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gunslinger55, With a long enough bullet, like the 500-gr TSX above, you can load it longer in the SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN than can be loaded into a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott, where the bolt will not close due to jamming of ogive into the lands of the short throated SAAMI .458 Lott. See my reply to Wildcatter at bottom of previous page. And yes, there is plenty of seating depth on that 500-grain TSX to solidly crimp in the last groove/cannelure with the .458 WIN at 3.780" COL. Plenty of flat base depth in the case neck remains. Too bad that long monometal bullet is really too long to be recommended for terminal capability in game, though it is a great target bullet, very accurate in the .458 WIN. No good even in the .460 WBY for other than accuracy at targets.  Rip ... | |||
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As I say, my friends, I give up when arguing with certain self-appointed and self-esteemed “experts.” It is one of my many weaknesses. But I do admire your perseverance. And your patience. Especially and particularly your patience. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Impossible, RIP. Good luck with your experiments. I’ve lost interest in this discussion. I feel like I’m arguing sensible tax cuts with a California liberal. Only took 3 exchanges to get me there. I’ll start my own thread so as not to sully RIP’s 200 page monstrosity.  RC And to quote the great Ray Atkinson: “ Getting that [sic: logic] thru some of the thick skulls around here is a waste of time,it just ain't gonna happen!” Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well, and practice, practice, practice. | |||
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Hear ye, hear ye: I compared Wildcatter's "agree to disagree" cop out to the politics of the U.S. Dimmocritic party, first on the other thread. Here it is again: RIP: So, the .458 WIN wins by the TRUTH. To agree to disagree is to say that a lie is OK for one or the other party or that neither one of them knows what the hell they are talking about. That is too much like the politics of the U.S. Dimmocritic Party. Anybody got a copyright on that term or do I have a chance at it ? And now he compares me to a California liberal like Nancy Pooploosey ! Hard to top that one for an insult. Some people just cannot handle the truth. Some people just cannot understand physics. MR usually mutually inclusive groups of people. Rip ... | |||
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 Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well, and practice, practice, practice. | |||
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Sleep on the physics of this: Manson Lott reamer and Clymer WIN reamer:   Physics does not lie. Rip ... | |||
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Does longer bullet for weight like the 500 grain TSX affect/ increase Sectional Density due to the longer length? | |||
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All that matters in the static, arbitrarily, artificially defined sectional density of a bullet is its weight and its diameter. Length has nothing to do with it. It is calculated by dividing the weight of the bullet in pounds by the square of the diameter of the bullet in inches, expressed as a unitless ratio: Since 7000 grains make a pound: SD of .458"/ 500-grainer = (500/7000)/(.458)(.458) = 0.341 Quick and easy to calculate. It is proportional to reality. Calculated as if for a square bullet cross section, it is directly proportional to the SD of a bullet with round cross section of same diameter as the width of the side of the square bullet base. Rip ... | |||
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Thank you RIP. | |||
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I shot plenty of buff in Australia with the 500gr TSX. Most went right through although I did recover a couple and one cup point solid woodleigh. All worked perfect. How is it too long?
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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gunslinger55, Glad to hear that they work better on water buffalo than water buckets ! Maybe they get expanded and shortened faster on the buffalo than the bucket. I am surprised that you recovered a Woodleigh Hydro on buffalo. That most of your 500-gr TSX exited is also surprising. I would expect most of your TSX to not exit. I have shot a bison with .500 A2 and 570-grain XLC, reliably stopping on broadside chest at 50 yards (second shot post mortem at 25 yards did same), Yet 570-grain GSC FN zipped through at least 8 feet of bison from stern to stem, at 50 yards and 25 yards, exited, from tail to throat. All of those .500 A2 570-grainers were going about 2400 fps. What is too long for a .458-caliber bullet? I do not know. I have not shot game with a .458/ 500-gr TSX. Apparently these are not too long, as no bad reports on game or test media: 480-grain Woodleigh HYDRO: That is 1.622" with feed cap (Woodleigh manual), feed cap disintegrates on impact, 1.473" without cap (my measurement). 550-gr Woodleigh RN SN: 1.414" 550-gr Woodleigh FMJ: 1.521" Rip ... | |||
