I have toyed with building on of these for a long while. Getting close to wrapping up my "other" projects and the only real show stopper on this is how to smartly do it. It has keep this on the back burner for years so to speak, and I have talked to several smiths, looked up all the archives here and it always comes back to doubt, and no clear path to proceed forward.

My requirements would be CRF as I think that building a 404 in a bolt rifle and not having that feature is pointless. I am aware of the Enfield route but that doesn't excite me much and I see it as a a black hole money pit with little upside, with the only value in shooting it out.

Mauser 98 would be my first preference, but in my limited undersstanding of the complexity of the design for this application even a FN Mag action is not a great choice.

Is there a simple expediate path to 404 Jeff in a CRF action. Say a new production mag model 70?

I expect this is going to cost, and reasonable efforts are expected, what I don't want to fund is a problem child from day one that won't feed properly in the end and effectively ends up as a single shot 404.

Words of wisdom from the more knowlegable board members would be appreciated. Give details please. In reading old threads this has been danced around many times but not directly addressed.

I am certain a big bore is in my future and I am not quite prepared to bag the 404 yet, the path of least resistance here seems to be the 416 Rem, but it isn't a 404, but I am not going to fund something either that I have engineering reservations on.

Rails isn't what concerns me, magazine box and followers seem to be the area of most concern.

If somebody had CAD or Solidworks drawings, or even dimensioned pics of the original Jeff action, I am willing to tackle this, but without some starting detail its a non starter in my mind.

Anyway some words of wisdom here are requested, and if the guru's are out there I think its on this board.

What are you looking to spend? I think that can really dictate it. If the budget allows then you can have the magazine box made for the cartridge per mathmatical formula of Mauser and that will solve the main issue perfectly.

They can be built right, there are a few guys on the board, and some guys here have originals, so there are places for reference. Money is a key thing on this cartridge though from what Ray and others have said.

Red

Spend is a relative term. I have both my own lathe and mill so depending on the complexity it is time and materail issue. I have at least one smith that would get involved, at what level that would be determined.

I am not expecting to do this on a song, it will require time and materails, which translates into money any way you slice it. I am not willing to fund a 5K rifle that might not work.

I am not certain to the details, but in a perfect scenario, I would need to buy a suitable action, and no $2.5K is not what I had in mind there. Starting point would be in the low hundreds to $1000 range. Magazine issues and rails is what it requires to work properly but thousand of dollars is not what I have in mind, but I certainly don't expect a hundred bucks is going to addess this issue.

Again lets look at this a budget 404, but function must not be compromised. In the end a ugly 404 a PH would carry is waht I have in mind. I am an engineer, function is foremost in my thoughts, pretty and cosmetics come second.

Building from a P-17 is a fine start and as you say...a tad spendy....however reworking a '98 mauser is no walk in the cheap park either.

I'd say that any action currently housing the .375 H&H successfully (or look at actions in ultra mag) will be adequate for the 404 Jeffy

I built mine out of the 1999 Montana action but didn't add the extra cartridge bottom metal. I'm not sure where to get it for that model either. Mine handles one up and two down without alteration.

If one really wants a big bore the cheapest way is to order it from the winchester custom shop for about $3,000 and then you can have a 416 rigby or a 416 Rem.

If you really want a traditional 404 then the folks that make the square bridge mausers are the ones to see.

Frankly the 1999 way I went is a good way for a cheap route.....but to do it right the tab will easily run over $3,500.....I have over $2,000 in mine and no labor cost at all....all my own work!!!

Any M70 Winchester can be used if it will fit the after market "windowed" RUM box, spring, and follower that you can get as "parts."
I rebarreled an M70 Classic Stainless that started as a .300 RUM. This one has worked with never a hitch. 1 up 3 down in the box.

Easiest is to just buy the CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic. The factory has no trouble getting the .404 Jeffery to work in that rifle. I own one and verify it works flawlessly. 1 up and 5 down in the box.

The CZ 550 Magnum Box for the .375 H&H is ideal (by Mauser Cosine Law) for the .404 Jeffery. Simply rebarreling one of those is fine. Any competent gunsmith can easily do that.

