Alister is one heck of a shot, I can tell you that! He picked up my double, aimed at a rock about 8" in size at 80-85 yards and busted the pi$$ out of it. Of course it was only a lowly 450/400....he needs a 500.

Tell him Gary says hello.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Never hunted with him but I really liked him. The night was ver interesting for me. I had Alistair Pole on my right. Buzz Charleton on my left. Alister straight across from me and Werner ??? Next to him. It was a fun night.

What I failed to ask was where those 2 shots hit. Judging from the story, there was probably less than 2 seconds between first seeing the buff and the buff hitting. Says a lot that he even got a shot off.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Only on AR big bore forum!

Go over to small bore forum and see the debate over what is the best deer rifle a 223 or 22-250! Yes, really. Neither is even legal in many states, let alone recommended.

Ya saying the 223 is good for deer is like a master guide saying the 06 is good for brown bear. Either will work fine I'd things go right with a good shot. Neither is good is things go wrong. But at least the 223 doesn't ruin much meat on a deer with a tough bullet.

quote:

My buddy shot a black bear in the heart with a 303 Savage. A direct heart shot. The bear ran 100 yards before it dropped dead. He was dead already, but just to stubborn to admit it.

That reminds me of the account that someone (Ganyana, I think) shared a couple of years ago. A PH and some hunters stumbled across a small number of poachers. Most of the poachers ran, but one started firing on the party with an AK-47. The PH returned fire with a .375 H&H (I think) and blew half the poacher's head off. Incredibly, the poacher still had enough life to run 50 meters before he collapsed and expired in the jess!
My point: Maybe sometimes even too much is not enough. Who's to say the poacher couldn't have continued shooting for that same length of time?

Great calibre and very versatile!

I need to correct a mistake I made in my post.....I THOUGHT it was a rock.....but in fact it was a BRICK!!....smaller target! Sorry Alister....yes he's that good of a shot.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

I hear you guys on the toughness of buff. As I have said, I have used a .458 Lott for buffalo.

Several years ago, I put this .458 caliber bullet from my Lott through the top of the heart of a big bull who was standing facing us at thirty yards. Our Maasai trackers found the bullet way back in the bull's guts. It had penetrated approximately four feet.



When they cut out the bull's heart, the bullet hole looked like a crater.



Still, the bull managed to run off nearly fifty yards before falling to the ground deep in a flat filled with some very tall elephant grass.

Of course, we didn't know whether he was dead, and had to follow him up. We were on his track, and were very, very close to him, in grass where we could not see more than five feet away in any direction.

Then he blasted out his final death bellow. We were less than ten yards from him, but could not see him, and I nearly jumped out of my shoes!



That's why I moved up to a .500 from the .458 Lott. I want them down right now - or as close to right now as I can get!

Mike do you see a marked difference between shooting them at 2500 fps vs 2300 fps. I'm shooting 570g TSX's out of my 500 Jeffery at 2300 fps (103g H4895) and 2410 fps (105g H4895 which is max by the A-Square manual). The recoil is a bit milder at 2300 fps, but both are very shootable offhand or off of sticks. From the bench with a lead sled, it's fine but the recoil knocks off my ear protection with each shot lol ... makes my shooting companions roar with laughter.

Best Regards,

Chuck

quote:

I want them down right now - or as close to right now as I can get!

Any views on best ammo weight and velocity for the Gibbs .505, in particular 525gr @ 2300fps (Kynoch) vs 600gr @ 2100fps (Norma PH), for bringing down the big dangerous game ultra-fast?

If a 300wm with nearly 4000 pounds of energy is needed to put down a 200-300 pound animal easily with a shoulder shot then what is needed to do the same to an animal that weighs 7 or 8 times that much? 30000 pds of energy?? I doubt a cartridge like that exists and if it did you obviuosly could not shoot that from your shoulder.Your not going to accomplish that by going from a 458 lott to a 500.

Chuck and PD,

I use 113 grains or so of RL-15 behind 570 grain Barnes TSX bullets in my .500 A2. That gets me 2,500 fps and 8,000 ft.-lbs.

I have not used lesser loads on buff. I killed an elephant with a 600 grain Woodleigh solid behind 110 grains of RL-15. That gave me about 2,300 fps and certainly did do the job, but the bullet pierced or nicked the elephant's brain (I think), so all the other details didn't matter much. He dropped at the shot and follow ups ended the show.

I killed another elephant with the 570 grain Barnes banded solid at 2,500 fps. Similar CNS hit and he dropped quite dead at the shot.

I like the most velocity and energy I can get, which is 570 grains at 2,500 fps or so, in my .500 A2, assuming one can handle the recoil.

