I have never shot a large bore rifle so I am curious about the recoil.I have fired 3 and 3.5 inch 12 gauge shotgun shells.These with buckshot and slugs from a pump action shotgun.Is the recoil anything similar to something like a 416 Rigby?

One of the reasons I am looking for answers is a friend of mine fired a 375 H and H and he told me it felt like someone punched him in the nose.He may
have been a stock crawler but I would like to hear others' opinions.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

stock fit goes a long way. so does technique and frankly, the circumstances under which one is shooting - at paper or fur.

The first time I shot a .416 Rem, I thought " HOLY SHIT", what have I bought. The largest caliber I had shot before that was a .338 Win Mag and the .416 was A STEP UP! I bought, next, a .375 H&H and it was much more pleasant. I kept playing with the .416 until I was used to the recoil. And I moved up from there.
My advice is not to start at the top end of what you want to shoot. Work up a caliber or 2 at a time. When you're comfy with the largest you have then try to move up.

Wingnut has a good approach. I'd offer one alternative. Shoot something significantly heavier than what you want to shoot and then your desired rifle will be a pussycat.

Example: If you want to shoot a .416, which is a very manageable cartridge in my opinion, shoot a .458 Lott. I call my .458 Lott the "She-Bitch from Hell", especially shooting it off the bench. After that, you will dearly love your .416 sweetheart.

I got my first big bore rifle, a .458 WM, in 1962, and I was frankly afraid of it. I shot hundreds of rounds through it with lead bullets loaded to .45-70 performance level before ever shooting a factory load.

A few years later I decided that I needed something to set the .458 in perspective, so I designed and had built my .505 SRE, which duplicated .500 Nitro Express ballistics (and recoil). After that, I never noticed the .458.

Shooting at game, I never noticed the recoil of the .505, either.

I have shot a wide selection of magnums up to the 416, and even 3" and 3.5" mag 12ga shells. 338win was surprisingly mild, and 375H&H is a pussycat to shoot really, especially standing. If you can hand a 3" mag, 375 is a walk in the park. Now when you graduate to the 40 calibers and bigger, it really does step up. First time I shot my 416 rem, I put 10 shots thru it standing, and it was down right punishing. Part of it was not holding it in a way that reduced the felt recoil. Second time I took it out, it was stout, but controllable and more enjoyable to shoot. The 3.5" 12ga in a pump, was probably the most severe recoil I have ever experienced. I would almost say its worse than a 416. My guess is your friend was scared of the 375, and that's what got him, didn't hold it right, or poor fit, or all the above. My wife has shot my 375 even while standing of course with some accuracy. With the bigger guns, proper form, and fitment is paramount. Go on youtube, watch the chumps, and you'll figure out who knows how to hold the big kickers, and who doesn't.

After those shotguns the 375 will be boring. Start standing, pull the gun in firmly and keep your left arm firm.

Well, the main purpose of a 416Rigby is to be able to handload to its capacity (or else nostalgia). so I'm not sure what to recommend for 'over-kick' practice, maybe a 460 Weatherby. The hnadloaded 416Rigby will already be at 458Lott levels, or even a tad more. Now the 416 Rem and 416Ruger are more comfortable, and maybe a perceptible step down in recoil. But even the noise of a 243 can be disconcerting to a shooter on the bench.

The two biggest factors for recoil management are mindset and proper holding.
Mindset is easy to develop if one considers that one is practicing for holding on an animal that would love to put YOU away. It's me or him. And that makes it easier to squeeze on a very large caliber.
Secondly, hold is very important. It helps to make sure that the forearm hand has a good grip. That adds weight to the recoil of the firearm. It is not like a small bore where the person just rests the rifle on its front rest at the range and lets it recoil freely up. A big bore should be held. This is the only way in the field to be ready for a second shot. So practice holding on consistently hard with the forearm. The back hand is tight, too. So the sensation with shooting a large bore is something like "riding the rifle". Hold is tight to the shoulder with both hands, let the trigger finger squeeze easily, and ride your new friend.

PS: The head and neck should be as far from the scope as possible and kept firm and somewhat vertical. 4" eye-relief, or more, is recommended, though I've shot Rigbys with less.

Here is a picture of a 500 ARNyati on a bench with a scope.

It's not a big deal, just getting a tool ready for an animal.

(If the stock takes a whack at one's check, then all bets are off. But a large bore should not be so stocked.)

For me I went from 12g/30-06 level guns to a 375 H&H. It was piece of cake.

Going from 375 to 458 win was a different story, and it took a long time to get comfortable with full power loads. I don't have a 416, but the ones I've tried seemed about the same as a 458.

