Good day folks,

As some of you know, I am having a custom DG rifle based on a Model 70 blue, beautiful wood stock being built in 416 Rem Mag, 24" barrel. This will be my good weather rifle for Buff, Ele, Hippo.

I'd like to have another rifle built for rain: Stainless Steel, Synthetic stock.

This more rugged rain rifle would be for African shoulder/rainy season or for hunts in more humid/tropical areas (Bongo, some buff. Cameroon, Moz.) and for plain rainy Alaska/Canada/Russia: Brown Bear, Grizzly (although I have a 300 win mag for that), Walrus, Polar Bear.

I am debating if I should have the rifle also chambered in a 416 rem mag (since I will already have a wood stock version in a similar rifle) or if I should go with a cartridge similar to Saeed's fast 375, in 375 Weatherby (can fire 375 H&H if needed). The cartridge would still need to be able to work on the largest game (Ele) but be mostly used as an all-arounder as described above- large bears, buff, eland, bongo, Giraffe-sized game. Albeit, for most of these, my 300 win mag with 200 gr bullets is likely sufficient. It's just if traveling to hunt DG, I'd like to bring two DG rifles.

I'd value your comments, tips, advice.

You wouldn't be missing much with a 416, 375 and a 300 WM, pretty well covers the big stuff on every continent.

My African battery included a .458 WM for thick skinned dangerous game, a .375 H&H for thin skinned dangerous game and heavy plains game (eland, greater kudu) and a .300 H&H for the rest of plains game.

I prefer the sloped shouldered original H&H cartridges because of their absolute reliability in feeding, which the steeper shouldered cartridges can't always guarantee.

I would go with the .416 of course. Wider and heavier bullets at speed transmit greater shock needed to stomp dangerous game. I sure like my all-weather .416 Ruger Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My African battery included a .458 WM for thick skinned dangerous game,

EXCELLENT!

a .375 H&H for thin skinned dangerous game and heavy plains game (eland, greater kudu)

JOLLY GOOD SHOW!

and a .300 H&H for the rest of plains game.

FINE.

I prefer the sloped shouldered original H&H cartridges because of their absolute reliability in feeding, which the steeper shouldered cartridges can't always guarantee.

I would use the standard, slick-feeding .375 H&H ammo in my .375 WBY.
Doing that can turn a 2530 fps 300-grain factory load into a 2430 fps 300-grainer.
According to Kevin "Doctari" Robertson, that makes it even deadlier, regarding bullet integrity, bullet placement, and follow-up shots, with reduced recoil.
Yep, some recoil reduction in slowing a 300-grainer down by 100 fps.
In my experience there is no trouble doing that.
No feed-job alterations were required for my Winchester M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H that was rechambered to .375 Weatherby Magnum.
It still holds same 3 + 1 cartridges of either ammo, but gets 300-grainers well past 2700 fps in a 24" barrel:



Missing Data Rectified:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...701054532#9701054532

Data Table Wiped Out Here:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html

I'd take a .17 or .22 rimfire instead of the .300 H&H as my third rifle,
if I had my .375 WBY.
And the .458 WIN and .375 WBY would both be Long-Actioned, same action,
whether Winchester M70 or Magnum Mauser.

Unless, of course, I had an O/U .458 WIN double rifle, with .375 H&H and 20-Gauge barrel sets all packed in the same case:



Forget the rest, except keep a stainless/synthetic .375 Wby M70 for rainy weather.

Rip ...

Thank you gentlemen. Nice rifles too.

I'd love to hear from other folks too. Such a wealth of opinions and knowledge here.

416 without a doubt

I'm a 416 fan. I certainly like it more than the 375. But you asked about a "second" DG rifle, not the primary, so here is my 2 cents.

When hunting anywhere other than Africa, say brown bears in Alaska or Russia, you usually don't have the luxury (or hassle) of taking a 2nd DG rifle along.

If you are contemplating, from your opening commentary, having a different rifle designed around different environmental concerns, sure, go with the 416 in a "wet wx" configuration.

