The Accurate Reloading Forums
416, 458, 470, and 500 AR - the line of AR rounds - dialup warning
18 October 2007, 01:19
boom stick416, 458, 470, and 500 AR - the line of AR rounds - dialup warning
Is this the "Mini Gibbs" with Gibbs performance
or a "Mini" 500 Jeffery
18 October 2007, 01:20
jeffeosso"reference standard"
18 October 2007, 01:22
boom stickquote:
tolerable recoil... my 500JEffe requries 30-35 more grains of powder to do the same thing.
18 October 2007, 01:34
boom stickJeffeossos range results from today from previous page for reference.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ha! yeah, boomie, it is
load safe in my guns, looked fine, etc etc, standard warning on using ANY loads you get off the internet
all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 88deg F, 90%humidity
ALL pressure signs look GREAT ... I will be pushing these a little more, just to "find out"
Primers still look great...
remember, the target for the 500ar with 600gr bullets is 2150... we CLOBBER that
500 AR - 600gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel
h335
90gr 1921fps
92gr 2134fps Est 92.5 at 2175 is THE 600gr load
93gr 2216fps
95gr 2240fps
96gr 2318fps
win748
92gr 1865fps
94gr 2091fps
96gr 2149fps ..again target load
458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel
h335
77gr 2185fps
79gr 2211fps
81gr 2281fps
82gr 2302fps
win748
78gr 2026fps
80gr 2115fps
81gr 2152fps
82gr 2184fps
Perhaps the 748 isn't my powder of choice, however, all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...
that being said, the 458 AR at 2300 is CERTAINLY tops for most folks, and at 2200, its mild pressure. the loads on the h335 in the 500AR and all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (7 or LESS)
18 October 2007, 01:41
mstarlingJeffe,
Again ... not loading data but a point of reference.
.458 AR, 22" Douglas barrel, Fed 215's, 425 gr Rhino's, 85.0 gr H335, 3.354" OAL ... 2343 fps.
No pressure sign, relatively mild recoil, BIG noise. SD was not great as third rnd was slow. Accuracy at 50 = 3 rds cutting each other (2.5x scope).
Mike
--------------
DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ...
Knifemaker,
http://www.mstarling.com 18 October 2007, 01:59
ConDamn this 458AR load data is killin' me ... at least 4 months until we're firing
Cheers...
Con
18 October 2007, 02:00
jeffeossoMike,
thanks!@! i added to ammoguide.com!
Con
sorry mate....
can't get midway .458 ab barrels down under?
bit heavy, but shoot very well..
jeffe
18 October 2007, 02:19
Conquote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Con
sorry mate....
can't get midway .458 ab barrels down under?
bit heavy, but shoot very well..
jeffe
Nope ... unfortunately not on the A&B barrels. S&F is finding things are tightening real fast from your end. I'm just dithering whether to get a cheap Australian made Sprinter barrel for an M17 "test mule" rifle and delay the "proper" Ruger build a little longer ... but considering we're still awaiting the reamer ... I dont want the "proper" hunting rifle delayed as we'll be back out and chasing Sambar deer once the weather starts to cool next April-May.
The load data you've presented for the 458AR however tempts me to try AR2206H (H4895) and the slower RL15 and AR2208 (Varget). Boy are we gonna have fun ... as if its faster powder it likes ... I've got BM2 (Benchmark), AR2219 (H322), BM1 (you guys dont get it) and AR2207 (H4198) just waiting for it.
Itchin' to play!!!
Cheers...
Con
18 October 2007, 02:57
mstarlingOut of my 22" bbl, RL-15 was too slow with 500 gr Woodleighs. I think this caliber needs a faster powder than that.
The following RL-15 data demonstrates this, I think:
Load Velocity ES MAD
78.0 gr 2020.9 25.0 8.9
79.0 gr 2020.1 1.1 0.5
(again FED 215s, OAL = 3.350)
The extra grain of powder did not yield additional velocity but made it very consistent.
Mike
--------------
DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ...
