quote:

"The first GSCHV bullet I have ever recovered from a game animal! I Recently shot a 62" horn length Kudubull in the Marken/Baltimore area over a distance of 180 meters with my .375H&H Magnum using a GSCHV 265gr bullet at a MV of just over 2900fps.
It was a perfectly broadsided shot, the bullet broke both large shoulder bones and was recovered under the opposite shoulder's skin. A perfect mushroom with almost all the petals fully in tact - 262.1gr retained weigth or a magnificent 98.9% weight retention after all that hard work! The Kudu dropped in it's tracks. ~ PH Henk Blignaut - 13 May 2007."

What a performance for a premium grade bullet !

"GSCHV bullet" what does it mean?

gerard shultz custom high velocity bulley

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:

quote:

"The first GSCHV bullet I have ever recovered from a game animal! I Recently shot a 62" horn length Kudubull in the Marken/Baltimore area over a distance of 180 meters with my .375H&H Magnum using a GSCHV 265gr bullet at a MV of just over 2900fps.
It was a perfectly broadsided shot, the bullet broke both large shoulder bones and was recovered under the opposite shoulder's skin. A perfect mushroom with almost all the petals fully in tact - 262.1gr retained weigth or a magnificent 98.9% weight retention after all that hard work! The Kudu dropped in it's tracks. ~ PH Henk Blignaut - 13 May 2007."

What a performance for a premium grade bullet!

Congratulations to Gerard for his fantastic bullets and to you Jagter for taking such a magnificent Kudu Bull

Got a photo of him??

quote:

Congratulations to Gerard for his fantastic bullets and to you Jagter for taking such a magnificent Kudu Bull

Got a photo of him??

Please note:
The hunter was PH Henk Blignaut - not myself!

He bought the GSCHV's from myself - I distribute GSC's locally.

PH promised to let me have a photo of the Kudubull - will post it as soon as I get it from him.

Photos of the recovered GSC .375 bullet with weight retention of 98.9%.

Wow,

Those look just like every Barnes TSX I've ever recovered!

Only in a more aerodynamic bullet.

quote:

375H&H Magnum using a GSCHV 265gr bullet at a MV of just over 2900fps.

Might I ask what load he used to get that velocity ? I'm not a expert reloader but struggled to get 210 gr Barnes X in 375 to get close to 3000 fps.

The difference between a drive band bullet and standard bullets.

See the first two items.

Some results.
More results.

That still doesnt give me the load for the 265gr and I'm too lazy too search for it if it was on the website.

For example do you still use S341 or something slower ????

Interesting to see the forces required to make the bullet spin. In the bottom picture you can see the driving bands scraped away to the left of the groove and how the band is curled up on the right side of the groove.

Gerard,

If QuickLoad is anything to go by, the load of 74 grains of S341 pops as follows:

Case fill : 100.3%
Velocity : 2 803 fps
Pressure: 70 000 psi

QuickLoad does not take into account the difference between std & magnum primers.
I know HV bullets operate at lower pressure, but even if the shot-start pressure of 3 336 psi is completely eliminated, it still appears on the high side.

Is this a save load in all actions, especially the softer K98 actions that are prone to lug setback?
We also know that above 65 000 psi the case is the weakest link in the chain.

Warrior

quote:

Information on Handloading the .375 H&H Magnum -

260 gr. Nosler Partition (.375")

Bullet  Powder   Primer   Case      Velocity
Nosler  IMR 4350   WLRM   Winchester  2,707 fps
260 gr.  78.5 gr.
Part.   (Max. Load)

Warrior wrote:

quote:

If QuickLoad is anything to go by, the load of 74 grains of S341 pops as follows:

Case fill : 100.3%
Velocity : 2 803 fps
Pressure: 70 000 psi

The 260 gr. Nosler Partition (.375") is the closest I could get on the Internet to a GSCHV 265gr.

Question:
Why does your Quickload show a casefill of 100.3% for only 74gr of S341 whereas the .375H&H Mag case can indeed go up to 78.5gr when using a 260gr Nosler Part. and per the same source actually still even up to 78gr powder when using a Nosler Part. 300gr bullet?