My first 416 Rigby was a Ruger #1 Tropical. The first shot was horrendous, shot it a second time just to see if I had done something wrong the first time. Nope, their was not a third shot, it was cleaned and sold. Next came a Dakota Safari that was an absolute sweetheart, this stock fit me. I sold that rifle to a friend because he wanted it more than I did. Now my 404 Jeffery is just the same, a sweetheart.
Stock fit is paramount!
Doug

For a year prior to my first trip across the pond I shot nothing but the two rifles I intended to take. One was a 375 H&H and the other a 458 Lott. After a while you will learn what to expect and how to handle the recoil. When I got back from my first trip it was close to Elk season and my 338 WinMag seemed like a pussy cat. Get what you want but shoot it as your only rifle until you really get to know it.
JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by drm-hp:
My first 416 Rigby was a Ruger #1 Tropical. The first shot was horrendous, shot it a second time just to see if I had done something wrong the first time. Nope, their was not a third shot, it was cleaned and sold. Next came a Dakota Safari that was an absolute sweetheart, this stock fit me. I sold that rifle to a friend because he wanted it more than I did. Now my 404 Jeffery is just the same, a sweetheart.
Stock fit is paramount!
Doug

Stock fit is everything. So is familiarization. You get used to it. I can go 20 rounds at a sitting off the bench with my 375 in a tee shirt. Wouldn't want to do that with anything bigger but shooting standing or sitting or off sticks at game with the big bores doesn't take a superman.

You have to figure out that -- you shoot the big ones differently.

Get off your seat and shoot off bags standing up.

Grab onto the forend (instead of merely resting it on the front bag.)

Cheek weld, LOP and stock fit matter more than with smaller bores.

Anticipation of the "thump" creates flinch response. To avoid your brain learning to get ready for pain, use PAST or other brand pads in addition to a good butt pad. Related to the "thump" is even louder reports. Double protect your hearing.

Since you have experience with magnum shotguns, realize that it is just getting your brain ready for / accustomed to something like what is already familiar.

The weight of the gun makes a big difference in felt recoil. I have a Ruger #1 in 450 Nitro that weighs 7.5 pounds. With 500gr bullets moving over 2400fps, it will knock you into next week.

Even in the hands of a large and determined man, three shots is about it for an outing.

Tony Rumore
Tromix

I'd rather shot my 9 Lbs, 375 H&H magnum than my 7 Lbs, 12 gauge with 3" magnum loads.

I have a lot of big bore's. I would rather shoot a Box of 12 gauge 3" mag than shoot my 500 Nitro once!!! But the 500 Double is a BLAST to shoot!!!

A 375 is a Cream Puff compared to a 500!!!

If he felt like he got punched in the nose, its probably because he thumb punched himself in the nose. Sounds like the stock is too short. A .375 of normal weight is surprisingly mild to shoot. When you bump it up a notch to warm .416 and .458s you may as well say the recoil is doubled more or less.

I keep hearing stories about horrible recoil and just have to wonder what the shooter was doing. A 416 is not bad at all. I shoot my 416 Rigby with 350 gr bulletts at 2800 fps and enjoy the hell out of it. It is truly a mindset. If you decide before hand that you will enjoy the rifle then recoil will be negligible. If you have a timid fear of stepping up in caliber then yes the recoil will be uncomfortable.

A 375 anything should be just plain fun to shoot. A 416 should make you feel like you can take on any animal on the planet. Anything bigger should make hair grow in places you don't want. Don't let other peoples perception of recoil limit your enjoyment of shooting bigger caliber rifles.

A proper fitting rifle will let you shoot any caliber you wish and enjoy every shot.

so, to answer your question, no, a 12ga pump isn't going to give you recoil like a 416 rigby. 437grns (1oz) at 1200 fps isnt even a reckoning for 400gr at 2400 - not even in a single shot HR lightweight

but it will give you an idea of how well you can be TRAINED for recoil .. if you think a 12ga pump kicks too much, and shooting a box of shells is hard on you, well, then, recoil might be an issue for you.

if you can shoot 8 rounds of clays/skeet and think nothing of it, with a light shotty, then its likely to be easy for you.

either way, you can learn to handle recoil.

i STRONGLY suggest, if there is any way in the world for your head/eye to hit the scope, that you begin with no scope, or the scope on lowest power, as far away from you as possible, as you aren't shooting for groups .. a scope cut will put you off big bores, induce a flinch, make you buy custom stocks, design and build a stock duplicator (design and build 4-7 times) so that you can have a stock in less than a year, and learn inletting..

no, wait, that's just me ...

anyway, here's the thing, if you reload, then you can start with the lightest loads you can find (about shotgun level) and load up to actual performance.

trust me, the 416XXX DOES kick, and if you've never shot a big bore, its a new experience, with lots of sensory and kinetic inputs, happening FAST

after a short period of time, however, things happen, like you wish your 308 only weighed 4.5#, as you can't feel it... that you can shoot 2 rounds of trap, in a gold shirt, with a hard buttplate lightweight 12ga... and only then remember that its your coach gun, not your trapgun, and that your group for all smaller calibers get better.

anyway, enough babble -- a rigby does kick, its not hard to master, and it requires work to do so.

