quote:

Michael,what if a hunter sees a lion at 80 or 100 or 120 yds and he is hunting with open sights and is really good with the rifle offhand,should he not shoot?

Not even with a scope and a dead solid rest! First, what is the point of shooting a lion at 80-120 yds? What is the point of hunting "Dangerous Game" at "Long Range"? The further that animal is away from you, the more chance you can have a problem, a stick gets in the way, you are just a bit off, the sun gets in your eyes, whatever, and the "LESS" chance you have of correcting the problem--at 80-120 yds correcting an issue at that range is damn near zero! With EXTREME PREJUDICE the answer to that question is a very BIG NO--Under no circumstances should a lion be shot at 80-120 yds--the first shot!

quote:

I am sure many here will agree that it only takes 100yds to make a rifle that groups them all in one hole,to spray them all over in that distance.Now,why would that be if everything on the rifle is in order?

I am very positive you will not find the answer to this by shooting off hand and introducing human error into the issue.

quote:

There is certainly something that disturbed the bullet while in was going down the bore and did caused it to not retain that accuracy the extra 100rds.Was it copper?

You cannot answer that off Hand either! I have a lot of big bore rifles, I have never heard of fouling or seen fouling have an effect on accuracy at DG ranges. I have some bores on the B&Ms that have NEVER seen a bore cleaning, after many hundreds of solid copper bullets being put down the bore, still a hole at 50 yds. I suppose if you had a cheap barrel with faults in it..............I don't know. Still can't answer any of that without putting it to the test, on the bench!

quote:

Wasn't it Winchester who believed that barrel vibration had an effect on accuracy and introduced the BOSS system for that? How about barrel vibration when the rifle is shot offhand compared to when it's shot off the bench,is it the same? Does it affect accuracy?

I think it was browning, but don't keep up with such nor care, never heard of one on a big bore rifle? Barrels are normally heavier, stiffer, on big bores, I own a 100 plus big bore rifles, I have never seen one of mine shoot different from the bench to off hand. Now those little mouse rifles with mouse barrels can do all sorts of things, but I don't mess with mouse rifles, so I won't go there. Big bores, nahh. If it did, I would know it, as every hunt I ever been on I do a lot of bench work first, then go off hand, never seen anything like what you are talking about.

quote:

Wouldn't a bullet that was somehow disturbed before or while it is going down the bore cause increased copper fouling?

Shootaway, only thing disturbed around here is YOU!

My apologies buddy, I could not resist it! LOL...Kidding with you of course.

I don't think copper fouling is much of an issue in bores of 458 caliber. If it is, then the barrel must be horrible, and I have never seen one. Disturbed bullet? How can it get disturbed--you should see some of the crap I shoot here doing test work, making brass, all sorts of things--I would not even put a photo up of some of the crap I bust a cap on. Awful looking stuff!

Michael

Michael,I conclude that you either have not done enough shooting offhand or off the bench or if you have you did not pay attention to every detail that came up.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Michael,I conclude that you either have not done enough shooting offhand or off the bench or if you have you did not pay attention to every detail that came up.

Shootaway

HEH HEH--Well, maybe one day when I grow up I can be as good as you are, and know as much as you know.

Michael

Michael,I think most of your energy was spent in other shooting areas besides big bore accuracy-hunting,gun collecting,bullet penetration,wildcatting...

Michael458,

I suggest you have the following done sequentially:
1) root canal, no sedatives or anesthetics;
2) tatoos applied to the soles of your feet, eyelids, lips, fintertips and private parts;
3) whole-body waxing
4) removal of your finger and toenails with a pair of needle-nose pliers.

All of that would be less painful for you and for the rest of us who so stupidly click the "Show Post" button for those who are otherwise on the "Ignore" list.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Michael,I think most of your energy was spent in other shooting areas besides big bore accuracy-hunting,gun collecting,bullet penetration,wildcatting...

Shootaway - you must be out of your mind. Please go and take your medication. And as Rob says - Lay down untill the idea goes away
And take the helmet of now - somehow it must compromise the bloodflow to your brain..

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael458,

I suggest you have the following done sequentially:
1) root canal, no sedatives or anesthetics;
2) tatoos applied to the soles of your feet, eyelids, lips, fintertips and private parts;
3) whole-body waxing
4) removal of your finger and toenails with a pair of needle-nose pliers.

All of that would be less painful for you and for the rest of us who so stupidly click the "Show Post" button for those who are otherwise on the "Ignore" list.