Chris,
Using a sized and primed case from my .375 that is due to be loaded for the 6th time with 76gr of S341 for 2850fps, I could fit 74gr of S365 (extruded) to the shoulder / neck junction. With S335 (extruded) I could get 77gr to the same level and with S341 (ball) it came to 84gr.

Given that, according to you, I only tell lies, always publish false information and know very little about anything to do with guns and shooting, have a look at what Somchem recommends.

Somchem reloading manual lists under S341, a maximum load of 81gr for a 235gr jacketed bullet and 71gr for a 286gr brass solid. The 375 HV is a 265gr bullet, about mid-way between the above two. That would indicate a maximum load of 76gr and would be applicable to a hybrid jacketed and solid brass bullet in terms of engraving pressure. Engraving pressure with an HV is less than a quarter of that of a smooth bullet and less than a fifth of that of a solid brass bullet.

Typically an HV drive band bullet of .375 will require several grains more powder to generate the equivalent pressure of a smooth bullet and give more speed in return.

Your quest to find something wrong / cast suspicion / follow your agenda fails again.

/

Alf wrote:

quote:

The million dollar question is how Mr. Blignaut got the "2900 fps plus" from his rifle assuming of course he used the S341 ?

First of all Mr Blignaut reported:

quote:

.... using a GSCHV 265gr bullet at a MV of just over 2900fps.

The average velocity of 3 shots over the chronograph out of his rifle was 2906fps according to Mr Blignaut.

His load: 77.3gr of S341 - had it on 77gr at first, but got the best grouping over 100 meters with 77.3gr of S341 powder as his final load.

As usual, the moment you report GS Custom bullets having performed better than what most other bullets would do under similar conditions, the usual old crowd are there with there many questions and ways and means of casting doubt about it all

quote:

If QuickLoad is anything to go by, the load of 74 grains of S341 pops as follows:

Case fill : 100.3%
Velocity : 2 803 fps
Pressure: 70 000 psi

Gerard,

I said "if QuickLoad is anything to go by" ...
Do the modelling in Quickload yourself ...
Then if you get the same answer as me ...
Then we can talk about it ...

If you have done a pressure test on the load, then obviously we can positively reject the answer we are getting from Quickload. Quickload is just a guide and not perfect, but probably the best tool available to reloaders. With quickload as our guide then, we should at least be cautious and that is why I said it appears to be too high. So, it is not my opinion, but QuickLoad's opinion.

The only thing we have to establish here, apart from getting up to that velocity, is to satisfy ourselves that the pressure is not too high for non suspecting reloaders that use this information as gospel.

Warrior

Gentlemen,

Having reloaded for so many cartridges, in so many different rifles, both custom and factory made. I have reached a conclusion that each rifle is a law unto itself.

Some will show signs of pressure below the starting loads shown in some manuals. While others would digest several grains of powder over the maximum published data in reloading books.

We only use published data for reference purposes.

The same goes with velocities obtained in different rifles with the same load.

I remember when we tried several Mannlicher rifles, all brand new, in 270 Winchester. Using Norma 150 grain ammo.

The difference between the slowest barrel and fastest was 150 fps!!?

Hmm- Driving band bullets. What a new concept. Seems like I've got some civil war bullets here with a modern idea imbedded in their design.-Rob

I have said this several times but some people seem to deliberately ignore or do not understand the concept, hey Robgunbuilder? Take a closer look, sometimes there is something new that pops up.

The GS Custom Drive Band Bullet is patented. The patent attorneys would have done a search to determine if we satisfy the requirement of "novelty". Our drive band bullets are not bullets with grooves cut in the shaft at some random depth or with some murky relationship to bearing surface and drive band width. HV, FN and SP bullets are two diameter bullets with the shaft and drive band diameters in precise relationship to the CIP/SAAMI spec of the particular caliber in which the bullet will be used. Before 1997, no other manufacturer made bullets in this manner.

