I plan to build a 458 Lott or a 470 Capstick on a Sako Hunter. Now, I need to know more about 470 Capstick.
Where can I get brass?
What bullets do i need to get them to expand properly on Moose?
What velocity is normal out with 500 grains bullet?
It would be nice if anyone had a pic to show me on a loaded 470 Capstick cartridge.
I have read that some people said that they got problem with extraction due to the cylindrical cartridge, is it true?
Regards Kalle

welcome to the forums..

the loot an the capstick at the same brass (375 hh full length) and the same length loaded.

lott is nominall 500gr at 2300
capstick is 500 at 2200 (i think)

the lott is the most practical of all big bores... cheap to feed, cheap for brass and dies, and, frankly, you can buy one for the price of a good rebarrel/sights/feeding/bluing

jeffe

Exactly what jeffeosso said.
Starcharvski.

Ditto,

The Lott, is probably the most flexable big bore around. There are tons of different bullets that can be loaded for just any purpose. These range from mild 45-70 to the fullhouse 458 Lott. Its just a great round.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


lott is nominall 500gr at 2300
capstick is 500 at 2200 (i think)

Actually, the official velocity of the Capstick is 2400 fps according to the designer A-Square, but you would have to push the pressures to get there. It has a little more case capacity than the Lott, and the 500 grain bullets are a little shorter, so you can fit in a little more powder and get a little more velocity, if you want to push the edge of the envelope.

From a practical standpoint, due to selection of bullets available and factory ammo, the 458 Lott is the way to go.

26" velocities for the 470 Capstick in the 10" twist McGowen barrel are around 2400 fps as Art says for hot loads. I have a Win.M70 so built to Art's manual specs, and I have 3 of the .458 Lotts: MarkX, CZ550, and RugerNo.1.

Real life practical 500 grainer velocities in 24" barrels will be closer to:

2200 fps .458 Lott
2300 fps .470 Capstick

Yes indeed, the .458 Lott is way more practical, and can be hot loaded, but works great at 2150 to 2200 fps with 500 grainers, or a gentle 450 grainer at 2300 fps will sedate anything on the planet, IMHO.

Brass I have is BeLL, out of bidness, Quality Cartridge was making it IIRC. A search by google ought to turn that up. HDS from Huntington's???

.458 Lott brass from Hornady is great, anybody supplying Capstick brass would probably have more choices in .458 Lott. I have some HDS Lott brass.

Bullets are no problem for either, but the .458 variety is much greater.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=281

There is a pic of a loaded cartridge on that page, albeit not a very good one. It also provides some load data if you'll surf around a bit.

http://www.gunsonthenet.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30924427

Here's an overpriced gun for you to consider!

I have a ruger no.1 in 458 lott, and I am getting 2325 fps with 89 grains of H4895, its heavily compressed if i want to crimp on the conelure, But the ruger is a single shot and I seem to be able to getaway with no heavy crimp and the bullet seated way out so it touches the lands which on my ruger is almost .2 of an inch
thats with 510 grain soft points pulled from factory 458 win mag ammo, im having alot of fun with it... love the lott, even up here in canada the lott is same price to shoot as my 375 H&H

thats .2 from the conaleur..

I think the 470 Capstick (475 Ackley) has been minimalized on this thread, the cross section of bullet from .458 to 475 does seem make a difference..if there is such a thing in killing power, especially in big bores...

I get the impression that my 470 is a better hammer than the 458 Lott that I used to shoot and it shouldn't be..but then none of this makes a lot of difference to me as they all kill very well from the .375 on up....

I forgot to mention the 500 gr 458 has the highest "normal bullet" sectional density, and I hear it has a reputation as THE penetrator round. sd .331

Rip,
you've got experience on the lott... and a few more do as well.. the lott, loaded to the same pressure are the win, hits and beats 2300 with 500s... hell, that's what hornady factory loads do,... not "published"... chronoed

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
welcome to the forums..

frankly, you can buy one for the price of a good rebarrel/sights/feeding/bluing

jeffe

Welcome to the forum!
I agree with the above statement, especially when one considers you can get a better action that has CRF, in the process! Simply buy a brand new CZ 550 458 LOTT, and you got it all, for the cost of a GOOD barrel Job!

captainmorgan:

Do not have my data in front of me...but 89 grains of H4895 seems a bit much...if my memory is working correctly today. Possibly works well for in your gun with your components?

