Just curious as to the options out there for bigbore lever actions. Including the stipulationn they could take DG. So not the run of the mill 45-70 or 50-95 on an antique Winchester...

What are were the options over the years and currently?

My Miroku- made Winchesters, an 1895 .405 WCF and 1886 .45-90, have both taken African DG and a lot of other critters.
With modern ammo, both are very effective.

For those interested in details:
Winchester 1895 .405 300 grain NF at 2250 fps &
Winchester 1895 .405 400 grain Woodies at 2076 fps MV
For .458 caliber,
Winchester 1886 .45-90 450 grain Kodiak at 2150 fps.

Do the math and see how they qualify for DG.
Both have been there, done that.

How about a Browning 71 barreled to 450 Ackley?

That should have read 450/348 Imp.

I took a Browning Lever Action (BLR) in .450 Marlin and throated it out another .3 of an inch. This was the maximum I could get using WSM caliber magazines rather than the .450s. You might have to bend the lips in slightly to improve feed. This additional powder capacity, using QuickLoad data system, allowed me to increase pressure (the BLR is chambered for WSM cartridges) to a safe 58K psi. 400gr solids at close to 2400 fps gave me a sufficiently powerful load.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
I took a Browning Lever Action (BLR) in .450 Marlin and throated it out another .3 of an inch. This was the maximum I could get using WSM caliber magazines rather than the .450s. You might have to bend the lips in slightly to improve feed. This additional powder capacity, using QuickLoad data system, allowed me to increase pressure (the BLR is chambered for WSM cartridges) to a safe 58K psi. 400gr solids at close to 2400 fps gave me a sufficiently powerful load.

That sounds plenty enough for anything,how heavy is your gun? with that kind of recoil,can you shoot it well? keep it on target?
I like Levers,my best is a 475 Turnbull,a 450 Alaskan or a 416/348 improved on a win 71,I can put out about 4000 - 4200 ftlbs of energy out of any of these calibers,with the right bullets? think they would be good for most any game.

In my old Browning 1886, Many of the new 45-70 factory loads from CorBon or Buffalo bore are giving velocities (420 gr @ 2000 fps) which are Virtually identical what my son is getting from his 475 Turnbull

Yes, the hot 45-70 loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore, and CorBon make thing much easier than dealing with a 450 Marlin, 475 Turnbull, 457 Wild West, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Yes, the hot 45-70 loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore, and CorBon make thing much easier than dealing with a 450 Marlin, 475 Turnbull, 457 Wild West, etc.

... including the .50 Alaskan (.510-caliber), .50 B&M Alaskan (.500-caliber).

Doc M's .50 B&M Alaskan (Layne Simpson's Marlin 1895 load data) for a .500-cal/425-gr Cutting Edge FN Copper Solid:
1952 fps in an 18" barrel
2080 fps in a 22" barrel

That is a little faster and stouter bullet than the cast lead,
as well as bigger in diameter,
but hard cast lead FN is good enough, eh? As long as you do not drive them too fast.
Phil used a 9mm pocket pistol with cast lead to kill a bear, I heard.

A .500 S&W lever action carbine from Big Horn Armory, Model 89, would probably work too ...

A Brian Pearce load in an 18"-barreled M89 .500 S&W Magnum:
440-gr Cast Performance WFN-GC with 39.0 grains H110 >>> 1838 fps
That might be "Just right," for bear-defensive purposes, as Goldilocks said to the Three Bears,
with a revolver to match in her Ranger Rig.

Rip ...

The 45/70 load running 2000 fps with a 400 gr bullet is plenty for game I would think,but I would rather have one of my 450 Alaskan's in hand when faced with an angry critter,going 2150-2200 fps with a premium bullet like the Kodiak or the North fork 405,& my gun won't be cranked up with some max load either,my Turnbull gives me an easy 2000 fps with a 480 gr Woodleigh soft as well,my guns are Winchesters or Brownings,if you don't want to go the wildcat route? the 45-90 delivers as well,load some punch bullets at 2150

There is a gunsmith here in Queensland that has supposedly converted a few modern BLRs to .416Ruger.
I’ve yet to see one on the range and would like to see how they’d go (read see what rattles loose and falls off) in some of the rapid fire events in a BGRC shoot before committing to such a project.

quote:

Originally posted by GBE:
There is a gunsmith here in Queensland that has supposedly converted a few modern BLRs to .416Ruger.
I’ve yet to see one on the range and would like to see how they’d go (read see what rattles loose and falls off) in some of the rapid fire events in a BGRC shoot before committing to such a project.

I have a win 71 converted to a 416/348 improved,it puts out a 400 gr @2050-2150, my goal was to duplicate the 450/400NE,can probably push it a little faster but dont see the need.

A simple Marlin 1895 .45-70 Govt. with 22" barrel can get 400-grainers over 2000 fps with RELODER-7,
but three shots with that loosens every screw in the gun.
Not recommended.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A simple Marlin 1895 .45-70 Govt. with 22" barrel can get 400-grainers over 2000 fps with RELODER-7,
but three shots with that loosens every screw in the gun.
Not recommended.

Rip ...