Knifemaker,
http://www.mstarling.com 18 October 2007, 05:28
ConMike,
Was the RL-15 compressed in those loads? Is it possibly a chronograph error?
Have you tried Varget (AR2208) which is a touch faster than RL-15? Looks from your data that RL-15 may indeed be the slowest we can go. Nice to have a boundary on the slow side.
Cheers...
Con
18 October 2007, 05:51
jeffeossoCon,
h380, 414, blc2, 760, and rl15 have all been a touch too slow, with the short barrels most of us have been using... i STRUGGLED with this on the 550 express....
then spoke with George, and his use of rel7 on the 470 capstick, and that i got great speeds from the 458 winmag with powder that FAST....
right now, it looks like h335, i4895, and wc844 (us surplus powder) burn right in there together and KICK BUTT
jeffe
18 October 2007, 05:54
mstarlingDon't think it's a chrono error ... not three rounds worth taken on the same day as other data that made sense. Have seldom seen this effect save when the powder is just too slow. Interesting that you just get a bigger muzzle flash
Cases were not overly full. May be slightly compressed but not severely. Barrel length may be a real issue with powder in this burn rate range. I think H335 is a better choice and I suspect even faster than that would be OK.
Mike
--------------
DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ...
Knifemaker,
http://www.mstarling.com 18 October 2007, 06:51
ConOkay ... thanks guys. In the past with a 458WinMag ... AR2207 (H4198 which is in the RL-7 class) was the bee's knees with 350gr Hornady but topped out with the 500gr at just under 2000fps. A powder known as AR2206 (H4895 predecessor and 3% faster than what's your H4895) was the better poweder in my 458WinMag with 500gr, hitting 2070fps with ease and low pressures. Varget (AR2208) was too slow.
So, I'm trying to "guess-timate" from past experience.
If the ideal powder proves to be between H4198 and H4895 ... then we're set as we have 3 powders in the ADI line that will fill that niche ... and two are BenchMark powders with fine granules that can be really packed in!
Cheers...
Con
18 October 2007, 18:08
jeffeossoh335 seems to be the one to start with... i won't waste any more time on much slower powders for em....
say, HARRY... your barrel is still 25" right?
bet i can hit 2400 EASY with that
18 October 2007, 23:45
boom stickIs anyone gunna rechamber a take-down Browning BLR 450 marlin to 458 AR for use of 45-70 bullets???
seems a cost effective way though uglyesque to get an extra 500 fps. with a ream job and new dies.
19 October 2007, 01:12
Hog Killerquote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
Is anyone gunna rechamber a take-down Browning BLR 450 marlin to 458 AR for use of 45-70 bullets???
seems a cost effective way though uglyesque to get an extra 500 fps. with a ream job and new dies.
Boomie, we will leave that project to you.
19 October 2007, 01:56
boom stickI think I will be content with the 470
19 October 2007, 03:22
tiggertatequote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
h335 seems to be the one to start with... i won't waste any more time on much slower powders for em....
say, HARRY... your barrel is still 25" right?
bet i can hit 2400 EASY with that
Nope, it grew 6" since you last saw it.
31" bolt face to muzzle. I told Tom to leave all the good barrel he could from the blank just so I could see what velocities we could reach. I've intended to shorten it after a while but it's growing on me, to be honest. I may leave it alone.
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
22 October 2007, 02:40
jeffeossowow harry!!
well, we just HAVE to run that over a chrono!!
24 October 2007, 05:37
jeffeossonice -- my midway order status says 2 boxes of hornady 416 rigby have shipped on 10/19 .. might show up tomorrow or thursday!!
yippie, 40 pieces of 500ar when i get a chance to fireform!
25 October 2007, 03:55
jeffeosso2 boxes of hornady brass, delivered today!!
they'll be 500 ARs this weekend!
26 October 2007, 15:21
Frank Martinezquote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
2 boxes of hornady brass, delivered today!!
they'll be 500 ARs this weekend!
Looking forward to the report. I have my rifle ready once the barrels become available.
Frank
26 October 2007, 16:57
jeffeossoFrank
the cases are just waiting their turn.. if you go back a page, well i posted load data .. here's the better results!!