I have a CZ 550 in 458 Lott 25" barrel and use H4895 with Barnes 500 grain TSX and Solids. My load using the Barnes data chronographs 2300 fps but much reduced charge from yours.

Hornady factory ammo chronographed right at 2200 fps for the soft, and about 2240 fps for the solid, 500 grain. CZ 550 barrelof 25". Oehler 35 chronograph. They claim 2300 fps on the box.

IIRC you can get the Hornady RNSP up to 2240 fps with 85 grains of RL-15, in a 25" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Actually, the official velocity of the Capstick is 2400 fps according to the ?designer? A-Square,

Actually "borrower" might be a better title. O'Niel, Keith, and Hopkins called this ol' gal the .475 O.K.H. back around WW 2 or before. Long before A-Square was around at any rate!

The Lott with expanding bullets would be the logical choice BUT with solids all the frontal area you can get relates to how they "hammer" DG I am thinking. Frontal area of solids wins every time as the caliber increases...... Even .50 or more is great!........

BigRx

quote:

Originally posted by BigRx:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Actually, the official velocity of the Capstick is 2400 fps according to the ?designer? A-Square,

Actually "borrower" might be a better title. O'Niel, Keith, and Hopkins called this ol' gal the .475 O.K.H. back around WW 2 or before. Long before A-Square was around at any rate!

Pardon, but I do not think those earlier designs had a ghost shoulder which A2 implemented on the Capstick version, which accounts for the Capstick's superior accuracy compared to the 458 Lott round which has a continuous taper on the case.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Pardon, but I do not think those earlier designs had a ghost shoulder which A2 implemented on the Capstick version, which accounts for the Capstick's superior accuracy compared to the 458 Lott round which has a continuous taper on the case.

My .458 Lott features a ghost shoulder also.
How to do you may find on my website.

Norbert: I couldn't find what you were referring to on your site but I thought the Lott had a continous taper and the 458 Ackley had a shoulder like the Capstick...

wolf

quote:

Originally posted by wolfrum1:
Norbert: I couldn't find what you were referring to on your site but I thought the Lott had a continous taper and the 458 Ackley had a shoulder like the Capstick...

wolf

Wolf,

Go to www.grosswildjagd.de/ballisti.htm
It is on the german chapter, at the end of the chapter .458 Lott Ballistik.
It is in german, but I think self explanatory.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I think the 470 Capstick (475 Ackley) has been minimalized on this thread, the cross section of bullet from .458 to 475 does seem make a difference..if there is such a thing in killing power, especially in big bores...

I get the impression that my 470 is a better hammer than the 458 Lott that I used to shoot and it shouldn't be..

That is a very good point.

JJS,

Its definately just for my gun, A, its a ruger No 1. , my load would not be happy in a bolt gun, I have the bullet seated out closer to the lands but not all the way, its heavily compressed still, and they are 510 grain bullets not 500s, if that makes a huge diff or not, I have no signs of pressure with this load, I will be making up a load for hornady 500 grain bullets, and I have to make a load for some barnes X tripple shocks still too, seating is yet to be determined on those because the bullets are sooooo long being all copper... what load are you using for your TSX's? so i can work around that for mine??

If one has a ghost shoulder on his Lott, its probably because he is making cases from 375 brass or whatever...

The chamber on a 458 Lott should not display a ghost shoulder..

Ray, I have blown out 300Wby to 458 Lott, using cormeal, they looked just like any other Lott case.(Wanted to see what would happen)

Maybe it is realy chambered as a 450 Ackley, and marked 458 Lott.

Hog Killer

It always seemed to me that a strong selling point for the Lott is that in a pinch you can use 458 Winchester ammo. You can probably bum that from your PH but good luck finding Capstick ammo should your luggage be late.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If one has a ghost shoulder on his Lott, its probably because he is making cases from 375 brass or whatever...

The chamber on a 458 Lott should not display a ghost shoulder..