Yup so if you want some top loads? Go with the Winchesters or the Brownings, there was a gent on here who hunted elephant with Buzz using a 50 Alaskan based on a Marlin, I think his handle was Yukon delta?he did kill his elephant but sold his gun & did not recommend it to anyone else, he mentioned tightening the screws every few shots.

The 50 alaskan, a modern 50-110 winchester or a 510 kodiak express will all throw a 500 or 535 grain bullet at 2000fps or better. You can get the punch bullet in a solid if you want too.
The comment on the Marlin shaking the screws loose is correct. Mine is a 50 alaskan on the cowboy version and the screws loosen after a shooting session. I suppose you could locktite them but I have never bothered.
The Browning or Winchester guns are stronger than the Marlin and can give you higher velocity. Frankly, a 500 grain at 2000 will kill anything you want with the proper bullet and placement.

I am taking a 50-110 Winchester for cape buffalo in August. I think it will out perform the 458 WM at close range if loaded hot. I will use CEB solids and Raptors in medium loads.
My 50-110 is a custom chamber for true .500 cal bullets just for fun.
Also, I think that folks are doing well with the 45-70 with good bullets at close range on DG. The old 458 WM factory loads were not much more than a heavy 45-70 with modern specialty bullets for killing power. I have used Swift A-frames, North Fork Cup Point and CEB solids in .375 cal on buffalo with complete success. The same level/quality of bullets in lever big bores will be the cat's meow. Get close and go for a heart shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
The old 458 WM factory loads were not much more than a heavy 45-70 with modern specialty bullets for killing power.

OK, that can only be said of defective .458 Win. ammo that had defective bullets with defective powder charges.

Some jokers claim that the short-throated .458 Lott is warp-drive levels ahead of the long-throated .458 Win. by virtue of only 0.300" of brass length.
That does not compute.
The .458 Win. can beat the .458 Lott at its own game, i.e., use in a long action:
Higher velocity at same pressure and same or longer COL with same bullet.
Yes, the .458 Win. wins.

The short-throated .45-70
that is also 0.390" shorter in brass than the long-throated .458 Win.,
is on impulse power compared to warp drive of the .458 Win.,
when both are loaded with optimum bullets and powders.

I'd like to have a .458 Win. BLR.
Thanks for the idea y'all,
especially prof242.

Rip ...

RIP. I agree. Brian

I've heard of a gunsmith in Ketchikan iirc that converted a BLR 300 win mag into 416 Taylor.
I think the BLR in 06 would make a great conversion to 400 Whelen.
A good friend has a 450/348 AI on a short tang Model 71 that I developed a 350 gr and a 400 gr load for. I was getting 2200 fps iirc with the 400 gr KBC flat nose bullets . pressures were mild. Or at least not very high. The barrel had been contoured with 2 small lumps just in front of the magazine tube to hold it in during recoil. I found that rifle to be very easy shooting. But at the time the smallest rifle I was shooting was the 338. And I was shooting my 416 Taylor and my 458 Win a lot. So I might be biased.
I don't know if the 50 Alaskan has much advantage IRL. A little more diameter, probable a bit less SD.
I do know that with the way that rifle was built. Pushing a 458 DIA 400 gr bullet @ 2200 fps wasn't straining anything. Which I think lends itself to longevity and reliability. It fed and extracted and ejected very smoothly and 100% reliably.
I want him to go kill a nice big bear with it. But unfortunately its a safe queen.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A simple Marlin 1895 .45-70 Govt. with 22" barrel can get 400-grainers over 2000 fps with RELODER-7,
but three shots with that loosens every screw in the gun.
Not recommended.

Rip ...

Yup so if you want some top loads? Go with the Winchesters or the Brownings, there was a gent on here who hunted elephant with Buzz using a 50 Alaskan based on a Marlin, I think his handle was Yukon delta?he did kill his elephant but sold his gun & did not recommend it to anyone else, he mentioned tightening the screws every few shots.

I guess there must be something wrong with my Marlin. I've shot a pretty fair amount of 400 grain bullets at around 2000 fps and none of the screws have backed out so far.

Cougarz, yes, but how many of your teeth have backed out?

quote:

but how many of your teeth have backed out?

What teeth....you mean tooth :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Cougarz, yes, but how many of your teeth have backed out?

I am glad sumbuddy gets it that this does not represent just "hillbilly."
It also represents smiling after teeth knocked out, i.e., a masochist.

Question: If you get 32 Kentuckians in one room ...
.
.
.
.
How many teeth do you have amongst them?
.
.
.
.
Answer: Odds are there will be a full set of teeth.
But there most likely will be less than 32 tattoos amongst them,
so overall, the tooth to tattoo ratio is greater than 1.0.
That is always a good thing, whether for an individual, or a mob.

Here is my next "Tooth Loosener" meant for use with .616-caliber/950-grain 20-gauge slugs:



Current scope meant only for use with the the light factory loads, 3" and 3.5" 20 Ga slugs.
Longer eye relief is needed for the 950-grainers.

Rip ...