Ya'll just got to know eh? Have to hit that ""Show Post"" just to see what's up!

HEH HEH HEH!

I can't help myself--it's out of control

M

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Michael,I conclude that you either have not done enough shooting offhand or off the bench or if you have you did not pay attention to every detail that came up.

quote:

Michael,I think most of your energy was spent in other shooting areas besides big bore accuracy-hunting,gun collecting,bullet penetration,wildcatting...

Shootaway

You may be correct, I am doing my best to do better, but just as an example of some of the things I try and keep up with. I keep a file on every rifle that is shot here. Have been doing so for several years. I have a filing cabinet that I keep these in. Info on the rifle of course, but all targets shot for "load data" is also kept in that file. Some files go back into the 1990s, some rifles I don't even have now, but still have the files.

Drawer #1


Drawer #2


Drawer #3




These are the active files that are kept on my bench currently, with rifles I have been working with recently.




The following is an example of some of the things that are located within the files.








I will do my best to improve and keep up with and pay more attention to things like accuracy. I will also try and shoot a little more in the future, after all right now I am only averaging 250-300 rounds a week the last few weeks, but took last week off, and this week too! I will endeavor to try my best to live up to standards!

Thanks for all your help and advice!

Michael

What would we learn if we shot a rifle at 10yds and all shotts hit in the same place? Nothing! What would we learn if we only shot new barrels with super smooth bores? Nothing! What would we learn if we could easily buy a new rifle when the one we have did not shoot well today? Nothing! What would we learn if we could not shoot out to 200yds or 300yds? Not much! What would we learn if we could not shoot in the cold,rain wind,chrono our loads etc... what would we learn if we did not shoot high velocity 30 caliber or 7mm calibers and see what effect they have on the throats of our bore? Not much! what woukd we learn if we only shot the rifle of the bench? Nothing!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I am very positive you will not find the answer to this by shooting off hand and introducing human error into the issue.

Michael

Michael,

I see you are still stubbornly refusing to acknowlege that when shootaway shoots offhand...there is no human error!! He is the Chuck Norris of offhand shooting. He does not flinch...the rifle does. If there is a flyer...the copper did it!! ALWAYS! Shootaway DOES NOT MISS....there MUST be something amiss with the rifle or ammunition. Period.

If you want to know what a rifle is truly capable of, you send it to shootaway for an aggressive cleaning (the kind that makes his arm tired...can you imagine how your arms would feel!) followed by some precision offhand target shooting...all carefully documented on previously used targets and photographed.

When you understand all that, his posts will start to make a lot more sense to you.

If that happens, of course, you may want to shoot yourself.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Best....thread....EVER!!!!

That said, the solution to the mystery is obvious. By shooting offhand, the gun recoils freely, and the frictional heat generated by its rapid motion through the dense Montreal atmosphere raises chamber pressures to hitherto unimagined levels. Highly pressurized combustion gases are ejected through any possible opening, including the mysterious hole in the bolt. As these gases funnel through this small hole, their already high velocity is augmented many times, resulting in the ejecta achieving speeds that warp Einsteinian space/time and create a wormhole effect. The loaded cartridge travels through this wormhole, then returns, but now it bears the dented case mouth it received when it hit the receiver upon ejection, even though it has not yet been fired. Mystery solved.

Pictures are not possible, since photographic proof would defy the illogic of the situation, resulting in a quantum chronological inverse-Euclidian subatomic zipperdoodle that could conceivably consume the planet.

Care must be exercised when retrieving or posting targets fired under these conditions, since the strong possibility exists that bullets not yet fired (but shot the next day) may unexpectedly appear in flight in front of the target frame while the shooter bends to examine today's targets. Standing off to the side would alleviate this danger.

You're welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Best....thread....EVER!!!!

That said, the solution to the mystery is obvious. By shooting offhand, the gun recoils freely, and the frictional heat generated by its rapid motion through the dense Montreal atmosphere raises chamber pressures to hitherto unimagined levels. Highly pressurized combustion gases are ejected through any possible opening, including the mysterious hole in the bolt. As these gases funnel through this small hole, their already high velocity is augmented many times, resulting in the ejecta achieving speeds that warp Einsteinian space/time and create a wormhole effect. The loaded cartridge travels through this wormhole, then returns, but now it bears the dented case mouth it received when it hit the receiver upon ejection, even though it has not yet been fired. Mystery solved.

Pictures are not possible, since photographic proof would defy the illogic of the situation, resulting in a quantum chronological inverse-Euclidian subatomic zipperdoodle that could conceivably consume the planet.