The CZ 550 Magnum has the true Mauser self-locking extractor. I prefer the full works true Mauser Magnum action for a .404 Jeffery, however.

A light and handy Magnum Mauser in .404 Jeffery in walnut and blue would be only 9 to 9.5 pounds.

Why do all the whiners insist they are too heavy and bulky, and hence that the .404 Jeffery needs to go into a standard M98 after weakening it to lengthen it?

Rip,

Thanks for the tip on the CZ, I didn't realise that was a factory chambering, I was under the impression these were only 416 Rgby's and Lotts ( which is probably the most common sense big bore around).

What are the details on the aftermarket stuff for the Model 70? And I gather the 98 while highly desirable is the most troublesome route?

The cheapest route is to get a Mod 70 RUM and rebarrel to 404. The magazine and follower should be close. The CZ is supposed to be a nice rifle and require only a bit of tweaking but it is about 1750 list if I remember correctly. Let us know what project you end up with.

Ok a thought, because its parts that are readily available what about a magnum FN action?

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Ok a thought, because its parts that are readily available what about a magnum FN action?

as far as I know the CD Zastava is a copy of that action.

quote:

as far as I know the CD Zastava is a copy of that action

Boy that makes it sound positive, but will it work? Is it a good choice?

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

as far as I know the CD Zastava is a copy of that action

Boy that makes it sound positive, but will it work? Is it a good choice?

I don't know.....How many chas daly actions do you suppose D'Arcy Echols builds into rifles each year?????

Montana Rifle Co. Long Action. Lothar-Walther .423 Super Magnum Sporter barrel.

You can get the barrel action from Montana Rifle Co. However last time I check their 404 Jeffery barrel was .424. This may have changed.

Get you a good piece of Walnut from Robert Watts at Watts Walnut

Have it all sent to Tip Burns in Canyon Lake Texas.
Tip Burns, Burns Gun Repair

He's almost completed my two 404 Jeffery projects.

Or like RIP said above the CZ in 404 Jeffery.

Vapodog,

Yeah right, I bet he is beating down CD's door.

But just because CD copied the the FN, who copied the Mauser, and didn't do a good job of executing it. Does this bring us back full circle to the 404 jeff was orgininally chambered in the 98, with modifications to the magazine and the follower? Which are rarer than hens teeth nowdays, and no parts or drawings available.



Damn, a 416 Rem on that action would be a cake walk, new barrel from Lothar Walther, change out the shotgun safety and stock it, brass and dies are cheaper

But its not a 404

Edit: maybe I will get lucky and ALF will chime in with some data out of that Muesum of his in SA. And Ray A has definately walked this walk before.

quote:

You can get the barrel action from Montana Rifle Co. However last time I check their 404 Jeffery barrel was .424. This may have changed.

Rusty,
I bought my barrel blank from MRC and it's .423 FWIW
I chambered it and fitted it to my 1999 mag action. No complaints here....

Vapogod and Rusty,

BTW I am not seeing the 404 listed on the Montana website. must be a non catalog item.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Vapogod and Rusty,

BTW I am not seeing the 404 listed on the Montana website. must be a non catalog item.

It's a custom from them.....I ordered the barrel and action separately.....I believe they can also fit and chamber it for you too. It's $50 just to rent the $^^&**^ reamer.

Vapodog,

I was talking with my smith today about this. Looked at the dimensions again, reread Ray A posts and this on a FN mauser can't be rocket science. Both my smith and I got to wondering why if the magazine is too narrow why one of two options wouldn't work. First would be wrap plate around the exterior then weld it all up and mill out the addition .060-.080" from the inside. Another thought is just get a 2" piece of tool steel and hog a new one out on the mill. I am certainly no master machinist, but I could tackle that. I don't have the FN action handy and this is something I need to get my mikes on, do some sketching, measuring and figurinng on paper. I also don't have a good drawing of the cartridge so I keep feeling I could be missing something basic. A cartridge case would help, I just don't want to buy 20 rounds of this brass on a maybe. All of the above assumptions are on 1 up and 3 down, and a 60% angle on the follower.

There are a couple of fallbacks on action it seems, and I got to admit a 416 would probably better serve my needs, better bullet availability, shoots flatter, but again its not a 404.

Have you got yours put together and shooting? have you found any 350-370 gr Spire points? Seems that would be on heck of a bear load with the right bullet.

Another option that I know I could do is have a custom reamer made, use the 416 Rem brass, necked up to a .423, I am actually suprised someone hasn't done one yet. But a big bore wildcat wasn't what a had in mind. Similar results could be got with 458 Win brass necked down to as you have previously suggested a .423 Taylor. But in fairness a 423 Vapodog should be what its called as you thought it up first. All of these a simpler paths I am sure, but they have one missing point they lack the history and prestige of the original.

I love the 404 Jeffery. I have at least one each in Winchester/pre-64 and classic, Mauser 98 and FN actions. I think the pre-64 was the easiest to make up. I could have just been lucky in that way. The Hoffman was the slickest but for iron sights only. I really like using a scope on mine.

I did dig up a dimensional drawing on this last night, its a start.

quote:

.416 box is not 100% the way to go unless you can find one with very thick wall to be milled away and still allow for the releaf slot on each side, and therein lies the problem, not enough metal to allow for those releaf cuts..

Does anyone know what these cuts Ray is talking about look like?

email sent.....

Lookat the photos I sent you then ask the guys at MRC about drop boxes for the 1999 and the 404 jeff.

The jeff works well in my 1999 mag length action as is...except for one little detail.....I rebated the cases and didn't open up the bolt face.

Hi,
Go for the Brno ZG 47 action! Simply the best "Mauser 98 action" ever made! The ZG 47 action is just a little bit longer than the original Mauser 98 action.


My .404 Rimless Nitro Express built on a ZG 47 action by Normas own gunsmith

Husky,

Nice rifle you should show us some close ups. Unfortunately the ZG-47 actions in the US are not to common. Our Canadian neighbors to the north have a lot better odds of finding them.

Vapodog,
Good to know they have changed it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Ok a thought, because its parts that are readily available what about a magnum FN action?

as far as I know the CD Zastava is a copy of that action.

interesting question, and I am certain you are correct. The fn magnum is not a larger action than a 98, it's cut internally. the "magnum mauser" is a brevix, and huge expensive

jeffe

What about the BBK-01 actions? 6 Down on a 375 H&H mag; length 3.85" personally I think its too big.

The BBK is a good action, my gunsmith is building one on a BBK for a friend of mine. I did mine on a M70 300RUM. It's a heck of a shooter w/ the exc. 380grNF. Mike @ NF also makes a 340gr (still waiting for a run) & RIP has used them a bit. The cheapest way to go is probably just buy the CZ. I would have if I hadn't already put this one together. Good luck w/ the project & welcome to the 404J club!

Hey Fred,
Is that the Safari stock?
Does your rifle have the extra recoil lug on the barrel?
Who's barrel and rib?
Did you stick with three down and the Williams bottom metal?
I'm sure I asked all these questions when we were on the old AR server, but I have slept and had a coffee break since then and can't remember what you told me.
Thanks,
Your rifle is how I want mine to turn out.
lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Hey Fred,
Is that the Safari stock?
Does your rifle have the extra recoil lug on the barrel?
Who's barrel and rib?
Did you stick with three down and the Williams bottom metal?
I'm sure I asked all these questions when we were on the old AR server, but I have slept and had a coffee break since then and can't remember what you told me.
Thanks,
Your rifle is how I want mine to turn out.
lawndart

Ditto!!!
How much does your rifle weigh? I am trying to get to the 8-9 lbs. area like the Model A Mauser rifles I have seen. Most of mine end up being too heavey for my taste. My last pre-64 custom ended up weighing 10+ pounds and I prefer a lighter carry rifle. Is that a Dakota Quater rib ?