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ha! yeah, boomie, it is
load safe in my guns, looked fine, etc etc, standard warning on using ANY loads you get off the internet
all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 88deg F, 90%humidity
ALL pressure signs look GREAT ... I will be pushing these a little more, just to "find out"
Primers still look great...
remember, the target for the 500ar with 600gr bullets is 2150... we CLOBBER that
500 AR - 600gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel
h335
90gr 1921fps
92gr 2134fps Est 92.5 at 2175 is THE 600gr load
93gr 2216fps
95gr 2240fps
96gr 2318fps
win748
92gr 1865fps
94gr 2091fps
96gr 2149fps ..again target load
458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel
h335
77gr 2185fps
79gr 2211fps
81gr 2281fps
82gr 2302fps
win748
78gr 2026fps
80gr 2115fps
81gr 2152fps
82gr 2184fps
Perhaps the 748 isn't my powder of choice, however, all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...
that being said, the 458 AR at 2300 is CERTAINLY tops for most folks, and at 2200, its mild pressure. the loads on the h335 in the 500AR and all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (7 or LESS)
06 November 2007, 07:47
jeffeossoI just loaded
20 rnds 458 AR with 500gr hornady, looking to top 2300, and might make 2400 ... but, I am telling you, that would be a TOP load,. 2 different powders, working up
i also loaded 20 rnds of 500 AR with 535gr woodleighs
these should knock on 2400 FPS ..
I also loaded 45 to-be-fireformed loads for the 500 gr... some misc rigby brass laying around, and 40 pieces of new hornady rigby.. 1 piece with a .510 bullet, 19pieces with a .475 cast, and 20 pieces with .458 cast ... yeah, i necked up and the .510 neckup didn't look great, and since the brass isn't trimmed, there could be an interference issue.
I'll go shoot saturday or sunday, as the yaahoos have cleared out, now that deer season has started.
man, I am telling you, getting an electornic scale has made loading the giants easier
jeffe
10 November 2007, 03:41
jeffeossoload safe in my guns, looked fine. all warnings on using ANY loads you get off the internet
all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 83deg F, 100%humidity
remember, the target for the 500ar with 535gr bullets is 2350... we CLOBBER that
500 AR - 535gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel
h335
100gr 2390ps
101gr 2425fps
102gr 2456fpsi4895
99gr 2305fps
100gr 2318fps
101gr 2357fps
458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel
h335
83gr 2310fps
84gr 2333fps
85gr 2374fpsI4895
83gr 2181fps
84gr 2222fps
85gr 2250fps
all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...
all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (8 or LESS) this time as well
10 November 2007, 03:44
jeffeossooh, yeah... if one adds 14FPS for chrono distance/delay, that's 2470 and 2388 ... or one grain away... but that would be MAX
jeffe
10 November 2007, 04:33
boom stickas a wise person once said..."THATS FRIGGN' AWESOME!
So the 500 AR can be loaded with hunting levels of 535's @ 2200 and a last one in the mag defensive max round equiv. of a 500 A2...pretty slick el jeffe
All in a handy compact carry weight rig.
11 November 2007, 00:42
Conjeffe,
The suspense in getting our 458ARs built is starting to get to me! But ... it looks like S&F and I will be the first (at this rate) to slap a 300gr ontop and make a flat shooting Sambar/Elk thumper out of the 458AR
I've also convinced a local bullet manufacturer to produce a cheap (AUD$50/100) 450-480gr RN just so we can feed our 458ARs a steady diet for the range.
Cheers...
Con
11 November 2007, 02:02
jeffeossowhoohoo!!! 50cent .458 bullets, of decent weight!!
do not watch the clock mate!!
