quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Doubtful, because the first thing needed is for Ruger to offer just one action length bolt rifle, in push feed, with press checkering on a birch stock. Then continue F'ed up ideas for 50 more years and ultimately become a foreign owned importer of Japanese rifles and struggle to regain its reputation. Not likely.

The irony is that pre64 M70 rifle is no better, feature for feature than what is expected from the NC Winchesters.

Dang! 4bore - Tells us what u really think about it!

I am not impressed by pre-64's either. Good guns but not better than what's offered today in CRF. I have a pre-64, supergrade, in .458 WM if someone offered me $3000 for it I would need shipping instructions. I also have a PF mod. 70 in .458 shoots just as well as the pre-64. Best of all is my custom Savage in. 458 WM, that's the gun I will keep. It will out shoot and out last the Mod. 70's.....JMHO....Tom

I know of One Zambian PH who ordered a $13,500 synthetic stocked Echols' Legend in 375 Ruger.

Ruger has already sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past 98. It is here to stay.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Most of you are missing the point. Its a pristine pre-64 SUPERGRADE in a relatively rare caliber. Thats a collectable gun, not a SHOOTER. Personally that price is a little steep as I'd estimate it at $6,000, but if it is unfired in the original box and with all the papers and tags well $8,000 is a possibility. You think this is expensive? Try collecting Lugers, Colts or REAL US MILITARY COMBAT SHOTGUNS. I was just shown a original, pristine Fat barrel American eagle luger for a mere $15,000. A nice REAL cartridge counter Luger goes for $50K or so. Borchardts for $75K. Trust me the economic downturn had no major effect on collectable guns period! Although a lot of guys who needed money sold some fabulous stuff way too cheaply. It was a buyers market! Remember all that money you lost from your 401K's? You would have been wise to have put ALL of IT in collectable guns. That pre-64 win will appreciate in value well past $8500 in 5 years. You'll be lucky to get $600 in that same timeframe for your RSM. Oh yes, those fabulous customs from the great makers, you'll be lucky to lose just 50%.of what you paid for it.BTW if you invested your money in registered,licensed machineguns, you would have seen your money grow by about 300% in the last 5 years.-Rob

+100,000

That's what I've lost in the stock market.

NEVER lost money on a gun...

I have very nice custom rifles and "beaters". I love my custom guns however I tend to use my "beaters" quite a bit more. That Ruger Alaskan is a great "beater" almost right out of the box. I do not care for the FAT forearm but that is personal preference. As I have said before, when Winchester discontinued the stainless classic in 375 H&H, it left the door wide open to Ruger for this class of economical firearm under $1,000.00.
I would like to see Winchester offer the stainless classic in a 416 Remington.
Winchester brings back the stainless classic then you have a choice between the Win and Ruger; Your personal preference for a all weather (CRF) economical large game rifle off the shelf.

EZ

I'll second that, a 20-22incb bbl stainless, synthetic M70 in 375HH could easily be my first ss rifle. As you say a beater?

Then,...I might prefer a wood stock. I have got some rust on my rifles while traveling in a case, but the wood has never been a problem. Is there a problem with wood stocks? Besides getting scratched up a bit? I would prefer a beat up piece of wood over plastic. Then that over molded Ruger stock did feel good, shame no HH offered there.

My friends have had problems with corrosion of Remington triggers and Ruger 77 firing pin springs. I think the current M70 has gone with stainless for all those internal parts. Its not that hard to keep rust off the external parts -

... more OT ramblings ...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

Ruger has already sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past 98. It is here to stay.

I call BS on that one..... The 375 H&H is ubiquitous, and has a firm following. But that doesn't take away from the 375 Ruger.

John

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I know of One Zambian PH who ordered a $13,500 synthetic stocked Echols' Legend in 375 Ruger.

Ruger has already sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past 98. It is here to stay.

One of the forum members has a Legend in 375 Wby and that would be just as rare a bird in an Echols Legend as the 375 Ruger.

And of course it would be expected that Ruger would make a lot more 375 Rugers than Holland and Holland make bolt action 375s. Perhaps you have not compared the prices and waiting times between an H&H bolt gun and a Ruger bolt gun.

