disease prevents me from shedding anymore light on the subject, as to whether Mac was the originator of the story or not.

Folks,RIP, and PeteE, let me say something before this gets out of hand!

The story you are talking about was posted by our old Grumpy friend from one of the Nordik countries. I don't remember his name,for sure but I think it was Bjorn Clapp, but it means "BEAR" in one of the Nordic languages!

This guy, Bjorn, claimed to be a long time PH in Africa himself, and he did not like me at all. He hated all his clients, and couldn't say anything nice about Americans in general, and American clients, to him were all stupid,and he hated me in particular, because I took exception to his hate spewing. Needless to say, he got under my skin, even before this post.

In the post he was defending the PH for throwing a clients rifle ( Custom shop Weatherby Mark-V) into the river,because he was tired of hearing how good this new rifle was, by the non-stop proclaiming of it's excelence, by the client. So he picks the client's rifle up and tosses it into the river.

My responce to him was, any PH who threw a rifle of mine in the river, was about to be swimming with the Crocs, and Hippos, because he would be tossed there by me, and he wouldn't come out till he found my rifle! The old Swede said it was evident that I did not know the PH very well or I wouldn't have made that statement! Again my response was it made damn little difference who he was, the river would have been his home till my rifle came ashore!

Gentlemen, the Weatherby Mark-V, may be about the least favorite rifle in my list of rifles, but no matter who made the rifle, it is not going to be thrown in a river , unless it is thrown in by it's owner, in front of me!

It seems the rifle wasn't the problem with this PH, but the client's mouth. The PH was wrong, and that was what drew my responce! If he had to respond to the client, he should have simply told him he was tired of hearing his CROWING! BUTTTTTTTttt throw the man's rifle in the croc pond????????????

MacD37,
The PH who threw the Weatherby rifle in the river was the late Erik Rundgren, a Swedish PH who died some years go. I think that the story goes like this;
The american tourist hunter had two rifles, one Win m 70 pre 64 in .375 H&H and a Weatherby in .300 Weatherby. Eric told the tourist to bring the .375 on the Sitatunga hunt. The tourist shot a Sitatunga, that escaped and it turned out that he had taken the .300 Weatherby and not the .375 H&H. Eric calmly asked to have a look at the rifle and then threw it overboard. A client shall listen on his PH advices..

With all respect MacD37, I 20% of the stories about Eric Rundgren are true, neither you or I would have a chanche against Eric in "hand to hand" combat, and thus becoming the "wet" ones

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
With all respect MacD37, I 20% of the stories about Eric Rundgren are true, neither you or I would have a chanche against Eric in "hand to hand" combat, and thus becoming the "wet" ones

Regardless of size, no man is beyond defeat. I might have gotten wet, but that changes nothing, the day anyone throws a rifle of mine in the drink, will be the sadist day of his life! I don't care how big he is, he has to close his eyes sometime.

Addtionally, the PH is working for the client, not the other way round, and the rifle belongs to the client, not the PH, and if the client lost the sittitunga he's the one who must pay for it! I see no reason to use a 375H&H over a 300 WBY MAG on sittitunga, anyway, and in this case the PH was dead wrong on all counts. You may be the wet one, and I might have gotten wet in the tussel, but he damn well would wish he had not thrown my rifle in the drink.

Like my opinion of Bjone Clapp for defending this ass hole of a PH, I believe anyone who defends such actions is wrong. Right is right, and wrong is wrong,the PH was wrong!

Simply because a man is large, means nothing, It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of fight in the dog, that decides conflict!

Eric Rundgren was one of the best PH.

my gun in the drink...

can't imagine what would prompt a man in MY EMPLOYMENT to believe destroying my property would be a positive construction.

I would have a hard time continuing my employment of this fellow, considering his maturity level. You know, that level that I am pay him to protect me for, and without which I could become injured.

Yes,
those displays of maturity and adult thinking are amazing.