Care must be exercised when retrieving or posting targets fired under these conditions, since the strong possibility exists that bullets not yet fired (but shot the next day) may unexpectedly appear in flight in front of the target frame while the shooter bends to examine today's targets. Standing off to the side would alleviate this danger.

You're welcome.

I think you are very close to a Unified Theory of Shootaway, but I spot one flaw in your logic.

When you and I shoot offhand, the rifle recoils freely. In Shootaway's iron grasp, however, I believe it is just the opposite. Maybe it is the lack of free recoil, and the powerful and extraordinarily steady grip that Shootaway places on the rifle, that raises pressures to hitherto unknown levels?

LMAO....I am really glad that you raised the possibility of future bullets crossing the range unexpectedly. When shooting at the Montreal range, I will stand off to the side henceforth.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Best....thread....EVER!!!!

That said, the solution to the mystery is obvious. By shooting offhand, the gun recoils freely, and the frictional heat generated by its rapid motion through the dense Montreal atmosphere raises chamber pressures to hitherto unimagined levels. Highly pressurized combustion gases are ejected through any possible opening, including the mysterious hole in the bolt. As these gases funnel through this small hole, their already high velocity is augmented many times, resulting in the ejecta achieving speeds that warp Einsteinian space/time and create a wormhole effect. The loaded cartridge travels through this wormhole, then returns, but now it bears the dented case mouth it received when it hit the receiver upon ejection, even though it has not yet been fired. Mystery solved.

Pictures are not possible, since photographic proof would defy the illogic of the situation, resulting in a quantum chronological inverse-Euclidian subatomic zipperdoodle that could conceivably consume the planet.

Care must be exercised when retrieving or posting targets fired under these conditions, since the strong possibility exists that bullets not yet fired (but shot the next day) may unexpectedly appear in flight in front of the target frame while the shooter bends to examine today's targets. Standing off to the side would alleviate this danger.

You're welcome.

JWM and Canuck

I don't know how to thank the both of you for bringing these things to light. You see I have done little shooting across the border, and the simple fact is that I had no idea that it was possible shooting could be effected by the dense Montreal atmosphere, and space/time wormhole effect, and those sort of things. It's no wonder we are having such a hard time understanding that down here in the lower parts of the continent! I will say that the "quatum chronological inverse-Euclidian subatomic zipperdoodle is absolutely frightening to consider all the possibilities that could occur from just that alone.

I too will take a stand off to the side when shooting across the border.

Thanks for the help and the advice, and the insight into this matter!

Michael

No problem, Michael. I can understand how you, living in a free country, would fail to consider these finer points of external temporal ballistics, since you never have to worry about them. Up here in Canuckistan, the federal government mandates an in-depth course and exam for anyone with the temerity to express an interest in guns or shooting, and all this stuff is covered in detail.

Canuck, I totally overlooked the iron-grip aspect of the Shootaway case. Maybe those dents are just caused by his thumb as he presses the rounds into the magazine?

Must go now. The snow is tapering off, we have a fresh four inches on the ground, and conditions for tracking Boreal Snow Rhinos are ideal. I've just loaded up some depleted-uranium armour-piercing tracer rounds for my .303 Lee Enfield, and I calculate it has another five accurate shots in it before it has to be retired. Wish me luck!

John

shootaway, I mean this as a serious response and helpful suggestion generally (as I'm running out of youtube comedy skits).

The shooting sports were meant to be fun. And you're trying to be way too technical and pedantic with all this. That's not necessary. Just concentrate on what you're really attempting to accomplish and don't let yourself get hung up on minutiae.

I have reason to know whereof I speak. I did the same thing once when first learning another line of work, until it was pointed out to me.

That's the best advice you'll ever get on this.

Anyway - Michael, I was wishing I could peek in that filing cabinet folder maked .416 Rem Mag. Do you have a less than full load in there somewhere you're partial to with the 400 grainer??

Shack

Man all my 416 Rem data is not very up to date, latest data reads 2005! I used a lot of IMR 4064 then, around 76 grs was just at or slightly under 2400 fps with the 24 inch guns. Later on 12/2005 I see I tried 83/H-4350, for 2320 fps and really liked that load a lot with 400 Woodleighs. Another very low pressure load was 80/IMR 4350 and a 400 gr bullets at 2170 fps, very mild and shot well. That's about all I have on 400s and lighter loads in 416 Rem.

Right at the end of 2005 I started the B&M series, and that ended my work with 416 Remington.