To satisfy the criterion of a drive band bullet as we make it, the total width of the drive bands will be less than the remainder of the shaft of the bullet. The drive band diameter conforms to the requirement of the groove diameter of the barrel and the shaft of a drive band bullet conforms to the bore diameter of the barrel. The ogive terminates at a diameter that conforms to the barrel bore diameter.
See this thread from last year.

quote:

Engraving pressure with an HV is less than a quarter of that of a smooth bullet and less than a fifth of that of a solid brass bullet.

Based on Gerard's above statement of engraving resistance (in psi) the following comparison gives us a guiding light and for illustrative purposes I will use a 270 gr Speer and Barnes-X bullet as the base line, which is as close as I can get to the .375/265 gr HV bullet:


---------------------------------------Base ---- HV bullet
a quarter of a smooth bullet --- 3626 ---- 906.5
a fifth of a solid bullet ------------9427 ---- 1885.4

The program indicates, rightly or wrongly, that the shot start pressure is 3336 psi for the HV bullet. Using Gerard's ratio's we get a lesser figure, but the problem being that we do not get to the same figure, perhaps due to a rough estimate. Nevertheless, let's eliminate a pressure of 3336 as Quickload indicates for the HV bullet, as it seems to be too high as it is close to a conventional bullet when in fact we know its engraving resistance is much lower. So for argument sake, let us assume it is nil.

Based on a load of 77.3 gr S341 Quickload yields a velocity of 2880 fps and 77689 psi.
If we now deduct the 3336 psi from 77689, we still look at a pressure of 74353 psi.
Let us assume Quickload overstates the result by 10% and we deduct another 7435 psi
Then we still get a pressure of 66918 psi, which exceeds the CIP pressure of 62366 psi.
To meet spec we need to come down another 4552 psi or 6.8%.
Magnum primers also increase the peak pressure - we have recorded 100 fps increase in some loads.
But we will ignore this fact for now. We will only concentrate on the relationship of velocity to pressure.

Without actual pressure testing, it seems a fair question to ask, is this not perhaps a HOT load?

Warrior

Chris, would you regard the following as HOT loads too?

(a) 7mm Rem Mag 130gr GSCHV bullet, 67gr of S365 yielding a MV of 3400fps.

(b) 308Win 130gr GSCHV bullet, 47.8gr of S335 yielding a MV of 3200fps.

I am dazzled by some comments..

One thing I do know is that GS Custom bullets are among the best two or three bullets that I have ever used, both in the accuracy department and in the killing department, and in many calibers. They work great in double rifles and do not leave a mess in the bore like the Barnes X do..I have even used them in my English doubles as I have Northforks, no problems and I use them in my Searcy also.

I have not used any GS expanding bullets yet, but, I killed my elephant last week with a 458WM using the gsfn 500g. the recovered bullet penetrated the skull from right to left lodging in the skin behind the left eye. The solid had a slight deformation on one side of the meplat, but, other than that was undamaged. The other shot existed the body after breaking the right shoulder and passing through the lungs; this shot knocked him down, but, he immediatley got to his feet when I shot him with the behind the ear shot described above.

Alf,

quote:

The other strange thing for me is the recommendation of a start load of 74 gr of S341, which I understand but then a velocity cieling limit? How is this derived in terms of a pressure limit? Surely the logical way would be to put a load cieling and not a velocity cieling?

This is another area where we depart from convention. I have taken same caliber rifles to the range for load development and testing, more times than I care to mention. Invariably, identical start loads on three to five rifles of the same caliber, will result in different speeds. As you work up the scale, such a set of rifles will show pressure at different powder levels but at similar speed levels, if barrel lengths are the same. It is quite clear to me that the relationship between maximum pressure and muzzle velocity, is closer than the relationship between maximum pressure and powder charge. A load that is safe in one rifle may blow a primer in another and will always result in more speed as well. However, if you bring the two rifles to the same muzzle velocity with different powder charges, pressure levels between the two will also be closer. Once a powder charge has been decided on, check it by loading and firing the same case with it until the primer pocket loosens. If you get more than five or six loads from a case, pressure is not over the top.