Amazing...

assinine, but amazing

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Eric Rundgren was one of the best PH.

if he threw a clients rifle in the drink, I believe we have different measure tools to determine "best'

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Eric Rundgren was one of the best PH.

if he threw a clients rifle in the drink, I believe we have different measure tools to determine "best'

Seems to me that many of those who veiw themselves as "best", are arrogant bastards who think they're omnipotent.

Sounds like this PH was one of them...

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
...Jeff Cooper explained to me why American rifles have their safety catch on the (wrong) side. A right handed shooter should keep his thumb on the right side of the action to avoid getting a knuckle up the nose. This was important on the short stocked Springfield 03's and has been carried on. ...

Hey Don, I can see where that was probably true at one time. Only problem is that information isn't really relevant to a M700 or a Weatherby due to the stock design.

As to the position of the Safety Lever being on the Right Side for both of those rifles(in RH models), they provide the ability to "ease" the Safety OFF without making any metalic Click by proper manipulation.

Depending on the amount of finger Pressure required to move a particular Safety lever, you can either Roll it(M700 & Wby) forward with the thumb on top, or if necessary Pinch it between the thumb and trigger finger to "ease" it forward.

By having the Safety Lever positioned on the same side as the shooting hand, there is much less movement involved, when viewed from the front, and your hand does not have to move as far out of proper shooiting position, than if the Safety Lever was positioned on the opposite side of the Receiver.

When hunting in close quarters within our Southeastern USA Swamps, I personally find the ability to create less metalic noise and less visible movement to be a significant advantage for the hunting "I do".

And I also have opportunities to take longer distance shots. Often when I see what I really want to kill, there happens to be a good number of "eyes" between where I am and the intended kill. Once again, I find less metalic noise and less movement to be an advantage for me.

So, I do appreciate the fine folks at Remington and Weatherby properly placing the Safety Lever on the same side as my normal Strong Hand position.
---

I'm sure having difficulty "believing" the Weatherby-tossed-in-the-River story. Were any of you there to witness it?

Don,

Thank you, sir, for your posts. I must say, they do not sound quite as much like someone who is ready to beat a guy's rifle with a rock (whatever went wrong with it)...

While it was clear there was much that can (and did) go wrong with a large fraction of the rifles at the PH test, I did find it hard from the article to figure out how to avoid those failures besides lots of shooting, making sure the rifle worked, etc -- but then, I'd be in the position of having to depend on guys like you (not to say I wouldn't be trying my damndest in a bad situation to make things come out safe). Still, things can break -- then everyone feels the clock ticking.

Bottom line *I* found valuable is that one needs to know how the rifle behaves, they need to get anything that's screwy with it fixed, and it has to be able to perform well enough to be counted on when the buffalo is charging.... very useful for a client, invaluable for a PH.

I will take your idea of shooting at night to heart -- a friend of mine I hunt with has chided me on occasionally hunting squirrels (well -- its the only thing around here with the right shade of grey...) with my .458 -- now I'm going to take it with me for coyotes (legal to hunt at night here).

If I may, I'd like to ask what advice you would have for clients pursuing dangerous game? Do you have particular advice concerning equipment and performance?

Dan

Don Heath,
Thanks for the basis you supplied for this discussion. I wanted to comment before but didn't know where to start.
Boy some people here get on their high horse if you mention their Country/Rifle/Calibre in a not so good light.
Some of them would die of fright if they saw their "Custom Gunsmith" pounding on their rifle during work in progress.

So if an apprentice was able to finish and pass the test because you "tapped" a little with a nice clean smooth rock, I'll bet they were pleased.
This site is full of problems with DG rifles and bias about them, but look out if a foreigner does the same.

A recent poster here mentioned a faulty rifle causing a 3day tracking job which lost a wounded animal. So a jaded, hot, tired PH "lost it" and tossed a Weatherby in a pond.