Ray,

I followed the link to Norbert's site, and I believe he's creating the shoulder on the Lott brass by running it through a .458 WinMag sizing die that's been cut off at 48mm until 12mm of the Lott case protrudes. The 12mm is then all uniformly sized to the inner diameter of the top of the .458 WinMag die, forming a ghost shoulder/neck.

He's also doing something with a second shortened die, which I'm not sure about.

Norbert, could you confirm the first part and let us know what the second truncated die is used for? Also, do you have the chamber of the barrel cut any different to compensate for the neck?

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:

I followed the link to Norbert's site, and I believe he's creating the shoulder on the Lott brass by running it through a .458 WinMag sizing die that's been cut off at 48mm until 12mm of the Lott case protrudes. The 12mm is then all uniformly sized to the inner diameter of the top of the .458 WinMag die, forming a ghost shoulder/neck.

He's also doing something with a second shortened die, which I'm not sure about.

Norbert, could you confirm the first part and let us know what the second truncated die is used for? Also, do you have the chamber of the barrel cut any different to compensate for the neck?

Steve

Steve,

I confirm the first part of your post.
The second, shorter die is for full lenght resizing of used cases. But for DG hunting I now always use newHornady Basic cases #8798.
For chambering I used both, a Lott/Watts reamer for case lenght 2.85 and a second with parallel neck. An experienced toolmaker can convert a Lott reamer.
But important for the improvement is only the parallel neck of the case. There is no difference when fired from a original Lott chamber or from a chamber with parallel neck.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Pardon, but I do not think those earlier designs had a ghost shoulder which A2 implemented on the Capstick version, which accounts for the Capstick's superior accuracy compared to the 458 Lott round which has a continuous taper on the case.

500grains,

Looking at chambering reamer dimensions show this "buzz word" so called "ghost shoulder" as actually a straight case with two separate body tapers.

The Capstick drawing shows a .500" diameter at the mouth and a .501" diameter down about a half inch (.478") while the .475 OKH reamer has a diameter of .505" at this second point with a like .500" mouth diameter. So the "ghost" is a mere .002" and would take a trained eye to even see it! Using "Shoulder" is stretching the definition of the same to the max.

In order to get the claimed accuracy improvement, clearances in this "neck" area would have to be tight; something I certainly wouldn't want in a dangerous game rifle! With nominal clearance seen in these chamber areas mentioned on the norm, accuracy would be comparible. Accuracy is in the throat configuration for these DG calibers if you want the "real" reason anyway...........

Now while the Lott reamer dimensions I looked at showed a straight taper configuration; I can see an advantage for this "dual" tapered case here if .458 Win Mag is to be used as well to maximum accuracy potential. Here the tighter "dual taper" area will hold the shorter round more concentric as shorter case length and more "free bore" from the shorter o.a.l. come into the picture. I doubt it worth the effort for a special reamer configuration as having to use .458 in a pinch should be small with the Lott's popularity gaining daily.

So I must stick with my word "borrower" as it is the most polite word I can use while still typing with a straight face.........

BigRx

quote:

There is no difference when fired from a original Lott chamber or from a chamber with parallel neck.

Norbert,
Is that so also if .458WinMag cartridges are fired in the Lott-Ghost chamber?

I like the ghost-shoulder very much and think it a pity the original Lott lacks one. But, the possibilty to fire WinMag in the Lott chamber seems to be iportant to many.

Regards,

Norbert,

Thanks. Very clever conversion.

I've been equivocating on converting an extra .375H&H in left-hand to .458Lott. I like the shoulder on the Ackley better for better potential accuracy, but primarily because I hoped to save work on reloading for range shooting and load development by neck-sizing.

But I think the availability of Lott ammo and components trumps the Ackley's ease of reloading and accuracy potential. Your ghost-shouldered Lott is neat and probably more accurate, but not labor-saving. I wonder if some .458 caliber neck-sizing die could be used on the ghost-shouldered Lott once your modified brass had been created with the .458WM cut-off dies? .460 Weatherby wouldn't work because it's too thick. I suppose you'd have to get another custom die.

Very neat, though. Thanks for sharing that.