I can relate somewhat to uncomfortable recoil, because although I believe recoil is mostly in your head it isn't entirely in your head.

When I first got .416 Rigby I couldn't wait to hot-rod the loads to the sky and shot it with the non-functional pad and no scope which made it that much lighter. Whatever the unfortunate combination was; pain shot through my arm right to my finger-nails and I went numb, then when the numbness would subside I was wishing for it to come back. I'm not a doctor and have no idea what nerve was getting pounded but the best way I can describe was a feeling of being electrocuted and exploded at the same time. Didn't put up with that nonsense long because obviously there had to something wrong. A pad change, sane loads and a bit of extra weight from the scope completely changed the nature of the rifle and I'm good for 35-40 rounds at a time with it now. My .458 Lott is no big deal either. So, while I'm quick to say recoil is mostly mental I also acknowledge that when people talk about extreme recoil they might just be experiencing the same thing I did. That's way past mental and heading for medical.
In a situation like that the easiest fix would be to give the buffalo the rifle. He might miss me but the recoil is bound to disable him.

I have to agree with Jeff a 12 ga is no big bore--I find the faster 375s, 416s and the fast 458s the worst of the lot. Mainly because most 375 ultra, 378s are light for caliber and recoil hard fast, and sharp. 458 Lotts and 460 weatherby are just beastly (500 grain at 2400-- hurts).
And so are the 500s pushed past 2250fps. I had a 8.5 lb 500 jeffery once upon a time...I found my limit with that gun. Velocity, weight, and stock fit all play a part. I say if you want a big boy don't load top end loads...work up most are pretty workable below 2100fps--it slows the recoil speed, the perceived recoil will be manageable. Have fun shooting.

I agree with Lavaca and Xausa, shoot something bigger than what you plan to use and it puts everything into perspective.






330 grains of FFg under a 2133 grain bullet and now none of my other guns kick at all.

Bob

I think there are a couple of key points.

Over close to 50 years I could not count the number of blokes turn up at the range with a 375 H&H. In general the blokes who have trouble are those who think it is a real cannon.

On the hand blokes who are well read up etc. and know the 375 is just in the mid power range generally do much better.

How you use the rifle is a big issue. One of the reasons the 378 Wby has its reputation is it is really a big 300 Magnum. As a result blokes are looking for top accuracy, trying lots of loads etc. However, a 458 tends to be something where you are lot looking for the last 3 f/s of velocity and top accuracy but rather tend to shoot rocks, trees, water cans etc.

A similar situation is seen on these forum with recoil and 300 Magnum Vs 375 H&H. I can tell you for a fact that with a bag of lead shot behind either the bag will go back further with the 375. However, like the 378 the 300 Magnum shooter will more often be chasing top velocity with top accuracy all of which means a lot more shots. Also the stress is greater when you are chasing the last few feet per second and small groups.

The 300 Magnums (especially 300 RUM and 30/378) and the 378 produce big muzzle blast and concussion.

AI have seen plenty of blokes who reckon a 270 or 7mm Rem is worse than a 12 gauge shotgun. Two factors at work here. One being the way the rifle are shot and the 12 gauge does not have the muzzle blast, more of a "flat bang" like you get with a 458.

Lastly, I would say the 375 H&H and when loaded close to original ballistics which you can do with powders like 3031 or similar.....is about the maximum whereby you can shoot one exactly as you would a 270, that is, where there is zero compromise being made for recoil. This assumes no muzzle brakes.

I can and have used the 375 loaded with 3031 and Australian equivalent and around 65 grains with 300 grainers and 68 with 270 grainers...velocities are around 2450 and just over 2600....for spotlight shooting kangaroos and night after night. I would defy anyone to do that with something bigger....again, no muzzle brakes.

After shooting a few rounds through my 10.75# 600 OverKill, my 375H, 416Rem and 458WM seem like kitty cats....

Just sayin'

Your experience may differ!