Well some here have implied that's where it should be. And some Safari clients too no doubt. But not the ones here on AR, who generaly would respect his PH and his directions so wouldn't get into those situations.

Anyway, what I was wondering after reading your article is, what is to be done. Reading about poor apprentices with dodgie rifles, you'd think perhaps their employers could help out a bit with checking and gunsmith costs. Why have these apprentices wandering around with them and their clients with dangerous gear.

But then even the PH's on the brush up test were having problems?

Are most problems enduced by nerves and speed above normal requirements?
I mean, if you opened a Double and dropped both reloads you'd know who to blame, but a badly loaded magazine may jam for the first time ever.

Sorry about the ramble, anything to keep the topic going.

Nerves, weather from an "examiner" standing behind you with a timer or a charging buff are a significant cause of rifle failures... Look at the case of Howard hunter who accedentally put the safety catch on during a reload with a charging buff only inches away. He hit the buff between the eyes with the muzzle and couldn't work out why his rifle wouldn't fire! (then the client shot him and the buff tossed him and it got messy).

"Nerves" happen to the best at times - but good rifle design should minimise that. It is also a great truth that all guns work perfecty until a competition. At the world IPSC champs in South Africa three years back Ron Avery- who came third- had his new STI pistol fall appart on day three. In fact, if you go to a regular IPSC match you will see auto pistols jamming at regular intervals. At our Olymic nationals one of the Walther USP pistols went full auto and fired a five round burst- very disconcerting...

I suppose what I am getting at is any firearm can fail. One must do everything possible though to ensure that it doesn't fail when the chips are down- which of course is when finger trouble is most likly to compound rifle trouble.

Also, Most apprentices are poorly armed. Even when they qualify they need a couple of seasons before they can afford something "new". Also, far too many don't care. They never fire more than one shot anyway, if they need to back up a client. How often does a PH get charged? If he is good - and lucky with his clients - perhaps once or twice in a lifetime? Your clients wound stuff and you will face trouble more often. Guide clients on bow hunts for dangerous game? You will get charged a couple of times a season. The idea of the exams- is to make sure we are not letting loose an under trained man loose on clients - but only too well aware that, like driving a car- you only really learn once you get a licence!

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Boy some people here get on their high horse if you mention their Country/Rifle/Calibre in a not so good light.

JAL,
funny enough, my "favorite" rifle is a 1903a3 in 257 roberts, not an item worth mentioning in a dgr post. Perhaps you are a tad off base thinking that it has anything to do with my country (which didn't make 4/7 of the rifles mentioned.. but DOES actually make rifles) , for if you rean Don's latter note

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
I suppose what I am getting at is any firearm can fail. One must do everything possible though to ensure that it doesn't fail when the chips are down- which of course is when finger trouble is most likly to compound rifle trouble.

Also, Most apprentices are poorly armed. Even when they qualify they need a couple of seasons before they can afford something "new". Also, far too many don't care. They never fire more than one shot anyway, if they need to back up a client. How often does a PH get charged? If he is good - and lucky with his clients - perhaps once or twice in a lifetime? Your clients wound stuff and you will face trouble more often. Guide clients on bow hunts for dangerous game? You will get charged a couple of times a season. The idea of the exams- is to make sure we are not letting loose an under trained man loose on clients - but only too well aware that, like driving a car- you only really learn once you get a licence!

Don,
If you article had been written from that EXACT point of view, that "any firearm can fail".. and "most apprentices are poorly armed" ... and THEN extrapolated to the hunters and rifles in general, I believe you would have had a great article.. in fact, a re-write from that tack would be an excellent read...

then one can, with a veil, mention field gunsmithing and your opinion on safety catches.


You might then mention "first shot groups" ... where did the lad put that first and critical shot during his PH test....

and your actuall disappoint with those that SHOULD be firearms handling experts and their lack of familiarity with they tools of the trade.