I still have 3 or 4 rifles in 416 Rem.

Michael

Do you guys have any idea what Pepsi One feels like spurting out of your nose?
Bastards!

Pepsi One, ain't that the light stuff? Should try full on, no light COKE!

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Canuck, I totally overlooked the iron-grip aspect of the Shootaway case. Maybe those dents are just caused by his thumb as he presses the rounds into the magazine?

Must go now. The snow is tapering off, we have a fresh four inches on the ground, and conditions for tracking Boreal Snow Rhinos are ideal. I've just loaded up some depleted-uranium armour-piercing tracer rounds for my .303 Lee Enfield, and I calculate it has another five accurate shots in it before it has to be retired. Wish me luck!

John

Genius! Sometimes the answer is so simple we cannot see it right under our nose, but I think you may have just solved this riddle!

Best of luck with the Snow Rhinos! I'd love to join you, but I am between barrels at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
When you understand all that, his posts will start to make a lot more sense to you.

If that happens, of course, you may want to shoot yourself.

This guy Shootaway - is he just trying to be funny or is he just truly stupid?

quote:

Another very low pressure load was 80/IMR 4350 and a 400 gr bullets at 2170 fps, very mild and shot well.

Michael, did that require a filler? And, you're SSK, right? Do y'all do custom loads for the non-handloader? If so, I might be interested at some point.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled relentless nonsense..

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

Another very low pressure load was 80/IMR 4350 and a 400 gr bullets at 2170 fps, very mild and shot well.

Michael, did that require a filler? And, you're SSK, right? Do y'all do custom loads for the non-handloader? If so, I might be interested at some point.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled relentless nonsense..

Shack

No filler. Well not quite SSK, I should be, but I would not let JD give me a time card! I figure he can't fire me as easy if I don't get a check each week! HEH HEH. That was just a hand load I was messing with a very long time ago.

You really should consider gearing up to hand load, it's a great adventure and opens your shooting horizons!

Michael

Shootaway

Where did you go? You can't hide?

Are you scrubbing that bore with a wire brush again? No wonder it's wore out! You scrubbing that thing too much! Before long it will look like a shotgun bore! Smooth and shiny! Better stop cleaning before you get to that point, talk about an accuracy issue, you will have one then! But not to fear, I have an excellent recipe for shot shells in big bores!

I think they beamed him up earlier!

Michael, I'd like to. In fact I once did a lot of handloading. But it was in shotshells and way back in some other lifetime. We're now way too far down the old road...and no going back..

Y'all enjoy having fun with shootaway..I've already given him my best advice..

quote:

When you and I shoot offhand, the rifle recoils freely. In Shootaway's iron grasp, however, I believe it is just the opposite. Maybe it is the lack of free recoil, and the powerful and extraordinarily steady grip that Shootaway places on the rifle, that raises pressures to hitherto unknown levels?

Canuck, That has got to be one of the funniest lines posted on here. lmao

Michael458, You have the patience of a saint for all you have posted on this thread explaining things to Shootaway.

Can't believe some of the things Shootaway has said and believes in this thread. This thread is out of control but is sure entertaining.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
What would we learn if we shot a rifle at 10yds .....Nothing!

targets are at 50 ...
MM shoots more in a month than i currently do in a year...

But good: what has happened here?, it grieves me to see that a thread derives in a "fight". I hope that everything should be solved.

A greeting,

Oscar.

Oscar

No worries, no fight, no problems. Shootaway and I are pals! We just don't see some things in the same light is all! Shootaway is a "Long Range Dangerous Game Sniper", myself, I rather get close and personal and see the whites of their eyes before dancing! HEH HEH. I also "Cheat", as I use a scope and a sling to do my work.

Shack

I never loaded a shot shell in my life (except for loading some shot in big bore cases playing with the rifles). I really enjoy loading the big bore rifles and playing with that. I have to load handguns sometimes, BORING--drives me insane. I normally load 5000 or more of that stuff, then don't have to load for a long time, unless my boys get into the stash and shoot it up!

Jeffe

Hey Buddy! Where the hell you been? Whats up down in your neck of the woods?



Shootaway

Once again, that off hand shooting, the last target you posted, mighty fine shooting. I can't wait to see the difference in a scrubbed out bore next!


M

quote:

Originally posted by 375fan:


Michael458, You have the patience of a saint

Well, I think someone has nominated me for "Saint Hood", I just don't know exactly when that is going to be awarded yet!