On the other hand if Ruger brought out a 300 Ruger and you said that sold as many rifles in one year as Wby had made 30/378s in total, that would be valid because virtually every factory rifle sold in 30/378 Wby is a Wby rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Most of you are missing the point. Its a pristine pre-64 SUPERGRADE in a relatively rare caliber. Thats a collectable gun, not a SHOOTER. Personally that price is a little steep as I'd estimate it at $6,000, but if it is unfired in the original box and with all the papers and tags well $8,000 is a possibility. You think this is expensive? Try collecting Lugers, Colts or REAL US MILITARY COMBAT SHOTGUNS. I was just shown a original, pristine Fat barrel American eagle luger for a mere $15,000. A nice REAL cartridge counter Luger goes for $50K or so. Borchardts for $75K. Trust me the economic downturn had no major effect on collectable guns period! Although a lot of guys who needed money sold some fabulous stuff way too cheaply. It was a buyers market! Remember all that money you lost from your 401K's? You would have been wise to have put ALL of IT in collectable guns. That pre-64 win will appreciate in value well past $8500 in 5 years. You'll be lucky to get $600 in that same timeframe for your RSM. Oh yes, those fabulous customs from the great makers, you'll be lucky to lose just 50%.of what you paid for it.BTW if you invested your money in registered,licensed machineguns, you would have seen your money grow by about 300% in the last 5 years.-Rob

Rob is 100% spot on the money!!!! COLLECTOR is the key word on this rifle. Not whether it is comparable to the new ones, classics, or anything else!

I am 110% Winchester or nothing at all. I have plenty of other JUNK, called remingtons and others, but nothing goes with me to the field if it don't say Winchester on it somewhere, period! Of course all my series of cartridges are on Winchesters too. I have a few Pre 64s, and I personally do not think it is any better than our 1990s Classics or even the new ones from Columbia SC. Todays metal if nothing else far exceeds what was done Pre 1964 anyway. I am not a collector, and I would not pay the sums demanded for Pre 64s today, but they are for the collectors and I collect very little besides Winchester rifles to go to the field, all classics, all control feed guns. I have several Ruger rifles, and truly do like them, but they are not a Winchester M70 by any stretch.

Rob, excellent job explaining what a Pre 64 is all about! Can't be done any better than that!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

Ruger has already sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past 98.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

Ruger has already sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past 98. It is here to stay.

I call BS on that one..... The 375 H&H is ubiquitous, and has a firm following. But that doesn't take away from the 375 Ruger.

John

READ what he said .. he didn't say that there was more rugers sold this year than 375HH ...

he said RUGER sold more 375 rugers than HH has sold 375HH ... which COULD be true, as HH is not a volume outfit, are they?

CZ certainly has sold more 505 Gibbs than Gibbs has made, and more 500 Jeffery than Schuler OR jeffery made ... and more 450 rigby than rigby (lol, that one's a LARK, aint it?) ... I have no doubt that CZ has sold more 375HH than ANY other maker .. they make more, sell for less, and market in more countries...

Will HH do a 375 ruger? we went through this about purdey .... send your money, they'll chamber whatever you want in whatever you can pay for.

Jeff:

Still BS! Even though they are very pricey I would bet that H&H had built WAY more .375 H&Hs in the last hundred years than Ruger has built .375 Rugers in the last year or two. The .375 Ruger is primarily and American thing and truth be known, here in the US, only a very small number of rifles are sold over thirty caliber. I am with you on the Gibbs and Jeffery though.

Jeff, I think Wayne Jacobsen is coming through here on New Years day on his way down to the show. Our weather is pretty iffy but if he can get here, I am going to shoot his .600 OK. If you are still interested in that eight pound can of TAC, I was thinking about asking him to bring it on down to the show and you could pick it up there. Let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

READ what he said .. he didn't say that there was more rugers sold this year than 375HH ...

he said RUGER sold more 375 rugers than HH has sold 375HH ... which COULD be true, as HH is not a volume outfit, are they?

CZ certainly has sold more 505 Gibbs than Gibbs has made, and more 500 Jeffery than Schuler OR jeffery made ... and more 450 rigby than rigby (lol, that one's a LARK, aint it?) ... I have no doubt that CZ has sold more 375HH than ANY other maker .. they make more, sell for less, and market in more countries...

Will HH do a 375 ruger? we went through this about purdey .... send your money, they'll chamber whatever you want in whatever you can pay for.

Sorry Jeff, I had to read a little into his statement. If I took what he said literally, it would be true as H&H had made no 375 Rugers.

H&H used to be a more down to earth gun maker before WWII, and supplied a greater number of guns and gunsmithing services compared to the ultra-high end guns that we see today.

I think the 375 ruger is a good idea, whether it will usurp the H&H is a longshot. Having crawled through some icky crap in my time, I can appreciate a short bbl heavy gun.

And if you like the Ruger, who gives a crap what anyone thinks. I say this as a proud owner of the 350 Remington Magnum.

John

.

What RGB said, plus one!