I've seen lumberjacks whittle statutes with a 36" chainsaw, in minutes... men who spend their lives working with that tool..... Sounds to me that some of the apprentices would be lucky not to put the first pressured round (after they cleared the USER created jam) in the dirt... just a question of experience with a tool, i think.

Jeffe -
Which magazine exactly do you write for? I must have missed that little nugget of information. How much fun was it to stand at the Zim PH exams (as Dr. Heath has done for... how many year's have you been administer of the exam Don?) and actually see what worked and what did not? It is great to see you exercising your Monday morning quarterbacking skills. If you think it is so damn easy to do what Dr. Heath does, let's see what you got. Where exactly is your byline? Which of the many trade magazines are you editor of? When was the last time you had to meet a deadline on a story? You stated that Don is anti-American, so I am assuming you have spent numerous hours talking with him about his political views, instead of jumping to conclusions like some ignorant redneck? So he does not like certain rifles, he has seen them fail time and time and time again. When/once you have walked a mile in his shoes, then taut your opinion about what he has seen and done. As for the whole hammer, rock situation - It is what it is and in the field you use what is available to you. So actually, him using primitive tools and/or methods to "fix" these rifles is just part of the examination. So he enjoyed it a little, was it any skin off your nose? Get over it. Life is too short.

BWN300Mag,
Sorry if this comes over too harshly. I feel that your reply merited a reply in the same tone as presented.

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
Jeffe -
Which magazine exactly do you write for? I must have missed that little nugget of information.

As you are undoubtedly aware, I don’t write for a mag, and further reference to this strawman argument is an interesting, though not particularly effective argumentative tactic. Not sure the relevance of this point, other than to question the “authority†of a poster… which one do you write for? Seems to be a fair question, now that you’ve asked it

quote:

How much fun was it to stand at the Zim PH exams (as Dr. Heath has done for... how many year's have you been administer of the exam Don?) and actually see what worked and what did not?

And yourself? I mean, if you infer that undergoing this exact experience is the only valid perspective for discussing the subject, perhaps you wouldn’t mind sharing how many times you have done the same? Interesting line of questions… It appears you aren’t actually addressing what was said, rather your conclusions as to the comments on the article.

Let’s ask some other random experience questions
How many multimillion dollar technology projects have you ran?
Okay, that might be a tad overly defined…
How many multimillion dollars projects have you ran?

Not your line of work?
Okay, this is a gun related forum

So, how many DGRs have you built, actually addressing Don’s universal truths of “it must feed and function?†.. I don’t mean have you commissioned or bought.. I mean how many have YOU taken from nothing to perfectly functioning rifle?

There’s a whole line of “one poster isn’t EXACTLY the other†questions that can be asked, but they aren’t irrelevant now are they, as one person’s experience can’t exactly match another’s, can they?

quote:

It is great to see you exercising your Monday morning quarterbacking skills.

Interesting you see this in that light. Perhaps critical reading skills might actually be the frame of reference in this discussion, but then again, you may not take it that way.

quote:

If you think it is so damn easy to do what Dr. Heath does, let's see what you got. Where exactly is your byline? Which of the many trade magazines are you editor of? When was the last time you had to meet a deadline on a story?

I believe this line of questions was based off a false assumption (as opposed to a conclusion on your part). I don’t recall questioning his line of work nor his ability to produce.

Deadlines? There’s a frame of reference that most can relate experience with. I believe speaking to meeting deadlines (which is a normal course of action during most people’s employment) is a rather common experience and doesn’t actually contribute to an interesting discussion, bordering on “shop talk’ when one is out with friends which is generally a faux pas unless that dinner is a working meeting.

quote:

You stated that Don is anti-American, so I am assuming you have spent numerous hours talking with him about his political views, instead of jumping to conclusions like some ignorant redneck?