Andy B

So buy the 416 Rigby already and go shoot it.

Start with starting loads or factory rounds, and then load it up the wazoo.

Just hold on with both hands and enjoy the ride. As the "Real Guns" writer Joe Alessandro said, "[The 416 Rigby is] probably the most powerful gun I could say I enjoyed shooting without lying through my teeth."

2 things are important with perceived recoil.

1) attitude and 2) stock fit.

Just a couple of anecdotes to illustrate.

First anecdote.
I owned and shot a ZKK 602 375 H&H for a few years, and shot 20 or more rounds from the bench at a sitting, since it was quite fussy about accuracy. I'd get a small bruise on my shoulder next morning.

At the range a guy offered me a go with his Remmy 700 375 H&H - I felt as though someone had hit me in the shoulder with the back of an axe. I was really hurting after one round. Similarly, here in Oz, I have fired a friend's Remmy 416 Rem - it seems to be built to ding my right knuckles and kick the crap out of me.
Stock fit.

Second anecdote.
A group of us used to get together at the range back in RSA and shoot each other's firearms. Two of the wives there - both really, really cute used to love to shoot my 375. When they saw me when they arrived, they'd come running over shouting whether I'd brought old Betsy, and they'd shoot up whatever ammo I had, wearing tiny little tops with string straps, boobs bouncing all over in the recoil - I was one happy old pervert, I can tell you. Nary a complaint about recoil. One was maybe 5'6 and really athletic, the other a tad taller and a little more "rounded".
Attitude.

Proper hold, or a special adjusted hold, can sometimes ameliorate both anecdotes.

My first experience with big bore shooting was with a friend in the US about 8 years ago.

I shot many of his & a friend's rifles.

The 375H&H was no different to my 9.3X62.

The 450/400 was a bit more but it was very easy to shoot accurately as the rifle fit me very well. I just love that rifle!

The 470 NE Chapuis beat me up bad - terrible fit of rifle & my cheek was swollen for a week.

600NE - was actually easier to shoot as it it fit well. Just pushed me back a big step. No pain or dropping the gun! This was AFTER the beating I got from the 470!

Then I bought my 416 Rigby. It was lively and noticeable but the recoil was right back & I shot it very well.

My friend on the other hand cut his eyebrow with the scope on 4 separate occasions - the rifle just did not fit him!

Conclusion - make sure the rifle fits you correctly & get your shooting technique right.

I have spent more than one sunrise putting a box of shells of 3" 12 gauge through my O/U on ducks and geese. My old Belgian 10 ga SxS has a bit more "bark" to it. I don't own a big bore but have fired them and don't really think there is a noticeable difference with say a 416. The 375 is not nearly as "sharp" as the 3" mag loads. I can give no opinion on the bigger big bores.

The 416 Rigby is a big push at a 410gr bullet @ 2400fps, step up the velocity to 2500fps or more, and it gets lively, but not punishing.
My Win Model 70 Stainless in 375 Weatherby has harsher recoil then my 416 Rigby, it comes back fast and harsh with obvious torque to the left. No other rifle I own does that. Most people who fire ut say they don't like it, I'm used to it.
My 458 Lott is fast, but it doesn't torque like the 375.
My 505 Gibbs just boots straight up, recoil is stout, far more then my 500 Nitro double.

Recoil is different for everyone, haven't truly found my limit, but I can tell you my boat paddle stocked Ruger in 300WM would bruise me off the bench with as little as 10 rounds! Horrible f ing stock deign!!

Cheers.

It's more of a big push ...

An old lady only drove it on Sundays ...

The check's on it's way ...

The big bores kick! Start with a 375 H&H, everyone should have one. Go up from there if you want, but there's no need. Do not start shooting from the bench either. Start out off hand.

Good luck, they're great fun!

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:

Recoil is different for everyone, haven't truly found my limit, but I can tell you my boat paddle stocked Ruger in 300WM would bruise me off the bench with as little as 10 rounds! Horrible f ing stock deign!!

Cheers.

Buddies back in RSA used to say if you had a medical problem with shoulders or back, you'd go to the Doc who'd give you a boat-paddle Ruger to try. If it fit you, he'd immediately send you to the orthopedic surgeon, because there was something wrong with your joints and skeletal proportions for damn sure.

My Brother has a H & R single-shot Turkey 12 gauge shotgun with a 3.5" chamber. We fired it one afternoon using the 3" & 3.5" shells. When my turn came up to fire this monster; I fired both 3" & 3.5" loads, which made me step back several steps. Glad I was not shooting at the bench!!! I've fired both .460 Weatherby Magnum & .378 Weatherby Magnum several years ago, the their recoil, while being on the heavy side, was less worse than firing a 3" or 3.5" 12 gauge Turkey load. I also have a 12 gauge Ithica Model 37 Feather light pump, and with their factory slug barrel, with 2 3/4" chamber, it is a real "Kicker"!! I like shooting my .308 better.