The Old Model 70 was a hand fitted rifle, and they had a marvelous reputation (still do) for reliability. Compare their American competition: the Model 30 Remington. Likely more custom hunting rifles have been made in this country on OM 70's than anything else. They are still the standard, and will be forever.

That's just how it is.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:


Still BS! Even though they are very pricey I would bet that H&H had built WAY more .375 H&Hs in the last hundred years than Ruger has built .375 Rugers in the last year or two.

Dave. According to Ruger and industry figures, they sold over 8000 375 Ruger rifles in the first year alone. Do you have any money you care to wager that says H&H has made more 375 H&H rifles than that?

I am not argueing whether or not one cartridge is "better" than the other but I will stick by what I said in my feature in Rifle magazine. The 375 Ruger offers the same advantages over the 375 H&H as the 300 Win does over the 300 H&H.

458Win:

I guess that I would have to say that I don't believe those numbers. Maybe 800 but I would find it very hard to believe that Ruger sold 8000 .375 Rugers. That translates to roughly six or seven hundred Rugers a month mostly here in the USA? Do you believe that?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
458Win:

I guess that I would have to say that I don't believe those numbers. Maybe 800 but I would find it very hard to believe that Ruger sold 8000 .375 Rugers. That translates to roughly six or seven hundred Rugers a month mostly here in the USA? Do you believe that?

Dave,
There were a lot of .375 Rugers sold up here in Canada but maybe not in the first year as it took awhile for them to show up because of the U.S. demand.

Amazing how this thread has wandered away from the initiating post. No wonder Obama got elected in the US.-Rob

I bought my pre64 M70 in 375 H&H in 03 for $1895 from Dave Riffle. He's now selling them for double that. 100% appreciation in 6 years? Should have bought a dozen of em! And you get to shoot em too! BTW somebody said they were only 3 down, not so! Mine is 4 down.

Still, you buy a nice one, put a good synthetic stock on it for AK or BC, seal the mortises in your wood stock for Africa and Talleys x2, Leupy 1.5x5s x2 and adjust your irons. You then have one of the most utilitarian and reliable rifles ever made anywhere and it will last your lifetime and then some.

The cost of all of this is within reach of anyone who is serious about rifles and hunting and nothing now available, in factory form, will beat those old 70s in .375 "ouch and ouch" for about any hunting you can think of.

Well "Poop" Dewey,

rumor has it that Ford sold more Focus's last year than Jaguar did XK's; and for less money. And, the Focus will do the speed limit just as easy. Of course, the resale may not be as good down the road, but if cheap purchase price is all you care about, go with the ruger. Esthetics and class aren't for everybody.

NO standard production ruger has or ever will have the investment value of a P64 Model 70. NO 375 ruger chambered firearm will likely ever have the resale value of a 375 H&H.

The question you all should be asking is: will ruger still be offering the 375 ruger for sale in five years...?

Rich

I don't see what your comment has to do with what I posted as I was agreeing with the poster before me.

I certainly did not imply that any Ruger would ever have the investment value of a P-re 64 Mod. 70, especially the highly desirable and very practical .375H&H and .338WM versions. The comment on chambering relative to resale values is speculative and nobody really knows.

I think that the .375 Ruger is here to stay and will become even more popular in regions, such as BC, where it is an appropriate choice. I don't really care, as with two P-64 Mod. 70-.375H&H rifles, plus a dozen other classic rifles in medium and big bores in my safes, I have no intention of buying one.

My buddy just came by on Christmas Eve, to show me the Ralf Martini custom .375 Ruger on a 1933 "Postal" Oberndorf Mauser he got from me when I disposed of a half-dozen fine actions, Brno 21/22s, the Obie, Brno ZGs, P-64s and so forth from a boxful in one of my safes.

I would have done another 9.3x62, but, as he has a 9.3x64 on a ZG action, also from my stash, he went with the Ruger and is very happy with it.....given the ...esthetics and class... of Ralf's rifles, one would expect this.

H&H rifles, wouldn't own one, too much money for what they are and a Martini custom is a far superior rifle. I sold my two minty classic British guns and would not buy another at today's inflated prices. But, each to his own, I happen to like and use P-64 Mod. 70s in magnum rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
458Win:

I guess that I would have to say that I don't believe those numbers. Maybe 800 but I would find it very hard to believe that Ruger sold 8000 .375 Rugers. That translates to roughly six or seven hundred Rugers a month mostly here in the USA? Do you believe that?

8000, and say 6000 of those sold in the states, which means 120 per state, or 10 per month per state ..