However, if contemplating Africa, remember that some places will not allow two rifles of the same caliber to be imported. So for that scenario, I like two different calibers that can substitute for each other in a bind should something happen to one.

For trips where I'm focused on hunting with my doubles, I take a 500NE and a 9.3x74R. For trips, like I'm taking this year where I'm not using doubles, I take a 416 Rigby and a 375 H7H.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My African battery included a .458 WM for thick skinned dangerous game,

EXCELLENT!

a .375 H&H for thin skinned dangerous game and heavy plains game (eland, greater kudu)

JOLLY GOOD SHOW!

and a .300 H&H for the rest of plains game.

FINE.

I prefer the sloped shouldered original H&H cartridges because of their absolute reliability in feeding, which the steeper shouldered cartridges can't always guarantee.

I would use the standard, slick-feeding .375 H&H ammo in my .375 WBY.
Doing that can turn a 2530 fps 300-grain factory load into a 2430 fps 300-grainer.
According to Kevin "Doctari" Robertson, that makes it even deadlier, regarding bullet integrity, bullet placement, and follow-up shots, with reduced recoil.
Yep, some recoil reduction in slowing a 300-grainer down by 100 fps.
In my experience there is no trouble doing that.
No feed-job alterations were required for my Winchester M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H that was rechambered to .375 Weatherby Magnum.
It still holds same 3 + 1 cartridges of either ammo, but gets 300-grainers well past 2700 fps in a 24" barrel:



Missing Data Rectified:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...701054532#9701054532

Data Table Wiped Out Here:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html

I'd take a .17 or .22 rimfire instead of the .300 H&H as my third rifle,
if I had my .375 WBY.
And the .458 WIN and .375 WBY would both be Long-Actioned, same action,
whether Winchester M70 or Magnum Mauser.

Unless, of course, I had an O/U .458 WIN double rifle, with .375 H&H and 20-Gauge barrel sets all packed in the same case:



Forget the rest, except keep a stainless/synthetic .375 Wby M70 for rainy weather.

Rip ...

There is history written all over that buttstock

My vote is for the 375 Weatherby. Flat shooting, hard hitting, recoil is pretty mild even in our 7 1/2 lb Rem XCR II (including scope). For up close you can shoot the 350g Woodleigh HD softpoints or solids at 2550 fps, otherwise the 300g A-Frame at 2800 fps is pretty sweet.

Either caliber will be lovely

When I made a bad weather DGR, I rebarreled a stainless M70 .375 to .416 rem mag.

My concern was elephant while hunting Bongo.

Bigger bullets work better on elephant head shots IME. I’d get a stainless .458 if it was a pure DGR. If you have a thought of using it as a bad weather all around rifle then the .416 is a good compromise- or a .375 is fine. I’m too traditionalist/Luddite to stoop to the Ruger offerings, but this is one of the places where there are not too many magnum length actions, and if you have no moral objection, the .416 ruger or .375 ruger are really good options if you don’t want the .458.

I like to keep it simple.
Have a stainless barrel chambered with the same reamer as your blued steel 416.
Develop a mid weight load with a fairly high bc 300 - 350 gr expanding bullet @ 2550- 2625 fps
And there you will have it !
Heavy weight (400) gr solids and softs for their jobs. And the mid weight expanding highish bc mono metal for everything else.
And lots of practice ammo loaded with 350 gr Speer bullets.

Imho duplicating your blued rifle ( If it fits you just right) in stainless and synthetic is the way to go.
Nowadays about every style of synthetic stock is readily available.

Might consider a laminated stock. Should be a little heavier than a FG and about as impervious to the elements. Should assist in recoil management.
The one thing wrong about a FG stock is it can be noisy in the brush.

I have never hunted DG but owned a couple of Big Bores.

Since you already own a steel wood 416 Rem, I would just duplicate it in SS Synthetic. Can the chamber be cut with the same reamer?

My view is that a DG rifle is not a high volume shooter and you are not going to be plinking with it. All you need is a solid reliable rifle that performs in the field every time. You just need to have the right loads that shoot well in both rifles.