That, for me, has not been a problem, with a well designed rifle and the right mental attitude. To quote Yogi Berra, 90% of recoil is half mental, and so am I.

I would not use a bullet of less than 570 grains in a .505 or .510 caliber. 525 is so close to the 500 used in the .458 that I'd have a hard time justifying the step up.

Heavier bullets of greater diameter are better, in my experience, and more speed, with good bullets, is better yet.

shootaway,

Not following you (as usual). See above. I would use a magic death stick if they made one. But they don't, and in the meantime, my .500 A2 is plenty more than good enough. Nothing is perfect, but bigger is better, in my experience.

I'm no expert, and must rely on my own experience and that of others that I trust, or whose advice makes sense to me. In point of fact, I have found that the advice of many who hold themselves out as experts makes no sense to me, and does not jive with my experience.

The .458 Lott is a good cartridge.

But it is not the giant killer that some make it out to be, and all I'm saying, once again, is that with good bullets, bigger is far better.

Well - no doubt that bigger is better. But there is a trade off when recoil gets to a certain level.
I have found my 577 TRex to be extremely effective. I have used 750 grs Barnes Banded solids at 2600 fps and GS Custom 800 grs FN solids at 2500 fps. Immense impact, and very deadly.
Have shot several eles with this combination, and I must say that when talking about head shots on eles then bullet placement is still the absolutely most important factor. A slightly misplaced big bullet will often stun him so you might get a second chance, but no guarantees.. I have also shot three with heart/lung shots with this combo, one went about 20 yards and the other two only took two or three paces.. I shot one buff bull with a single shot with a 750 Dead Tough soft point. It entered through the last rib from behind , angled through the chest cavity and lodged under the skin in opposite neck/shoulder junction. Perfect shot, but that bull still ran a lot before giving up the ghost. So no guarantees that it will be smack down everytime just because of big caliber/fast bullet.. Every animal is a new situation. Problem with the big 577 is that followup shots will be a bit slower compared with a light recoiling rifle like a 458 Lott or similar. And also that the big 577 is impossible to shoot in awkward shooting positions (to get a clear shot..) - awkward kneeling under a thorn bush, halfway prone over a stone / anthill etc etc - one really need a good shooting position to control the thing.

So its a trade off.. I must say that I more and more are going towards lighter and shorter (fast handling) rifles with reasonable punch but light recoil. So far I have found Jeffes 458 AR as a perfect match to my needs, and I guess that the 500 AR I`m having build will do it even better on elephants.

But thats just my experiences..

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

While in camp at Makuti this past season,Peter-an experienced PH told me he once saw a buff with nearly the whole heart destroyed from a bullet,go a long way before expiring.

Bear will do this to. My buddy shot a black bear in the heart with a 303 Savage. A direct heart shot. The bear ran 100 yards before it dropped dead. He was dead already, but just to stubborn to admit it.

I have had a 120 lb doe mule deer do the same thing.

465H&H

Reminder- Axiom 1-Please memorize this! Unless you hit the brain or spinal column, or Blow them up, EVERYTHING runs away or may continue to try and kill you independent of caliber utilized! Sometimes amazingly far!
Axiom 2. A .50 BMG through the hoof or paw usually wont stop em! Shot placement counts more than caliber.
Axiom 3- Pay attention to Axiom 1 and 2.
-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Well - no doubt that bigger is better. But there is a trade off when recoil gets to a certain level.
I have found my 577 TRex to be extremely effective. I have used 750 grs Barnes Banded solids at 2600 fps and GS Custom 800 grs FN solids at 2500 fps. Immense impact, and very deadly.
Have shot several eles with this combination, and I must say that when talking about head shots on eles then bullet placement is still the absolutely most important factor. A slightly misplaced big bullet will often stun him so you might get a second chance, but no guarantees.. I have also shot three with heart/lung shots with this combo, one went about 20 yards and the other two only took two or three paces.. I shot one buff bull with a single shot with a 750 Dead Tough soft point. It entered through the last rib from behind , angled through the chest cavity and lodged under the skin in opposite neck/shoulder junction. Perfect shot, but that bull still ran a lot before giving up the ghost. So no guarantees that it will be smack down everytime just because of big caliber/fast bullet.. Every animal is a new situation. Problem with the big 577 is that followup shots will be a bit slower compared with a light recoiling rifle like a 458 Lott or similar. And also that the big 577 is impossible to shoot in awkward shooting positions (to get a clear shot..) - awkward kneeling under a thorn bush, halfway prone over a stone / anthill etc etc - one really need a good shooting position to control the thing.

So its a trade off.. I must say that I more and more are going towards lighter and shorter (fast handling) rifles with reasonable punch but light recoil. So far I have found Jeffes 458 AR as a perfect match to my needs, and I guess that the 500 AR I`m having build will do it even better on elephants.