You said “ignorant redneck†Great line to bring to bear on a person jumping to conclusions. Please DO quote me exactly saying he is anti American… I would be very interested in seeing were I posted something that could be interpreted in that fashion. I DID post that his naming of certain firearms as American made was incorrect. Go READ my first post on the subject – I pointed out factual errors relating to Dan’s views on “American†guns… Just for the record, the rifles in his article (from the vintage, not the new current change at weatherby) – Weatherby – Made in Japan, --Browning –made in Japan – Mark X (double factual error in the article) Made in what, Yugoslavia? And then praised when having an English name…

quote:

So he does not like certain rifles, he has seen them fail time and time and time again. When/once you have walked a mile in his shoes, then taut your opinion about what he has seen and done.
So actually, him using primitive tools and/or methods to "fix" these rifles is just part of the examination. So he enjoyed it a little, was it any skin off your nose?

Walk a mile in his shoes before “taut(I think you meant tout, as I presented, rather than drew tight) .. Does this apply to all conclusion jumping rednecks or just myself?

As for the whole hammer, rock situation – I certainly agree that IF this happened in the field you use what is available to you. However, it is inferred (though not perfectly clear – yet another example of critical reading skills and context) that this happened during the PH testing, a rather controlled environment, and he had a hammer for the weatherby, why wasn’t it used on the browning? I can assume that these are actually unrelated incidents and a rock was available at that time.

In either event, striking a rifle with a rock ,in an article relating rifle failures during a PH exam, as hardly a good solution, wouldn’t you agree? I could presume that hitting a rifle with a rock certainly could bring MORE failures, past the immediate one being corrected

quote:

Get over it. Life is too short.

I couldn’t agree more, though I fail to see your dog in the fight.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

As for the whole hammer, rock situation – I certainly agree that IF this happened in the field you use what is available to you. However, it is inferred (though not perfectly clear – yet another example of critical reading skills and context) that this happened during the PH testing, a rather controlled environment, and he had a hammer for the weatherby, why wasn’t it used on the browning? I can assume that these are actually unrelated incidents and a rock was available at that time.

The PH exam is conducted in the field where DG is hunted, not in a gunsmith's shop. Either the PH candidate gets his gun working and completes the exam, or he fails and waits it out until the following year. Facing an additional year of employment as an apprentice, which pays US$100/mo., is not a pleasant prospect for a lad hoping to move on to gainful employment as a full-fledged PH. Don helped the kid get his Wby working again using what was at hand - a rock.

What's wrong with that?

It was a damn sight more helpful than throwing a rifle into the river.

end of all debat....

MAUSER WORKS, forget the rest(maybe a good boxlock ej double rifle would do well)

If we assume that Dr. Heath is correct and that rifles tend to have problems more often when fired under the pressure of time and performance expectations then maybe we should be putting on similar competitions here in the states. Wouldn't it be great to have the confidence that your rifle (and you BTW) can perform when needed. I am in the process of setting up a course of fire based on the Zim profeciency exam at our local rifle club for those that will, hope to or dream about hunting dangerous african game.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
The PH exam is conducted in the field where DG is hunted, not in a gunsmith's shop. Either the PH candidate gets his gun working and completes the exam, or he fails and waits it out until the following year. Facing an additional year of employment as an apprentice, which pays US$100/mo., is not a pleasant prospect for a lad hoping to move on to gainful employment as a full-fledged PH. Don helped the kid get his Wby working again using what was at hand - a rock.

What's wrong with that?

It was a damn sight more helpful than throwing a rifle into the river.

Dan,
Yes Dan, PH tests are given in the field, with proctors (or which ever name you wuodl like to give staff)...

The WEBBY was the hammer, the BROWNING was the rock. Can we please keep these facts striaght?

The idjit that threw a rifle in the river should have faced a fine and suspension, imho, for ENDANGERING a client...

I don't believe anyone stated they were at a shop, other than yourself. Of course making ridiculous statements and arguing against them may SOUND good, but it's usualy important to realize who made teh statements.

What's the deal with strawman statements these days?
jeffe

Jeff,

Several of us are wondering why you have such a big burr under your saddle about this article.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Eric Rundgren was one of the best PH.

if he threw a clients rifle in the drink, I believe we have different measure tools to determine "best'

I could change best to "most experienced"?

And not to excuse eric, but doesn't everybody have a bad day sometimes? Just look at Hr Hitler -he invaded Poland

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Jeff,

Several of us are wondering why you have such a big burr under your saddle about this article.

Err.. I am at least one of the guilty parties for having gotten a burr. It is possible there were also a few sources of confusion as well.

1) I had the impression that, in relating his story of Weatherby failures, that Don Heath kicked in his story about a client's Weatherby and the rock, along with how much he disliked them -- and that the performance of the brand in the PH test did nothing to raise his opinion. It is possible I had misunderstood what I read, and that it was an apprentice's rifle which failed during the test. I'll check that later. IF Don H. helped out an apprentice, it is entirely my own misunderstanding, and I owe Don an appology.

2) there is this other story now floating around about another PH who threw a client's rifle in a river. I don't know anything about that... BUT it is still something that would have upset me -- as a client. On the other hand, when it comes down to it, I'm likely to listen to my PH.

---- continuing followup -----

I was mistaken, and I *DO* owe Don Heath an appology. The passage in question is

quote:

It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different.

It does appear that a 2 lb hammer, not a rock, was used. Also, from the context, it was a NEW Weatherby (it looks like a .416 -- the "new" threw me -- figured it was a client bringing a rifle that he had not practiced with), which jammed up after too much over-hot ammo.

Don -- if you're still tracking this, I am sorry to have blamed you for an action you were not guilty of.

Dan

Was I the only one to read into the original article, a touch of satirial licence, to perhaps entertain us while we read about serious problems?

Maybe even the PH, AND the client are now laughing when either tell the story of the underwater Weatherby. It's not exactly the biggest tragedy out of Africa, and the non payment of a "tip" should have nearly covered any loss.
And better than getting dead for walking around with a pea-shooter that one was told to leave behind.

Anyway I like Don's writing style, and I thought we were supposted to comment on the problems encounted? Silly me.

Jeffe,
Since one of the intentions of this forum is the free exchange of ideas, etc, etc, your level of harshness (or mine for that matter) are really of no consequence.

I was/am unaware of your profession. Which it doesnot really matter, I do not really feel is a factor in this discussion (strawman arguement as you would call it) anyway, at least not at this stage. If you are inquiring which particular magazine I write for, well, I have written an article for African Hunter magazine. Am I a "professional" writer? Not yet, but then we never know what the future holds.

I have not had the pleasure of observing, or participating, in the Zim PH exam. I do believe it is something I shall have to do one of these days. However, I have seen and had the opportunity to stand upon the grounds in question. Very impressive actually. I do not believe that I did infer undergoing the experience was the only way to gain a valid perspective on this situation. I do believe that I did infer that since his data was taken from a particular year's exam, that unless you were in attendence and saw for yourself the problems the appy's were dealing with, how could you accurately defend any depiction of the events which unfolded? I do not recall ever stating that I was there. I was merely asking if you were.

As for my experience with multimillion dollar projects and the like. When exactly did I state, insinuate, or otherwise lay claim to having accomplished such feats? Oh but then that was just a dig, wasn't it? Good for you. But I guess if I pissed 50 ft, you could piss a stream that would knock over an ele at 100?

If I mispoke on the anti-American comment, well you have an apology forthcoming (not quite just yet).

Gee, you caught me in a spelling error with "taut". There's one that I have no choice but to relinquish to you. By the by, that would apply to all ignorant conclusion jumping rednecks, including you (possibly even myself at times).

As for the whole hammer, rock situation – I certainly agree... let's allow that one to pass. The exam is stretched out over several days. Maybe the hammer was available one day and not readily available when the second rifle malfunctioned. I do not know as I was not there.