Load data that specify a maximum powder charge always carry the caution that the loads are only applicable to the test barrel used. It makes more sense to me to specify a known safe start load and a maximum speed that should not be exceeded. Such a maximum speed will occur at differing powder levels from rifle to rifle but will be closer to the correct maximum pressure for that rifle than blindly following a stated maximum powder charge.

Would you say that, exceeding listed maximum speeds for a bullet/caliber by 200 or so fps is dangerously over the top or not?

quote:

Then a recommendation of 74gr of RL-15 as a start? each and every load manual puts this load as actually over limit for the SAAMI pressure cieling

Where did you find a manual that lists drive band bullet loads?


Chris,

quote:

Without actual pressure testing, it seems a fair question to ask, is this not perhaps a HOT load?

Of course it is a hot load. It is right at the maximum we recommend. In his rifle, a mild load would be around 2800fps and a start load around 2700fps.

quote:

But we will ignore this fact for now. We will only concentrate on the relationship of velocity to pressure.

Who is "we"? Is somebody helping you again? Your collective thumb sucking remains tiresome but I will give you this: You do stick with your agenda of trying like hell to find any stick to beat GSC with.

Gerard,

Please take your tablets. Nobody is helping me, so please do not lose sleep over trivial matters. There is no aganda, just your paranoia that makes you see things that are not there. This is only for fun.

So your recommendation is then to be at max always. Thanks, that clears the matter up. No problem, that is the way you want it. I do not like to be at at the edge to wring out the last drop of velocity.

The only problem is how HOT do we go - to what extent is it OK/advisable to exceed CIP/Saami specs. Can you give us the pressure level of the bullet/load combination under discussion?

Warrior

Chris,

quote:

So your recommendation is then to be at max always.

Three step swindle all in one short sentence. When did I say that?

Gerard,

2900 fps with 265 gr HV ...

When is a HOT load too hot?
When is a HOT load too mild?
When is a HOT load just hot enough?

Warrior

quote:

Of course it is a hot load. It is right at the maximum we recommend.

Gerard,

You have another chance to explain this (without the use of a dictionary please). Please focus on the 2 operative words .... HOT ... and ... MAXIMUM. Perhaps you can start off by defining the 2 words first before explaining the essence of the whole matter.

Warrior

Gerard:
Will you please pm me when you can?

Chris,

quote:

Nobody is helping me,

So what's with the "we" stuff then. Time for a lesson in English. Which is it?

we (w)
pron.
Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another.
Used instead of I, especially by a writer wishing to reduce or avoid a subjective tone.
Used instead of I, especially by an editorialist, in expressing the opinion or point of view of a publication's management.
Used instead of I by a sovereign in formal address to refer to himself or herself.
Used instead of you in direct address, especially to imply a patronizing camaraderie with the addressee.

quote:

When is a HOT load too hot?
When is a HOT load too mild?
When is a HOT load just hot enough?

When you ask questions that are clearer than mud.

quote:

You have another chance to explain this

OK. Three step swindle all in one short sentence. When did I say that?

Gerard,

You are losing your concentration again.

Warrior

You stated that I always reccommend to load to maximum. Where did I say that? You have this habit of sidestepping an issue when you make mistakes.

quote:

Chris,

quote:
Without actual pressure testing, it seems a fair question to ask, is this not perhaps a HOT load?
Of course it is a hot load. It is right at the maximum we recommend. In his rifle, a mild load would be around 2800fps and a start load around 2700fps.

Gerard,

I specifically questioned the load that produced 2900 fps with the 265 gr HV bullet.
You answer, as above, was ... " Of course it is a hot load." [I take this as confirmation]
Then you go further in the affirmative ... "It is right at the maximum we recommend"
The logical deduction from this is then, that it is ok at that level - i.e. at maximum.
Now if it is a "safe" maximum according to you, then the question both Alf and myself
have been asking here, how does it relate to the CIP maximum, and how wise is it if it does
exceed the CIP spec. Quickload indicates a gross over stepping of the CIP spec, and yet
you condone it.

There is nothing sinister about this - just a simple and civil question about loading to the max.
The fact that you always recommend the use of magnum primers, underscore the fact that you try to
ring out as much velocity as posible, and invariably if that is combined with a full load with
generally faster powders, it moves you to the MAX position. That is what you want (in line with the "high velocity" concept).