Just to update the thread,I was out at the range again and saw that the rifle,although the bore had been cleaned with JB again and again,the point of impact has fallen really low.The above group at fifty yards is no longer possible and the POI has dropped tremondously.The bore is gone.I was chasing the erosion of my lands all along and this was the cause of all my issues.The rapid bore deterioration was caused by shooting solids too often.My other Ruger seems to have endured much more that I shot regular soft with.The Ruger extractor has caused me alot of headaches.The lack of leverage for the extractor on the bolt has caused poor ejection issues on both my Rugers.IMO,solids and copper monometals are really tough on bores and less accuarte than softs.It is advisable IMO,to shoot them as little as possible or else you can kiss your bore good-bye!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Just to update the thread,I was out at the range again and saw that the rifle,although the bore had been cleaned with JB again and again,the point of impact has fallen really low.The above group at fifty yards is no longer possible and the POI has dropped tremondously.The bore is gone.I was chasing the erosion of my lands all along and this was the cause of all my issues.The rapid bore deterioration was caused by shooting solids too often.My other Ruger seems to have endured much more that I shot regular soft with.The Ruger extractor has caused me alot of headaches.The lack of leverage for the extractor on the bolt has caused poor ejection issues on both my Rugers.IMO,solids and copper monometals are really tough on bores and less accuarte than softs.It is advisable IMO,to shoot them as little as possible or else you can kiss your bore good-bye!

If indeed your bore is gone, then it was caused from way too much over cleaning and the overuse of bore paste

Poor Ralf Martini..
I wonder if he knows what he is getting into...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Just to update the thread,I was out at the range again and saw that the rifle,although the bore had been cleaned with JB again and again,the point of impact has fallen really low.The above group at fifty yards is no longer possible and the POI has dropped tremondously.The bore is gone.I was chasing the erosion of my lands all along and this was the cause of all my issues.The rapid bore deterioration was caused by shooting solids too often.My other Ruger seems to have endured much more that I shot regular soft with.The Ruger extractor has caused me alot of headaches.The lack of leverage for the extractor on the bolt has caused poor ejection issues on both my Rugers.IMO,solids and copper monometals are really tough on bores and less accuarte than softs.It is advisable IMO,to shoot them as little as possible or else you can kiss your bore good-bye!

Can you give a rough round count you have put thru this rifle? Even better if you can break it down by softs, solids, and mono.

quote:

The bore is gone.I was chasing the erosion of my lands all along and this was the cause of all my issues.

I almost asked some time back if maybe you weren't overdoing the cleaning. Fwiw among the first things I learned about rifles was how many rounds the more common types of barrels were good for and to guard against over-cleaning..especially with bronze brushes if that's what you're using.

It was several lifetimes ago, but in ROTC we had to repeatedly clean rifles as part of weapons training even when they were already clean and didn't need it. After years of that, you could forget any accuracy. But, that wasn't what they were for..

Shootaway,

Throw that bottle of JB's away and your bore wear problems will be over. I promise you that!

465H&H

I have it on good authority, that more bench rest barrels are worn out from incessant cleaning, than fouling and throat/barrel erosion.

Rich
DRSS

Shootaway- your cleaning skills are in doubt. Why not apply Robs Final Finish? Roll a few solids in epoxy and 240 grit valve grinding compound. Shoot till the bore loosens up enough to provide optimal accuracy. This way you can save your right arm for physical rather than mental masturbation. You'll thank me later.

A 500g solid bullet is like a locomotive trains wheel riding on a railroad track.It's going to wear out the track faster than it would if it weighed nothing and was made out of wood.Some cartridges where out the throat before anything else.The 458 will eventually wear out the lands,much faster with solids,IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
A 500g solid bullet is like a locomotive trains wheel riding on a railroad track.It's going to wear out the track faster than it would if it weighed nothing and was made out of wood.Some cartridges where out the throat before anything else.The 458 will eventually wear out the lands,much faster with solids,IMO.

Its pure BS that you state that a 458 wears out barrels faster than other cartridges. Actually big bores dont suffer throat erosion as much as smaller magnum class bores do.. Your statement about solids wear barrels faster depends on what kind of solids.. Modern solids like North Fork, Barnes Banded, GS Custom and similar will wear less than traditional soft point bullets.

I think you should look more (critical) through your cleaning procedures..

Attempting to ascertain rifle accuracy without removing the human elemet is extremely flawed. The bench with proper rests helps remove a lot of the human element and is far suoirior to offhand shooting in asertaining rifle accuracy