By having 2 rifles of same caliber you are simplifying a lot of load work. If the chamber is cut identically you may even be able to use the same sizing die settings and just vary the loads as per the preferences of each rifle. If you are lucky you may even be able to shoot the same ammo - like using factory ammo.

For me the fit of the rifles would be the main issue.

Naki Hunter ; great minds think alike !

quote:

Since you already own a steel wood 416 Rem, I would just duplicate it in SS Synthetic.

+1

Definitely the .416.

The 416 rem mag is awesome I have 4 of them use to have 6.Its accurate easy to shoot and load .It will kill anything on earth .I can shoot it a good many times no problem .I have used it 20 years it's an awesome cartridge !

Why not a good .375H&H as your second DGR?

Anyone hunting Africa is going to gave a PH with a heavy gun backing him up anyway.

Plus, it's not like you'd have a hard time finding .375 H&H ammo if the airlines 'lost' yours on the trip over.

If you shoot 300 and 350 gr. Barnes X or GS Customs mono bullets and the 450 gr. Woodleighs PPs in your .416 Rem. it will best the 375 and all the rest..A little bench work with the chronograph makes one realize the 416 Rem. is probably the best one gun all around caliber in existence short of the recoil factor, and that's not bad at all..I was hard pressed to accept this but chronographs don't lie..If recoil is a factor then the .375 would be my next choice..I suspect the 404 Jefferys would do as well, but never got around to it..Im a big 40 caliber fan, but only in Africa hunting DG and PG combined.

Hi Ray, what's your opinion of the Woodleigh
350g HD Softpoints. I have a 375 Weatherby (Rem XCR II, nice and light at 7.5 lbs) and was thinking of loading them to 2500 fps for bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Definitely the .416.

My first reaction is another 416 Rem. Second was 375HH. One should replace the other in a pinch. I would want two 416 Rem mags myself if I already had one to start. Use the 300 grain ESP Raptors for everything but the nasty ones, then I would want the 400 grain solids. https://www.shootingtimes.com/...ame-cartridges/99179

If you master the trajectories of both loads, then that’s all you need amiright?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If you shoot 300 and 350 gr. Barnes X or GS Customs mono bullets and the 450 gr. Woodleighs PPs in your .416 Rem. it will best the 375 and all the rest..A little bench work with the chronograph makes one realize the 416 Rem. is probably the best one gun all around caliber in existence short of the recoil factor, and that's not bad at all..I was hard pressed to accept this but chronographs don't lie..If recoil is a factor then the .375 would be my next choice..I suspect the 404 Jefferys would do as well, but never got around to it..Im a big 40 caliber fan, but only in Africa hunting DG and PG combined.

Ray, your advice on a 416 is excellent.

In addition, your high praise of the Ruger Hawkeye African elsewhere leads to one more recommendation:

the 416 Ruger in a Ruger Hawkeye African rifle.

The 416 Ruger duplicates the ballistics of the 416 Rem, and does so in a standard-action rifle.

I will probably downgrade to a 416 Ruger one of these days from handloaded 416 Rigbys. I go back and forth between a Hawkeye African, wood, blued, 23" barrel, and a Hawkeye Alaskan, stainless, 20". We'll see.

Talus,

Why don't you get a nice Cerakote or similar finish on your current built and have both a wood and synthetic made for it. That way you can use the same rifle for everything you might need a 416 for. I know everyone always recommends what has worked for them but as a second all around rifle there are no flies on the 375 WBY. A 270 TSX at 2900 fps covers a whole lot of applications from PG to buffalo. Additionally it is about perfect for big bears or that moose that's out there at 350 yards.

Mark

Chuck,
I tested the 350 gr. 375s and the 450 gr. 416 and 404 for Geoff (Woodleigh) in Africa for several years before he put them on the market..both in PP and the RN and solids..It is still my favorite bullet for Buffalo. The PP has a bit more penetration and the RN does a lot of internal damage. I would recommend the PP for hunting Dagga boys, and the RN for shooting in herds. I personally put a soft up the tube followed by solids...They sure do put buffalo in the salt.