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At the risk of starting a debate which I have no empirical data for; I would not doubt that a number of the 500 tsx would be slightly expanding and then turning over exiting butt first. Our friend Alf has presented quite a lot of data that shows this to be probable. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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That is good, a very good explanation. So most of the 500-gr TSX bullets tumbled and exited base first. The buffalo might have died anyway.  The few that expanded beautifully were recovered from dead buffalo. As Forrest Gump once said, "... It happens" and the phrase "$#it happens" was born. Bubba will continue shortening the .458"/1.67" 500-grain TSX to 480-grain "TS-improved-X" that are 1.47" long, aka the .458"/1.47"/ 480-gr "TSIX" or "T6" bullet. Rip ... | |||
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The ones I recovered I believe were not rotated in the buffalo. The cup point was a Texas heart shot on a big bull that went all the way to the sternum. Can’t ask for better than that. Ask another Arizona writer about that fun follow up I got pics of the bullets if you want me to send then to someone to post I can’t seem to here. They are impressive White Mountains Arizona | |||
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The ones I recovered I believe were not rotated in the buffalo. That could well be. If they expanded enough to create weight forward of the middle of the remaining shank, they will act as they should as an expanding bullet should and you found them in that position. If they don't rapidly expand and make that bullet balance forward quickly, then they are highly likely to turn over and either continue to tumble or balance again butt forward. If they balance butt forward they will likely exit with a caliber'ish size hole. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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gunslinger55, I will send you a PM about getting your pictures of recovered .458 bullets for posting. Ditto Fury01 on the recovered TSX bullets that mushroomed nicely and did not exit, dumped all their energy inside the buffalo. If it wobbled too much before expanding enough, it could flip, exit like an FN solid, and dump energy on the landscape. Rip ... | |||
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In evaluating the bullets again I’d say the 500 grain tsx are about as good as it gets for expanding. The solids were brutal in penatration with minimal deformation although there is some. They had the plastic cap for feeding. The 300 gr A frame.375s didn’t look very good. Well one was a good mushroom one hit bone and really deformed. I will weigh the remnants. Guessing the 375 lost a lot and the 458s none White Mountains Arizona | |||
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One petal broke off a tsx but was recovered with bullet not sure if it broke off after recovery or not. In any case it was recovered and in pic White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Got the pics, will get them up later today. Thanks to gunslinger 55. Amazingly, Federal loaded a 500-gr HYDRO in factory .458 Lott ammo. As of 2014 Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual, the 480-gr Hydro was heaviest listed for .458-caliber loads. Geoff McDonald mentioned the .458/ 480-gr HYDRO as the first HYDRO he ever made, tested on feral camel, excellent. Could Federal have had a special run of 500-gr HYDRO made that nobody else likes nowadays ? Rip ... | |||
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I imagine the difference between the two is negligible White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Which means they are great lol White Mountains Arizona | |||
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gunslinger55's bullet photos, recovered from Australian buffalo culling in which he used a .458 Lott with 500-gr Barnes TSX bullets at 2250 fps MV and a brass cup-point solid with a plastic feed cap (aka Woodleigh HYDRO) from a Federal factory load. The HYDRO is a nominal 500-grainer at 2200 fps MV if I read correctly. AnotherArizonaWriter accompanied hin and used a .375 H&H with 300-grain softs that might be of Swift brand.  The three TSX 500-grainers:       The two HYDROs:       500-grain TSX shortening compared to "500"-gr HYDRO:  Two of the .375/ 300-grain softs looking suspiciously like Swift A-Frames:     gunslinger55 and AAW might comment on the impact ranges for these bullets, and did more TSX bullets pass through than did not ? I still think a .458"/ 480-grain HYDRO at 2300 fps would be better than a .458"/ 500-gr HYDRO at 2200 fps. Rip ... | |||
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Thanks for posting and sorry for the typo. The 500 gr hydros were rated at 2300 FPS But my .458 is cut down to 22” so I lose some velocity. More so on the hydros than the tsx apparently if I remember correctly. (2250 for tsx and like 2190 for hydros)Personally I prefer shorter barrels and as for effectiness no complaints there. Impact ranges were less than 100 in all cases and 25-75 in a lot of cases. So short range. Since we recovered all the meat for Joe’s crocodile farm we got the bullets that were not pass throughs. I think I shot around 40 rounds and I recovered 5. Mostly from Texas heart shots or straight on chest shots. They would go 5+ feet I reckon of penetration. Basically the whole length of a buffalo. Joe was intially unimpressed by my caliber choice and made some comments about other clients shooting ability with .458s. Luckily I am a shooter and practice quite a bit and was able to deliver the goods including head shots and some impressive drops with my rifle. I used a Swarovski