Steve

I don't think the "ghost shoulder" amounts to a hill of beans. I do like the cut off die method.

I modify .338 Lapua Magnum dies (cut off at top for body and shoulder sizing) and .378 Wby and .460 Wby dies (cut off at bottom for neck sizing) to load the .45 Lapua and 9.5mm Tornado.

Bent and Steve;

quote:

Is that so also if .458WinMag cartridges are fired in the Lott-Ghost chamber?

Yes, but as I said, there is no need to convert the Lott chamber.

quote:

Your ghost-shouldered Lott is neat and probably more accurate, but not labor-saving. I wonder if some .458 caliber neck-sizing die could be used on the ghost-shouldered Lott once your modified brass had been created with the .458WM cut-off dies?

The 48 mm cut-off die is also used for neck sizing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
I don't think the "ghost shoulder" amounts to a hill of beans. I do like the cut off die method.
[QUOTE]

I have to agree with you RIP.

Full length sizing dies, especially in straight cases, are horrible as to the "one size fits all" mentality! The last straight case dies I bought were .405 Win in RCBS, and I swear you could almost size a .375 Win or .38-55 with them! I had to remove a max of .012" from this die about 1 3/4" deep!! To "fit" a good tight chamber no less!

Personally I prefer to "size" the die....... I don't have a straight case sizer that hasn't been modified. I would MUCH rather have the taper a close fit to the chamber than any ghost shoulder! This accomplishes the same thing with additional mechanical advantage being in your court as well.

I still vote for a correct throat configuration to get superb accuracy from either a straight or heavily tapered case however. "Holding" the seated bullet concentric trumps trying to do it with the case everytime for me and gives you a little more "racing clearance" as well.....

BigRx

BigRx,
Yes indeed. When I have loaded .458 Lott with my dies, the bullet is seated tight up against the case along the bearing surface, parallel sided, hence ghost shouldered with no special efforts.

If the chamber was ghost shouldered and tight toleranced, that could be a problem in a DGR. So, a ghost shouldered chamber would need to be sloppy enough for DGR work. Why bother. It is indeed a non-issue.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
When I have loaded .458 Lott with my dies, the bullet is seated tight up against the case along the bearing surface, parallel sided, hence ghost shouldered with no special efforts.

If the chamber was ghost shouldered and tight toleranced, that could be a problem in a DGR. So, a ghost shouldered chamber would need to be sloppy enough for DGR work. Why bother. It is indeed a non-issue.

Ron,

indeed it is normally a non-issue.
It depends on the dimensions of the chamber and the case, if you really will have some, evtl. only aesthetic improvement.
The parallel sided bearing surface of some "normal" calibrated Lott cases looks very ugly, sometimes like a lighthouse. The ghostshoulder then is a negative one.

The lott is better from a practical point of view but the capstick is more interesting.

I agree the lott is the more practical, but after using my .470 a good deal over the last several years, I think the cross section of the 470 Capstick does make a difference between the 458 and 470 Capstick, all else being equal the 470 Capstick is the superior killer, not that it makes a heck of a lot of difference since both will kill buffalo and elephant with aplomb.

I've used the .470 Capstick on Cape buffalo; I cannot say that the .017" increase in bullet diameter made a lot of difference, but it's nice to have, and the .470 Capstick is not as 'common' as a .458.

George

Ray,
then if the .475 bullets is better than the .458 (.017 difference) then the .550 must be a monster compared (.092 over the lott and .075 over the 475)

YEEHAAA
jeffe

I am suprised that the capstick never made it to being chambered in more common rifles as it has an vailble case etc.

PC,

Big bore shooters are a very small group within the shooting community so there isn't an opportunity for very many sales. Most rifle manufacturers are run by accountants and lawyers now, not riflemen and hunters.

The recoil of a .458 Win. Mag. is beyond the capabilities of most casual shooters (and most shooters are casual shooters), let alone a boomer like the .470 Capstick.

Every time I fire my Capstick at the range, I get all these guys coming up to me asking me "what the hell are you shooting, an elephant gun?"
"Precisely", I answer and show them a loaded round. The next word out of their mouth is "Wow!", followed by a "no, thanks" to my offer to let them fire it.

George