The question that you are avoiding here is, what is this MAX save position relative to CIP.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:

quote:

"The first GSCHV bullet I have ever recovered from a game animal! I Recently shot a 62" horn length Kudubull in the Marken/Baltimore area over a distance of 180 meters with my .375H&H Magnum using a GSCHV 265gr bullet at a MV of just over 2900fps.
It was a perfectly broadsided shot, the bullet broke both large shoulder bones and was recovered under the opposite shoulder's skin. A perfect mushroom with almost all the petals fully in tact - 262.1gr retained weigth or a magnificent 98.9% weight retention after all that hard work! The Kudu dropped in it's tracks. ~ PH Henk Blignaut - 13 May 2007."

What a performance for a premium grade bullet !

While the information makes for good reference, the manner in which it is presented reminds me of a shameless promotion. Just the facts please.

While I have no connections with Swift, I must report that I have recovered 350 grain .416 Swift A Frame bullets from buffalo that retained 98.4% of original weight.

Chris,

quote:

The fact that you always recommend the use of magnum primers, underscore the fact that you try to ring out as much velocity as posible,

quote:

and invariably if that is combined with a full load with generally faster powders,

quote:

it moves you to the MAX position.

A perfect three step swindle. This must be one of the best Triple Hornswoggles you have come up with lately.

1. The false statement of "fact": We do not reccommend magnum primers for speed, we recommend magnum primers for the additional initial pressure they generate. This starts the bullet earlier and artificially creates a bigger volume for when powder starts burning. The further out the bullet is, when powder starts burning, the lower the pressure and the more powder can be used to drive the bullet while remaining within pressure limits.

2. The skewed supportive statement: We recommend that powder be selected to give a full case at the speed selected, because that gives the best accuracy, not because it gives more speed. We state on our website that the reloader selects the speed he wants and then chooses the appropriate powder. Here is the specific quote "Select a propellant that will reduce airspace in the cartridge case as much as possible. The ideal is to have the bullet seated touching the powder charge. Propellants at the fast end of the spectrum for a given bullet weight tend to give better results."

3. The false, preconceived conlusion, designed to suit your agenda: You fail to understand that GSC drive band bullets, that are started with conventional bullet start loads, will produce less speed than conventional bullets and will often not even seal the case. Close to a similar weight, conventional bullet, max load is usually a good place to start a drive band bullet but it remains a start load. Just as you would up the powder charge when going to a lighter bullet of similar construction, because of the lower resistance to acceleration, the powder charge for drive band bullets must be increased, for the same reason.

This does not mean that we recommend maximum HV bullet loads across the board. The reloader chooses what pressure level he wants to work with and accepts the extra speed that he gains with HV or FN bullets as a bonus, whatever it is.

Your statement: "So your recommendation is then to be at max always." was just another in a long line of lies and deceptions regarding GSC bullets and designed to further your agenda of derogatory remarks. Additionally, it creates the false impression that I ALWAYS recommend max loads. Why don't you go and harrass some other bullet manufacturers who have very real and proven problems, instead of trying to conjure up these imaginary faults GSC bullets have in your tiny, despicable little mind.

You remain a fully grown

While these bullets seem to be very accurate and have great terminal ballistics, I have had a hard time trying to get extra velocity out of my 375. My max load with a Swift A=Frame was about75gr. of Re 15. That gives me 2730 out of a 22 inch barrel. I tried 75 gr using the GSC HV and it was way over the top on pressure signs. Heavy recoil, muzzle blast, HARD bolt lift, flattened primer and shiney mark on base of brass where brass had flowed into the ejector as pressure was way over the top. Velocity was about what the Swift was. Yes every gun is a world unto itself. You can't say that just because there are driving bands that the pressure will always be lower. As always start well below and work up. BE CAREFUL. A friend with a pressure gun confirmed that somewhere under 75 grains was warm enough for maximum pressure in his gun also. I do have friends who get way over velocities with the GSHV's. My rifle does not. Your milage may vary is good advice. Good hunting.