z6-I 1-6 EE scope which is the best imho. Joe was converted and said he wanted a .458 now lol. AAW used Joe’s .375. AAW is a good shot as well but he was suffering from a freak injury. I’m sure he will chime in at some point. Interesting side story on my gun. It was a cz550 .458 wm I bought used little use for $600. I knew it would make a good rifle so the first thing I did with that huge action was ream it to .458 Lott. Makes sense right? Then I was going on a buffalo hunt with McMillan rifles and I sent it in to american hunting rifles for the full treatment. Cut to 22” barrel band sights and sling mount synthetic stock trigger etc. turned out really nice only we were going to test McMillan safari rifles so I had to use their rifles if I wanted to get in movie lol. Long story there but needless to say I wish I brought mine.... Any how my rifle was about 8 1/2 lbs. upon shooting it practicing (a Lott) the gun started to self destruct. The front barrel band was moving forward and the recoil pad ripped off the stock. Sent it back and was repaired and recoil reducer put in stock adding one pound. Gun was much more pleasant to shoot. On the last day of hunt I was noticed my barrel band was creeping forward as well. When I got home I sent it in again and was told it will never happen again lol hope not! Good indication of the severity of recoil especially if you put a lot of rounds through it. Apparently that was a first for AHR. Anyhow if I wanted one all around DG Rifle this would probably be it holding 5 down and good scope. Oh and no issues with the scope using Alaska arms mounts. Anyhow that’s my .458 story...... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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The .375 bullets were Swift, but IIRC the rifle was chambered for .375 JRS and I was shooting 375 H&H loads, so there was probably some velocity loss. I was going to shoot a .458 Wim Mag just because I had no hunting experience, but like Gunslinger said, Joe has an aversion to bigger guns. This was my second hunt with a camp rifle. Since I was visiting friends in OZ before the hunt, it was really impossible to bring my own rifle. That was disappointing. | |||
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I think Joe was converted at the end...... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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gunslinger55, Welcome. It was a great pleasure to post the photos, most interesting to see the .458/ 500-gr TSX results from a lot of water buffalo culled.
It was interesting that both of the HYDROs weighed exactly same on recovery: 493.6 grains, probably same as before fired. (I found that the plastic feed cap weighs 5.6 grains. The nominal "480-gr" HYDRO weighed 473.1 grains, my sample.) Both of your recovered 500-gr HYDROs had some deformation of the meplat plane and even a bend in the entire length of the bullet. Banana shape is starting to become obvious in one of them. They likely hit "big" bone early on, and tumbled after that, otherwise should have exited on the Texas Heart Shots most of the time. A high percentage of pass-throughs on broadside shots with the TSX suggests that the ones that were recovered mushroomed nicely, but the ones not recovered might not have been so picture-perfect, even if the buffalo died promptly, like Fury01 and I were saying above. The most spectacular bullet failure I ever had was on a cow moose. The old .458/ 500-gr Hornady RNSP disintegrated inside her and broke three ribs on the offside. She dropped dead in an instant and made about 600 pounds of delicious meat. Rip ... | |||
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A 480-grain Hydro at 2300 fps has a little more momentum than a 500-grain Hydro at 2200 fps. Just a little bit more, but being shorter would make it more stable, for a couple of reasons I can think of.  Rip ... | |||
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Many will say that the petals do not break off of the TSX except when it flips. The one recovered 500-gr TSX that lost a petal is also the one with most angulated mushroom. It must have flipped. The 500-gr TSX bullets that exited might have flipped early after impact. The one that lost a petal flipped late. With all these monometal copper or brass or gilding metal .458 bullets one would do well to avoid 500-gr and heavier bullets. Use more velocity, less BOL. Denser bullet material is needed if you must use a 500-gr or heavier bullet. Hey, the .458 WIN beats the .458 Lott with any bullet of 400-gr or greater weight. Rip ... | |||
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Lol Don’t think any bullets “flipped” They went straight as an arrow as far as I could tell I pulled them out of the buffalo and none were anything less than straight line penetration. even after smashing through bone. Continue on with you mission to debunk the performance of this combination but I won’t be trading it in for a .458 win mag anytime soon. Carry on.... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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gunslinger55, A bit naive there. A bullet may continue on course while tumbling, enlarging the wound channel during the side-on travel, and then settle down to base first travel, acting like an FN solid. Copper petal remnants trail behind and may break off, or act like a drag'chute if they remain attached. The brass monometal petals usually break off clean and flush with bullet diameter on impact and the remnant bullet makes a much better FN solid after it flips. It is both harder and has no drag'chute to drogue it. I am happy that you are happy with the 500-grain TSX performance on buffalo. Maybe I could be too if I loaded it to 2342 fps MV and 3.780" COL in a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN CZ 550 Magnum, though that is something that no SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott can do. That long tom bullet can go faster and with lower pressure in the SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN than it can in the SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott.  The 500-grain TSX is a bugholer at 2250 fps in my .458 WIN rifle, extremely accurate. Not much enlarged grouping at 2342 fps. Might be better to use the faster load for hunting, as it would be more dependable on initial expansion, moving CG forward, so less likely to flip and exit the buffalo. As for the .458/ "500-gr" HYDRO: I see why Woodleigh does not offer it to handloaders, must be custom run for Federal to use in servicing the factory-ammo users. They are the sort who would naturally think a 500-gr HYDRO has got to be better than a 480-gr HYDRO. Nope, .458/ "480"-grain HYDRO bullets at +2300 fps would not be recovered with slight bends in them so often from mere 1-ton bovines.  Rip ... | |||
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I don't think the Lott is for everyone; I know I don't want to shoot one without a brake, but Gunslinger handles the big guns quite well. For me, the .416 is perfect. Kills anything that walks and shoots flat enough that I don't feel compromised if I need to stretch the range a bit. | |||
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I think it’s interesting that Kynoch is Lodi g a 480hr bullet in the Lott. Not sure why I think it’s interesting, but it is to me. The claimed FPS is 2299. I bet it’s closer to the 480@2150 450 NE load. Which...oh, never mind, you know what I’m going to say... ;-) | |||
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   The 500-gr HYDRO has 6 grooves. The 480-gr HYDRO has 5 grooves.  | |||
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So much theory here. The only recovered ones were full length head on or tail first shots. So you think a tumbling bullet can penetrate that far? Mines not a Saami chambered Lott either. The bullets were not recovered tail first iirc. How does more velocity stabilize the bullet more? Seems like I hear it both ways all the time. In any case your crusade to tell everyone how superior your custom loaded modified .458 wm is pretty funny. Sure it probably does what you said but how about load a long Lott case and stuff more powder in it? What’s the real point? The thing kills just fine. Seems a bit desperate at times the lengths one goes to try and convince people how right they are... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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24” velocity is 2300 with the federal 500 hydro which I believe as I hit 2250 in 22”
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I agree the .416 rem works great I used that on my first buffalo hunt. Probably the best all arounder. If we want to talk big bores I can’t wait to hunt with my 505 makes a .458 wm look like a pipsqueak QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter: I don't think the Lott is for everyone; I know I don't want to shoot one without a brake, but Gunslinger handles the big guns quite well. For me, the .416 is perfect. Kills anything that walks and shoots flat enough that I don't feel compromised if I need to stretch the range a bit.[/QUOTE] White Mountains Arizona | |||
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So what happens when you take your custom loaded .458 wm “long” halfway around the world and your ammo doesn’t show up? Been there done that. Doubt you are going to find your custom .458 long super duper mag in any camps or gun stores. But I’ll bet a 12 pack I can find .458 Lott or .458 WM. Now which would you rather have? I’m good with both infact I can shoot the win mag out of my Lott. Works great. Now that’s what I call versatility and huntability. And kills big things quite well White Mountains Arizona | |||
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The pics of the “bananaing” hydros seems to be photo enhanced somewhat as it is really quite small. Could it be too much velocity hitting bone and deforming slightly while penetrating 6 feet of buffalo? Perhaps.... White Mountains Arizona | |||
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And finally don’t flat point bullet penetrate great because of their stability? Doesn’t matter how long it heavy it’s the fact that the weight is equally spaced before and after the center of gravity of the bullet. It’s the tapered ogive nose where the weight is all behind the CG that causes it to swap ends. Hence the “magic” of flat point lever action bullets. The 500 hydro is a flat point bullet. The 500 TSX mushroomed into a flat point bullet with a slightly larger frontal area. I did not see any evidence that they all did not work to great effect. And quite accurate. Head shots were spectacular White Mountains Arizona | |||
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And the .458 WIN-V-3.4"-3.8" does it even better, except for the really light bullets and birdshot, which are not even considered for use in killing big things. Rip ... | |||
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