There is the 475 Turnbull which is a proven thumper but it may be an expensive rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
How about a Browning 71 barreled to 450 Ackley?

that would be 450 alaskan - the ackley is a bit onger than a lott ...

had one, sold it, regretted ever since

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Cougarz, yes, but how many of your teeth have backed out?

I am glad sumbuddy gets it that this does not represent just "hillbilly."
It also represents smiling after teeth knocked out, i.e., a masochist.

Question: If you get 32 Kentuckians in one room ...
.
.
.
.
How many teeth do you have amongst them?
.
.
.
.
Answer: Odds are there will be a full set of teeth.
But there most likely will be less than 32 tattoos amongst them,
so overall, the tooth to tattoo ratio is greater than 1.0.
That is always a good thing, whether for an individual, or a mob.

Here is my next "Tooth Loosener" meant for use with .616-caliber/950-grain 20-gauge slugs:



Current scope meant only for use with the the light factory loads, 3" and 3.5" 20 Ga slugs.
Longer eye relief is needed for the 950-grainers.

Rip ...

Long ago Ft. Lewis had a deer season where you could only use either a shotgun or muzzleloader. Mostly I used my muzzleloader but one year I decided to buy a shotgun just for this hunt, an H&R break open 12 gauge much like the one above minus the brake & scope. After trying it with slugs I decided one season was enough.

signed: Toothless

Cougarz,

I agree, the 12 Ga was a bit much, with .730-cal/1400-grain lead slugs at 1800 fps, hence the 20 Ga.



Rip ...

BTT for details on .405 WCF and .45-90 loads.

From the ".458 Winchester Magnum from Heaven," thread, since it involves a lever action .450 Alaskan Winchester M71:

https://gunsmagazine.com/class...s-magazine-editions/

A cursory perusal of the Classic Issues of GUNS:
Earliest mention I found of the .458 Win. was by Colonel Charles Askins, our favorite "Unrepentant Sinner" of yore.

His article was entitled "HE LOOKED AS BIG AS A TANK"
in the October 1957 issue.
Charlie was a leftie.
He used a lever action, M71 Winchester, .450 Alaskan (.458/.348 WCF built by Harold Johnson himself) with unspecified 400-grain bullet
at alleged 2140 fps, for 4110 ft-lbs muzzle energy.
He loaned his right-handed .458 Win. M70 African to The General, his huntin' buddy, somewhere near Cambodia/Laos/Viet Nam ...

Askins started shooting at close range and after eight shots The General shot the gaur twice in the chest and once in the head, with the .458 Win.






Rip ...

For DG I would shoot the largest lever gun I could stand the recoil with, I see a lot of shooters with big bores that simply can not the handle the recoil of old betsy. We got one or two every year..A 200 gr.partition in a 30-06 in the heart or double lung, beats the hell out of a flinch and a 416 or whatever.

Ive found the big lever guns on the 71 and 86 actions tend to kick like a mule. I liked my 86 in the 45-90 but I shot the 350 gr. Hornady, its a good bullet, It was tolarable..I never shot DG with it, but a friend of mine did and he was satisfied but said they ran a bit far, but sometime they do that with any caliber, no matter how big a gun you use. At some point big calibers become penis envy..Also return to battery is important. especially with the larger bores and DG IMO and its never referred to in these forums..Give it some thougt. Set up a target at 25 or 50 yards and see how fast you can shoot with reasonable accuracy.

OK, here's one I've been thinking about for a while:

Start with BLR in 450 Marlin.
Rechamber for 458 WSM
Replace bolt head with 300 WSM bolt head
Replace magazine with 300 WSM magazine

You now have a 7 lb 458 WSM. Or do you? I don't have a 450 Marlin or 300 WSM to examine, so I'm not sure if the above mods will work.

Comments???

Rip, thanks for posting about Askins’ lever-action gaur! Really cool to read about!

"From a long time ago in a place far, far away":


The belted case is a 458 Win. Fits nicely in the "real big bore".



45-70 on the left.





5500 ft/lbs. Verified by Mr Oehler and the 100 pound test sled.

WoodHunter,
Thanks for the pix and post, but do you mind providing a little more information?
1. What caliber is the "real big bore"?

2.Is that a 45-90 beside the 45-70?

What cartridge generated 5500 pounds feet energy?

Originally posted by crshelton


WoodHunter,


Thanks for the pix and post, but do you mind providing a little more information?
1. What caliber is the "real big bore"?

50

2.Is that a 45-90 beside the 45-70?

No, a shortened 500 Nitro.


Lever gun on the left shoots the 45-70. On the right shoots the 50.

What cartridge generated 5500 pounds feet energy? The 50


A weird project I got wrapped up in a long time ago when I was pretty dumb.

50 on top.

I even made bronze solids for it using 50 BMG bullets, cut off, grooves turned, and reversed along the lines of Howard Johnson's work.
The solids are the 2 flat nose bullets in front of the Enfield action, just below the BMG bullet.

Thank you for the explanation.

Your 50 cal levergun should put down any critter that I have seen walking the planet.
You also put a sensible recoil pad on it.

Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock. It is a heavy rifle.

What is different about this shortened 500 NE case as compared to a 50-110? did you consider doing this on a 71 or 1886? very interesting what you did.