As to the subject of my dog. Well, Jeffe, I do believe that he is tied up just next to yours. Anything else or do you need to do some more critical reading?

Oh, hell I almost forgot I was holding an apolog...

bwn300mag


jeffe

quote:

Elephants at 6 and 12 yards, 55 lb bull elephant in charge, 2 Grizzly bears in camp,
another grizzly 10 yards from my wife [all while hunting black bear in Montana]....

450#2, 55LB is a damn nice ele for Montana! Plus 2 griz, wow, I'm jealous.....

Bob

DanEP,
Don Heath left Zim today for... The USA!

He will be back on the 30th of January.

Husky

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
DanEP,
Don Heath left Zim today for... The USA!

He will be back on the 30th of January.

Husky

Going to SCI? If you have a communication with him, Husky, please forward my apology.

Dan

Bob
I need to go back and clarify my post to indicate that the grizzlys in MT were not shot, fortunately I was able to run them off with out shooting.

If Don is going to be at SCI at Reno, maybe Dallas, then Jeffe has the chance to meet him in person and express his opinions.

I think the jist of the article is that most production rifles are built to meet a specific market price - cheap - because most buyers are not willing to anti up for something of higher quality. And to get one to function reliable enough for DG huting some tuning and tweeking is necessary.

As far as the PH tossing his clients rifle in the drink, I have to wonder what transpired up to that point. I can't imagine a seasoned PH just flinging a mans rifle to the crocks. I field endless technical calls every day and there are a few of my customers I'd just love to throw into a river (why reck a good rifle).

We have an advantage of having heard the author's view on the question.

From the article, it wasn't simply production rifles -- though he did justice to Remingtons. He hit Weatherbys primarily for too-hot loads jamming up in hot weather (strictly a handloading proposition). He pushed CRF, and liked brunos because they held up best even with significant wear, lack of maintenance and, lots of abuse.

On this site, he said that the biggest problem leading to the failures had to do with operator error under pressure. The biggest problem with the rifles he wrote about were that they were old and NOT in good repair. One exception would have been the Weatherby. Even new, hot loads jammed it up.

In the end, you're partly right, I think. The market production *is* as cheap as they can get away with. For most clients, its enough -- if the client actually shows up with a rifle that is suitable. PH apprentices are therefore faced with the problem of finding a suitable rifle in a market saturated with these "cheap" production rifles. Given Ruger's DG gun runs between $1.4K to $2K, and Winchester's custom shop version runs more. But the son-of-brno's, the CZ's, while cheaper, DO need work to get them ready -- it isn't surprising that the $100/mo that an apprentice earns puts these production rifles -- usually used and banged up -- into their hands. It's *THESE* rifles that Heath was writing about.

Of course, given my last faux pas, I would not be surprised that I've only dimly grasped what's going on this time around, too!

As for throwing a rifle in the river -- I suspect things have rolled pretty far downhill by then. Perhaps, even if for the sake of safety, the best thing is to offer the client their money back (minus trophies taken), and let them go home early. Or is that also contrary to ethical standards?

Dan

quote:

Bob I need to go back and clarify my post to indicate that the grizzlys in MT were not shot, fortunately I was able to run them off with out shooting.

No need, just trying to inject so levity into the discussion. I do, however, truely wish MT had elephants, I'd even settle for less than 55lb!

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
He hit Weatherbys primarily for too-hot loads jamming up in hot weather (strictly a handloading proposition).

I think it was written or mentioned elsewhere that PHs in Zim who use the 460 Wby often buy factory ammo, pull the bullets, dump 10 grains (weight) of powder out, re-seat the bullets, and go hunting.

The good news for the apprentice PH is that used FN Mausers in .458 can be purchased in Zim for US$250.

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
DanEP,
Don Heath left Zim today for... The USA!

He will be back on the 30th of January.

Husky

Going to SCI? If you have a communication with him, Husky, please forward my apology.

Dan

Yes, he is going to SCI.