When I used to qualify with a sawed off 3" 12 ga. Magnum with slugs and shot, my impression was it was pretty horrific, probably had to do with stock fit and consecutive fast aimed shots..It felt like more recoil than I got from my big bores including a 505 Gibbs..I also insisted on shooting from a bench to be sure and get my rifles shooting properly and that adds to later problems. I have pretty severe bursitis from shooting big bore rifles according to my client doctor..

Recoil can be a strange sensation, it just depends on the individual, his mind set, and on what day of the week and his physical and mental frame of mind on that day, some things cannot be determined by ballistic paper facts. I always picked a good day to test fire and file in sights on big bores, and that pretty much ruined that particular day.

At one time I could shoot any big bore and was pretty much immune to recoil of any kind, unfortunately as you age that will no longer be the case, because the real big bores will damage the body, and effect your hearing unless your very careful. In my case I never would hunt DG with hearing protection, I always felt I needed to hear what was going on around me, and besides early on hearing protection was not used back then by anyone I know, other than perhaps sticking a couple of emptys in your ears..

Bottom line is you need to beg, borrow, or steal a 416 and make that determination on your own, not someone elses advise. I know many shooters who obviously are pumped to the hilt with testosterone and crave recoil, they shoot the big bores well indeed. I know many more who profess to massive amounts of testosterone that nearly bend a trigger guard every shot and shoot tub size patterns as opposed to groups, but blame the gun.

I suggest to those just starting out on big bores to install a muzzle brake, use ear protection and shoot it a bit and at the end of each session take the brake off and fire 5 rounds off hand..After six months to a year of this you won't need the brake anymore. It seems to work for everyone, at least so far.

Good luck..

I shot a CZ 550 with a muzzle brake yesterday. The Rigby was loaded with 400 gr DGX and 90.5 gr of H4350, chrono'ed at 2480 fps. The recoil was not much different than my 375 shooting 300 gr bullets at about the same speed. The 375 is lighter and doesn't have a brake. Overall I found that particular Rigby to be quite easy to shoot. I wouldn't want to shoot it off the bench all day, as the 375 neither.

quote:

Originally posted by DRS:
My Brother has a H & R single-shot Turkey 12 gauge shotgun with a 3.5" chamber. We fired it one afternoon using the 3" & 3.5" shells. When my turn came up to fire this monster; I fired both 3" & 3.5" loads, which made me step back several steps. Glad I was not shooting at the bench!!! I've fired both .460 Weatherby Magnum & .378 Weatherby Magnum several years ago, the their recoil, while being on the heavy side, was less worse than firing a 3" or 3.5" 12 gauge Turkey load. I also have a 12 gauge Ithica Model 37 Feather light pump, and with their factory slug barrel, with 2 3/4" chamber, it is a real "Kicker"!! I like shooting my .308 better.

Other than a Heym 500 NE, the worst I have been kicked was by a super light 12 gauge pump. I shot some slugs. Damn but that thing walloped me.

We have an old H&R 20 gauge single shot. it is a junior model I think. Even with light loads, that things will just hammer you.

quote:

the circumstances under which one is shooting - at paper or fur.

For me, that sums it all up. I never notice myself or anyone else really being concerned with recoil when shooting at game. Shooting at paper is a completely different deal.

If I may, while it is not a big bore I had the pleasure of shooting Randall's Ruger 35 Whelen with a nice long barrel and some TSXs loaded up. That was a particularly satisfying gun to shoot. The ruger guns have a little drop off at the heel and fit me pretty well. That is a gun which I believe would fit most marching orders quite well until the animals fight back.

Just sayin'.

My favorite rifle to shoot is my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. It weighs 12 lbs with scope/rings, unloaded. It does kick when shooting a 570g bullet at 2300 fps!

Our lightest kicking big/medium bore is my 7 1/4 lb Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby (heresy it's not a CRF!). With 375 H&H factory loads it's an absolute pussycat. It must be the soft synthetic stock. It is very accurate as is my 500. Shooting Rem Safari Grade 300g A-Frame factory loads it's accurate, easy to carry and doesn't kick hardly at all.

The 12 guage loads are pretty stout so you can certainly handle 375 and probably 416. If someone has never shot anything bigger than 30/06 then 338 and 375 will get there attention.