lawndart & lb404, that is the original RUM stock. I had the forend shortened a bit & the cross bolts added, no extra lug on the bbl. The original bottom metal too. The bbl. is a #5 PacNor @ 23". That is a Dakota rib w/ a single standing rear & NECG flip up night front sight. The rifle weighs 10.25# w/ a Lup. 1.5x5 in Leup. QWR mounts & an 8oz merc. reducer in the butt. I carried it several days for 10-12miles in Moz. last fall, not too heavy when you bump a buff. in the thick stuff @ 20yds, it gets very nimble very quickly.
It's shot several sub MOA groups w/ the 380grNF, 400gr Barnes solids & 400gr Woodleigh softs. Everything I shot in Africa last fall fell to one bullet, even the buff. Total cost including buying the RUM was about $1800 + scope. I love mine!

quote:

Total cost including buying the RUM was about $1800 + scope. I love mine! thumb

I have considerable more in mine and it's on a 1999 MRC. However mine weights 8.6 pounds.....there is no scope.

vapo, mine weighs right @ 9.25# w/o scope & rings, take out the 8oz mr & it would match yours. By using the factory stock I saved quite a bit, & my smith comped a couple small things like the checkered bolt release & the rear sight blade. He also didn't charge me for a reamer as my buddy was having one built too. I know the MRC actions cost more than a used RUM, but they are nice. Only problem I have had was the bolt handle stripped it's keyway on the bolt & I had to have it silver soldered. That happend after about 100rds, just before I left for Moz. Good thing it happened here & not there.

Thanks for the info Fred.
I have the donor rifle and a reamer. I will pop for the Williams bottom metal just for foolish pride.

I will try the factory stock for a while. I can always get an Echols' legend or McMillan Sako hunter style down the road. The Dakota rib looks nice.

lawndart

Does the Echols Legend have the comb low for iron sights, or is it a bit higher for scope use?

Does anyone make a polymer stock with a low comb for iron sighted use?

The McMillian, WInchester Safari looks to be the right stock for extended bottom metal. Catalog lists it for the Model 70 only, so I would expect if I want it on the FN action I wanted to use, I would need to call them and special order it.

In truth I haven't sorted out the metal, and magazine to my satisfaction, and stock details are premature.

quote:

Does anyone make a polymer stock with a low comb for iron sighted use?

The Sako hunter style stock (which is suitable for Winchester actions) works well with both scopes and irons. I shoot my 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag both with and without scopes - no problem either way.

Allen Day could probably answer your question about the Legend stock best of all.

I have one of McMillan's Safari style stocks. They are definitely designed for scope use. I will likely put that 416 Rigby action back into the wood stock (the hogback!) and convert the McMillan Safari style stock rifle to a 338 Lapua Magnum.

lawndart

lawndart, I figure if I ever break the stock I'll have my smithy put a nice piece of wood on it & add the drop magazine if I can find one that works.
BTW, the factory stock works fine for iron sight use. It's right on @ 50m & groups about as well w/ irons as scope @ that distance.

If Mauser can make a .404 on a standard mauser action and Rigby can make a 416 Rigby on a std. Mauser action, and FN sold their nice FN commercial actions in .404 adn they worked slicker n snot, and a 100 or so years later they are still working, If this be so,then surly a competent gunsmith in the USA can do the same, after all I have heard many of you say that our smiths are the best ever...

Dennis Olson for one can do it, I know that for a fact, but it ain't cheap and its time consuming and requires tig welding and fitting and what not...the cut out inside the Mauser box is one of the problems, but most Wisner boxes have .065 sides and thats enough...

Is it worth it?, Personally I think it is to have a .404 on the Mauser or FN action as it was originally intended to be....

The alternative is a M-70 400 ultramag conversion or a Montana action for the 300 Ultra mag, they both work fine, but they are not a Mauser!

Ray,

I was hoping you would chime in on this. Can you describe the "the cut out inside the Mauser box is one of the problems" detail a little.

The FN is the route I really want to go, I have the action, I was thinking different bottom metal like Williams if is would work, but that is certainly not set in stone if its a issue.

schromf, I have a 404 Jeffery built on an FN magnum Mauser action that I would be willing to part with. I bought it with the intention of taking it to Africa for use on cape buffalo, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I purchased the rifle from a fellow AR member in 2003, and have dies, brass, bullets and shellholder...