12 November 2007, 04:30
jeffeossoload safe in my guns, looked fine. all warnings on using ANY loads you get off the internet
all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 81deg F, 85%humidity
470 AR - 500gr woodleighs, 3.35" oal, 23" barrel
h335
83gr 2225fps
84gr 2259fps
85gr 2309fps
86gr 2338fps
458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel
h335
85gr 2374fps
MAX LOAD - DO Not exceedI tried more, but immediatly hit a "flat spot" with no gain. If you want 2400 over a chrono, you'll need a 24" barrel
458 AR
400gr woodliegh PP, 3.25OAL, 23" barrel
h335
82gr 2327fps
85gr 2444fps
86gr 2475fps
87gr 2514fps
88gr 2542fps
MAX LOAD - DO Not exceedI am going to set the 400gr woodies in another .035 to crimp correctly ... I will take an 84gr load 400gr at ~2400 hunting in 3 weeks @3.215" or so.
12 November 2007, 04:37
boom stickYou have a 24" barrel
its stainless
There is wildcat treasure in heaven waiting for you el jeffe
Great work and good luck on the hunt
12 November 2007, 05:07
Conquote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
There is wildcat treasure in heaven waiting for you el jeffe
:
Boomstick,
NO!!! Isn't that what they promise the suicide bombers ... or is it 20 vestal virgins??
You suggesting jeffe detonate that lovely barrel of his in the name of wildcat science?? Mind you ... might be worth is for 20 virgins, but 20 hours later its an empty promise??
Cheers...
Con
12 November 2007, 05:13
jeffeossoCon,
There's a 470 24"er in the works.
12 November 2007, 05:29
mstarlingAll anyone can reasonably say is ... WOW ... and crammed into a standard length action!
The data certainly demonstrates that you pick the velocity you need for the hunt, and load to that. Would seldom be desirable to load to max. Ain't nothing needs THAT much killing.
Congrats, Jeffe! I think you made your initial expectations plus a bunch on the AR line of cartridges.
Mike
--------------
DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ...
Knifemaker,
http://www.mstarling.com 12 November 2007, 05:35
jeffeossoMike,
thanks!! I still think the original target, 500gr at 2200 is a "perfect" hunting load..
load the 500 in the 458 or 470, and the 600 in the 500ar at 2200, and you'll be using your brass for along time
I think that the 400gr .458s are also a nifty and useful load, at 2400, and reasonable pressure..
and if you needed the recoil of 2400fps, you can get there from here
12 November 2007, 05:38
Conjeffe,
I take it the 470AR is Boomsticks??!!?? About time he felt some big bore lovin'
Regarding that 400gr PP load ... at 2500fps and sighted 3.7" high at 100yds ... its only 8" low at 300yds and still hitting like a 30/06 at the muzzle!!
I dropped my donor Ruger into its laminate stock last night for a look see ... very nice with tonnes of wood to inlet a truck axle wide barrel if needed.
I'm getting excited ... luckily the 375/08 is back after having its headspace reset so I have something "odd" to work with until the AR arrives.
Cheers...
Con
12 November 2007, 06:20
WbyPowerCon,
A 375/08
12 November 2007, 07:08
ConWbyPower,
It's considered rude to point and laugh, besides, it kills the fairies and there are lots of them in Sudney
. With excess headspace ... I managed mid 2300's with the Hornady 225gr and AR2207. Now I can get back to it without the primers backing out
. Late it'll be a 375/284 which atleast I have the dies for.
You know ... I'm half considering rebarreling the CZ550 from 416Rigby to 378Wby ... think I need to take an aspirin and have a lie down.
Cheers...
Con
16 November 2007, 23:58
ptaylor
405gr remy bullets backed by 80gr of i4895 gave me a headache this past weekend. I won't have a chance to run it over the chrono until next weekend though. Hopefully the pigs/deer will be more cooperative as well. Had a chance to do a side by side comparison with a CZ 458lott, wow, those CZ's are way to big.
17 November 2007, 00:42
gumboot458....Very good velocities ........That 458 AR 400 gr @ 2400 fps I think would be pretty amazeing and hard to beat for world wide hunting .....I can,t begin to understand why Barnes quit makeing the 400 gr X....My experience with a 458 400 gr bullet @ 2380 avg vel @ about 35 deg f. and a bit more in the summer were that it was an amazeing killer ..and quite manageable ....
.
.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ....