Opinions please

25 July 2009, 20:09

ScottS

Opinions please

Would a 416 Ruger (M77 Hawkeye) be too much rifle for a 15 year old girl's first buffalo rig? What do you think?

Thanks

25 July 2009, 20:13

shootaway

yes

25 July 2009, 20:37

jeffeosso

Could be does she shoot much? Dave has pics of first timers to shoot his 470 ..

is it a bison shoot? your 405 would be easier on her

25 July 2009, 20:41

Oregon45

Loaded down to 2000fps with a 400 gr bullet it would be fine, particularly with that wide, soft, Hogue stock that comes from the factory.

25 July 2009, 21:17

ScottS

Jeff,

The 405 is long gone. She shoots the 458 Win mag pretty well, and actually that is what she wants. I was thinking that the 416 Ruger might be a bit more versatile while at the same time offering a little less recoil, or at least no more than the 458 Winnie. She wants to shoot water buff and bison, but water buff most.

I guess the question really is how does a 416 Ruger's recoil compare to a 458 Winnie?

Oregon45, that is a descent practice idea, but for water buff she will need to drive the 400 at better than 2200 fps to get acceptable penetration.

26 July 2009, 09:15

Big Bore Boar Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeff,

The 405 is long gone. She shoots the 458 Win mag pretty well, and actually that is what she wants. I was thinking that the 416 Ruger might be a bit more versatile while at the same time offering a little less recoil, or at least no more than the 458 Winnie. She wants to shoot water buff and bison, but water buff most.

I guess the question really is how does a 416 Ruger's recoil compare to a 458 Winnie?

Oregon45, that is a descent practice idea, but for water buff she will need to drive the 400 at better than 2200 fps to get acceptable penetration.

If she can handle a winnie with no brake, she will be able to shoot a 416. But it begs the question, why not take the winnie?

John

26 July 2009, 17:06

ScottS

John,

quote:
If she can handle a winnie with no brake, she will be able to shoot a 416. But it begs the question, why not take the winnie?

Thanks for that. The answer to your question is not as simple as it would seem to be. Firstly, the 458 is mine and is a project in the works. Currently it sports the OEM laminated stock which has been butchered to allow shooting. The LOP of this butchered stock falls between mine and her's (too short for me too long for her). The original thought, and one which may still come to pass, was to simply finish the 458 project (new stock for me) and modify the laminated stock so that it would work better for her and then let her use the 458 with this modified (albeit butt ugly) laminated Ruger stock. In the meantime my twisted mind (as my wife would say) has come up with the idea of the 416 Ruger, hence my purpose for the creation of this thread.

BTW, yesterday I took her to Cabela's where she tried on several rifles (CZ550 Magnum, Weatherby MkV, Colt Sauer, Remington, Ruger No1, and Ruger Hawkeye African) and decided she really really likes the Ruger Hawkeye African. The problem being now for the 416 Ruger idea that Ruger has not begun producing the Hawkeye African in 416 Ruger (I was told only the Alaskan is avaiable at present) and she, like me, seems to be only interested in walnut (although she expressed great interest in Bubinga even though as she put it "it is heavy as hell" aka Colt Sauer) and blued steel.

I hope that answers your question.

26 July 2009, 19:17

Bill/Oregon

Scott: Whatever the rifle solution, I think you are doing a hell of a fine job raising your daughter!

26 July 2009, 21:16

ScottS

Bill/Oregon,

Thank you. There is another rifle option, but one which may require significant negotiating with another third party. This option would put a 450 Ackley mag in the safe and she would get the 458 Winnie (this is actually my preferred option).

26 July 2009, 21:56

Biebs

Scott, The 450 Ackley Mag is a \great round. If Win had originally used the full-house case, there never would have needed to be the "new" 458, or the Lott. But the action length was, of course, the goal, with the resulting ability for use of the shorter action. I have a Griffin & Howe 450 Ackley and it's a great DG cannon.

26 July 2009, 22:59

Dave Bush

Unless she is a particularly experienced shooter or of unusually large stature, I think a .416 Ruger is way too much gun for a 15 year old girl. For god sakes, buy her a CZ in 9.3X62 and put a good scope on it. She will shoot it better and it will be way easier for her to carry. The fact that you have to even ask this question tells me you already know the answer.

26 July 2009, 23:07

M 98

For water buff why do you need a 458/416...a 06 with 200 gn NORTH FORKS or TSX is ample
DANIEL

26 July 2009, 23:16

Sid Post

I'm not a 15 year old girl and would be hard pressed not to carry a 9.3x62 CZ rifle. Good shot placement with a lesser but adequate cannon will get the job done without excessive punishment to the shooter.

26 July 2009, 23:47

Low Wall

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Oregon45, that is a descent practice idea, but for water buff she will need to drive the 400 at better than 2200 fps to get acceptable penetration.

Scott
Where the heck you get the idea that a 400 @ 2000 fps won't penetrate to the vitals and on thru if you make the proper shot?

27 July 2009, 00:05

ScottS

Gentlemen,
I appreciate the comments. What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

27 July 2009, 00:09

Big Bore Boar Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:

Thanks for that. The answer to your question is not as simple as it would seem to be. Firstly, the 458 is mine and is a project in the works. Currently it sports the OEM laminated stock which has been butchered to allow shooting. The LOP of this butchered stock falls between mine and her's (too short for me too long for her). The original thought, and one which may still come to pass, was to simply finish the 458 project (new stock for me) and modify the laminated stock so that it would work better for her and then let her use the 458 with this modified (albeit butt ugly) laminated Ruger stock. In the meantime my twisted mind (as my wife would say) has come up with the idea of the 416 Ruger, hence my purpose for the creation of this thread.

BTW, yesterday I took her to Cabela's where she tried on several rifles (CZ550 Magnum, Weatherby MkV, Colt Sauer, Remington, Ruger No1, and Ruger Hawkeye African) and decided she really really likes the Ruger Hawkeye African. The problem being now for the 416 Ruger idea that Ruger has not begun producing the Hawkeye African in 416 Ruger (I was told only the Alaskan is avaiable at present) and she, like me, seems to be only interested in walnut (although she expressed great interest in Bubinga even though as she put it "it is heavy as hell" aka Colt Sauer) and blued steel.

I hope that answers your question.

Here ya go, you cut the stock down to fit her, then tell your wife it is inadequate for you now and either get a brand new AAA claro walnut job, or a new rifle for you!

In reality, a 338win would take either critter real well. My wife will be doing a bison hunt in 2010, her choice of rifle was 450/400 in a #1 Ruger. Also pretty good for experienced female shooters. You can also look towards a hot loaded 45/70, it is the classic buffalo cartridge anyways.

The 416's are pretty versatile on African game, able to do PG and a bang-up job on buff, hippo, rhino (like thats gonna happen), lion, and even elephant. In the USA it is ideal for the big bears. Unless she already has a collection of rifles, it would be hard to beat a 338 win as a one gun do it all critter getter for North America and African plains game.

Nothing wrong with the 416 ruger, despite the fact I have a new RSM in 416 rigby, one of the Alaskans in 416 looks mighty appealing.

John

27 July 2009, 00:19

Big Bore Boar Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Gentlemen,
I appreciate the comments. What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

Check this site out:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/preparing_bison_hunt.htm

It will give you some basic info.

John

27 July 2009, 01:02

ScottS

Big Bore Boar Hunter,

Thank you for the info. A gentleman on another website, and who I have actually met recently due to his close proximity to my residence (idiotic fancy talk, eh) informed me that the 338 Winnie in his experience plain sucked as a buffalo/bison round. He stated it took surgical precision accuracy (not realistic in the field no matter who you are) and a good bit of luck besides to bring down a buffalo/bison quickly and cleanly with anything short of a central nervous system hit. In my experience central nervous system hits are easier said than done.

Sounds to me like your wife has made an outstanding, and should I say traditional British, choice for buffalo/bison rifle. My daughter tried on one of those Ruger No. 1s yesterday in 450/400 3" and really liked it (I believe she liked it more than the Hawkeye) but wants a bolt action not single shot (guess she is tired of her Encore).

27 July 2009, 01:07

dogcat

Yes, go with a .375 H&*H that fits her frame and load it down.

27 July 2009, 01:09

Dr. Lou

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Unless she is a particularly experienced shooter or of unusually large stature, I think a .416 Ruger is way too much gun for a 15 year old girl. For god sakes, buy her a CZ in 9.3X62 and put a good scope on it. She will shoot it better and it will be way easier for her to carry. The fact that you have to even ask this question tells me you already know the answer.

+1

28 July 2009, 05:58

ScottS

quote:
What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

No one is going to answer this question?

28 July 2009, 06:22

mstarling

ScottS,

If the young lady can handle a .458 Winny without a brake, she'll be fine with a moderately loaded .416 Ruger.

Personally, given the choice between a 30-06 and a .416 with 400s loaded to 2000-2100 fps ... I'd take the .416 (given a good bullet). I too will be interested in the responses of others.

+1 on the GREAT job with the young lady!!!

28 July 2009, 07:38

ScottS

Mike,

Thanks for the comments. I don't think I will get any answers to this question though.

quote:
What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

I only ask because the last thing I want to do is take a new hunter out and have them experience a long drawn out kill due to the use of an inadequate cartridge or load for the particular animal being hunted.

28 July 2009, 07:48

shootaway

Why not a 375?

28 July 2009, 09:28

Big Bore Boar Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Big Bore Boar Hunter,

Thank you for the info. A gentleman on another website, and who I have actually met recently due to his close proximity to my residence (idiotic fancy talk, eh) informed me that the 338 Winnie in his experience plain sucked as a buffalo/bison round. He stated it took surgical precision accuracy (not realistic in the field no matter who you are) and a good bit of luck besides to bring down a buffalo/bison quickly and cleanly with anything short of a central nervous system hit. In my experience central nervous system hits are easier said than done.

Sounds to me like your wife has made an outstanding, and should I say traditional British, choice for buffalo/bison rifle. My daughter tried on one of those Ruger No. 1s yesterday in 450/400 3" and really liked it (I believe she liked it more than the Hawkeye) but wants a bolt action not single shot (guess she is tired of her Encore).

The 338 will split the skull on a brain shot on a buff without much fuss. Most shots into the boiler room are tough and will require few shots no matter the rifle. A lot of guides suggest an atlas joint shot (where spine meets skull). Surgical precision is a relative term, if you can hit a 3" circle at 50 yds you have enough precision to take out the spine. The hard part is locating it in all that buffalo.

John

28 July 2009, 10:41

gumboot458

I find myself in a place where I completly agree with Shootaway ........

.
.

28 July 2009, 11:09

RyanB

[url]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/ScottZagger/079.jpg?t=1248761198[/img]

5-4, 120 pounds, shooting a .375 with 300gr TSXs. She stayed upright and liked it. I was concerned that the scope would hit her but it was fine. Her first medium bore... largest rifle she'd shot prior was a .223. She had something to prove I guess.

Did I mention that under those jeans are four inch heels?

28 July 2009, 11:10

RyanB

[url]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/ScottZagger/079.jpg?t=1248761198[/img]

5-4, 120 pounds, shooting a .375 with 300gr TSXs. She stayed upright and liked it. Did I mention that under those jeans are four inch heels?

I'd just go for a .375.

28 July 2009, 15:41

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
I find myself in a place where I completly agree with Shootaway ........
.
.

I knew you would all wisen up sooner or later!

29 July 2009, 03:02

ScottS

quote:
The 338 will split the skull on a brain shot on a buff without much fuss.

I had no idea that a 338 could do that! I cannot imagine what the 458 would do then. Thanks for that bit of comprehension, changes the thought process a bit perhaps.

29 July 2009, 06:37

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Gentlemen,
I appreciate the comments. What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

I would be concerned about the relatively slow velocity of the 400-grain giving adequate expansion. A fellow shooter, on my right at our range, was shooting a 416 Rem loaded with 400-grain Hornady Interbonds at 2200 fps for black bear and moose hunting. I was shooting my Ruger No.1, 45-70 Improved (long-throated)using 350gr TSX's at 2380 fps. A day or so later I was alone at the range again. I dug out a couple of those 400gr Interbonds from the 100 yd target backstop (sand, gravel, rocks, earth and millions of fragments of sharpnel). One was bent and the other looked like it had just come from Hornady except for engraved rifling on the jacket. Neither had expanded.

On the other hand, I dug out two of the 350 TSX's and they were perfectly expanded (one lost a petal)and retained 97% of their initial weight. I think whatever you decide - and it's your choice in concert with your daughter - the bullet must give full expansion while retaining 90 to 95% of it's weight.

Sounds like an exciting time for you both! Enjoy it!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

29 July 2009, 06:48

Big Bore Boar Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
quote:
The 338 will split the skull on a brain shot on a buff without much fuss.

I had no idea that a 338 could do that! I cannot imagine what the 458 would do then. Thanks for that bit of comprehension, changes the thought process a bit perhaps.

One caveat, from the side yes, front, prolly not. The 458 can hit from the front, or can penetrate from behind and exit the front. The 458 can take out both shoulders and everything in between. The biggest key is to hit the right spot, even a 30-06 can take out a buffalo on a spine/atlas shot.

John

29 July 2009, 10:07

gumboot458

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
I find myself in a place where I completly agree with Shootaway ........
.
.
I knew you would all wisen up sooner or later!

.
.
.
.

29 July 2009, 20:30

DuggaBoye

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Gentlemen,
I appreciate the comments. What would be proper shot placement on a water buffalo to ensure that a 30-06 or a slow 416 (2000 fps 400gr) load would provide complete pass through while at the same time destroy enough of the vitals to provide a quick clean kill?

Complete pass-through is over-rated, plain and simple.

Blow open the ventricles of the heart ,the Buffalo dies.

While not as dramatic as breaking both front shoulders and severing the spine, destroyed hearts stop the biggest Buff,even if they run, they die.

Place a bullet into the brain the Buffalo dies.

400gr. @ 2000 with proper projectiles has and will continue to kill anything she/you/ or I might hunt.

The .405 Win with 400gr @ 2000 to 2050 is a hammer, as is the 450/400 @ 2000 to 2080 etc,etc,.

215gr. 303's and 220gr. 30-40 Krag and .30-06 rounds have killed every manner of game animal on this planet.

The 30-40 Krag and .303 have storied reputations at their moderate velocity.
(And, they have also worked well for me.)

As to your original query:
If she wants her own rifle, you can afford it and SWMBO approves; get her the Hawkeye, if her heart is set on it.
She will adapt and learn to shoot it, if the will is there ,she will find the way to manage and master the tool.

29 July 2009, 23:09

eurocentric

Yes it is, although the .416 Alaskan feels and handles better than the "Hawkeye" Model used on the .375.

quote:
Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a 416 Ruger (M77 Hawkeye) be too much rifle for a 15 year old girl's first buffalo rig? What do you think?

Thanks

29 July 2009, 23:29

boom stick

I wonder if there is a way to add a mercury recoil reducer to the Alaskan.

30 July 2009, 06:09

ScottS

Just where would you put to bullet in these pictures to split the skull?

Thanks

30 July 2009, 07:22

Big Bore Boar Hunter

Side brain shot is about 2" below and 2" to the rear of the eye socket.

John

30 July 2009, 09:20

Tapper2

If she likes the .458 WM why not get one that will fit her? I have three I'm willing to part with and I like the cartridge. If you want to have a .416, why not build her a .416 Taylor? Less recoil and can be pushed to near .416 Rem. Mag speeds. It's one of my favorites, also. It's a very accurate round.....Tom

30 July 2009, 09:51

Robgunbuilder

ScottS- Wasn't one of the conditions of your restraining order that you not approach young children within 300yrds? -Rob