But thats just my experiences..

One of the best posts here in years Ulrik. Not many people around who can give that sort of comparison.

Everyone else is comparing the difference between a 500 and a 458 or a 416 and a 375 or whether 2400 is better than 2150 etc.etc.

Ultralarge bores pushed fast against the biggest game. There it is.Covers one extreme entirely and takes out all the hypotheticals.

Agree about shooting position necessity with the monster bores as well

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Well - no doubt that bigger is better. But there is a trade off when recoil gets to a certain level.

I agree, buffalo.

As a matter of fact, that's precisely why I stopped going bigger after I moved up to the .500 A2.

I have found that it's remarkably more powerful and effective than the lesser cartridges I have used.

I have also found that it's my practical limit, in terms of power and portability.

Plus, it's a .500 bore, which eliminates any possible export problems for me, as a US citizen.

And Rob, as usual, your comments are right on the mark.

Whenever possible, one should always shoot Cape buffalo more than once! In fact, one should keep shooting until they fall down and stay down!

I find that the original 500 Jeff specs of 535 gr at 2300 is VERY effective and allows for faster follow ups (as needed) than a bigger bullet at similar velocities but more recoil.
If you can handle all that bang at the non-bidness end, fine....but I just don't see the need. Just my $.02 worth.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys on the toughness of buff. As I have said, I have used a .458 Lott for buffalo.

Several years ago, I put this .458 caliber bullet from my Lott through the top of the heart of a big bull who was standing facing us at thirty yards. Our Maasai trackers found the bullet way back in the bull's guts. It had penetrated approximately four feet.



When they cut out the bull's heart, the bullet hole looked like a crater.



Still, the bull managed to run off nearly fifty yards before falling to the ground deep in a flat filled with some very tall elephant grass.

Of course, we didn't know whether he was dead, and had to follow him up. We were on his track, and were very, very close to him, in grass where we could not see more than five feet away in any direction.

Then he blasted out his final death bellow. We were less than ten yards from him, but could not see him, and I nearly jumped out of my shoes!



That's why I moved up to a .500 from the .458 Lott. I want them down right now - or as close to right now as I can get!

What a great buff,and a even better story.
Thanks for telling it.

JD

This debate has been enlightening. I had this same discussion with the last 3 PH's I hunted with. They said - "You shoot your .375 H&H and shoot it well. Things are fine when you do. But I have a .458 Lott (another had a .470 NE double) just in case it is needed."

Anyway, I had a Lott and now need new fillings in my teeth from it. I am staying with the .375 H&H or a sissyfied .416 Rem with mercury and three recoil pads and two muzzle brakes!!!

What many are forgetting, there is a difference between a non alarmed buf and one who is shot, or wounded from a snare and in pain and overdosed on adrenalin.

Mike

So true Mike.

dogcat, I am surprised. My Lott is surprisingly mild. Less recoil than some 416's I have shot.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
This debate has been enlightening. I had this same discussion with the last 3 PH's I hunted with. They said - "You shoot your .375 H&H and shoot it well. Things are fine when you do. But I have a .458 Lott (another had a .470 NE double) just in case it is needed."

Anyway, I had a Lott and now need new fillings in my teeth from it. I am staying with the .375 H&H or a sissyfied .416 Rem with mercury and three recoil pads and two muzzle brakes!!!

A lot of it is the stock design of the rifle. I have a CZ 550 that Mark Penrod re-chambered from .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott that is an absolute joy to shoot. It has a beefy stock with a large footprint and a Decelerator pad and is pleasant to shoot. One of my buddies had one that was an older Win M70 Super Express (but still CRF) that was re-chambered from .458 Win Mag that was a beast to shoot. The most unpleasant rifle I have ever fired, it weighed about 8 lbs and had a small, compared to the CZ's, footprint and one of those hard red Winchester pads, just a nasty little brute, guess that's why he no longer has it.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Reminder- Axiom 1-Please memorize this! Unless you hit the brain or spinal column, or Blow them up, EVERYTHING runs away or may continue to try and kill you independent of caliber utilized! Sometimes amazingly far!
Axiom 2. A .50 BMG through the hoof or paw usually wont stop em! Shot placement counts more than caliber.
Axiom 3- Pay attention to Axiom 1 and 2.
-Rob

Very well said, Rob!

Interesting. Mine is a CZ. It is very mild. I got it after shooting a 450 Ackley. I was surprised at how mild it was for such a powerful cartridge.

Must be design, weight and pad.

My 500 Jeffery is mild too, just a pussycat in the recoil department ... Not!!!

But really, it's fine shooting offhand ... just get a firm hold and don't fight the recoil.