10 per month, for year? that aint hard to believe, at all. I bet there's more 45/70 handirifles sold thank this

Dave, seriously, the rage of new cartridges, in an affordable package, that's already been blooded in africa and publicised?

and its so popular one can't find the TENS of thousands of brass that's been made...

really, guys, stop fighting numbers .. numbers can be disputed, but never "fought"/


Dave,
I'd love the powder, thank you .. what do we need to do to sort that out?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The question you all should be asking is: will ruger still be offering the 375 ruger for sale in five years...?

Rich

What's your bet, Rich? If Ruger will be making these in the fall of 2013 (5 years after intro)? It's been a decade since the "Wsm/rum fad" started.. and THOUSANDS of rifles are still being chambered and sold in them.

the Question is, How much do you want to bet, or what, that ruger is still making the 375 ruger in 2013? Caveat - If guns are outlawed or require special licensing to buy (aka government interference in private ownership) then the bet is off.

What's your terms? If ruger is still making them, you buy me a brand spanking new ruger 375 ruger, whichever model I want...

and if you win, a winchester (since the discussion IS comaring them) ever starts AND IS STILL MAKING THEM AS PRODUCTION, i'll buy you a brand new winchester 375 hh (not custom shop) .. if they are still making them ...

Will a ruger go up like a pre-64? In *MY* mind, i wouldn't own a pre64 (unless a shooter in 358 winchester, but that's about the 358) when the new, and FAR superior new models are available.

Yes, i have next to zero nostalgia

The market is so small for these guns over 30 caliber that unless Ruger markets this product internationally and Hornady supports that effort that I see a traditional drop in sales for this rifle / cartridge combo.
Sort of like a new hyped up car hitting the market . They cannot get enough of them to sell to begin with and then things taper off.
I think a lot of the big bore fans have acquired their 375 & 416 Rugers and the pipeline is filling up.
Not like buying your first deer rifle (WSM's and RUM's)!
This is a real niche market. Probably less than 1/10 of 1% of the rifles sold are in these big calibers.
The Ruger bean counters will be making the decisions in 5 years.

EZ

One of the things not brought up yet in this discusion, and an important one as I see it, is the buyer. The folks that are actually doing the gun purchases are a little younger than the folks that are remotely interested in a pre-64 Winchester. And that younger generation could care less about what is considered classic by us older shooters. They want faster, lighter, and cheaper. Most of them look at all the prestine pre-64s on the wall, and ask why they are so expensive when you can buy a brand new Ruger for under a grand. They don't see the value in the Winchesters. In fact, most ask about something like a new WSM of some caliber. Most here that treasure their pre-64 ALREADY have their pre-64. What keeps gun companies in business is new sales; and the new sales are going to the kids that don't yet have a .375. AND those buyers want the latest thing going.
And when your kids finally get there hands on your prized Winchesters after your all gone; they just may trade them in for a brand new Savage in .204, with a accu-trigger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno, one of my nephews (the one that is dying to go to Africa) lusts after a pre-64 in 375H&H. He's 23, and knows the brands and calibers pretty well. He knows he will probably have to have one built, but that is part of the dream for him. Every day working rifles, he says CZ.

Rich

Ya. . . . . that's part of my point. See, buying a pre-64 does absolutely nothing for Winchester the gun maker. It's already been sold and Winchester will not profit from anyone purchasing a pre-64 from someone. Cuz it won't come from them. Don't get me wrong; I like the old Winchesters. My Dad a has a few that have never been fired, that I will get someday. There's several folks out there that just go goo-goo when they see an old Winchester 1886 in .45 caliber. But very few own them, and even fewer hunt with them. But that's not the point. I think Ruger has found a nitch that will endure quite well.
But- NO, the Ruger will never attain the status of the pre-64 Winchester. It's a different animal. Made as a utility rifle, not a classic work of art. But then again, who said it had to compete in that arena?

Come on fella's ???? The pre 64 a work of art? I have a few my self. nice clean lines, functions well and actually very utilitarian not unlike a Ruger of its day.
You want to see works of art. Go the the SCI or DSC. You will see works of art.

The model 70 was and is a working rifle. The pre 64 standard rifle wood is not much more than barn yard lumber. It is not rust blued.

I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

EZ

Jeez- Some of you guys totally miss the point. What makes a collectable is "RARITY". Winchester didnt make that many pre-64 SUPERGRADES period, then they STOPPED MAKING THEM PERIOD! 2. They were nice guns! INSTANT COLLECTABLE! See 1950's-mid 60's Corvettes for example. Same thing! If Ruger stopped making .375 rugers tomorrow, in 10 years they would also be collectable. For 5 years the price would drop, then begin to climb rapidly. If its perceived to be nice and unobtanium, its a collectable and the rarer the better. The rarer the bird the higher the price. Add in a little cult status, like Jeffery Doubles for example and the sky's the limit! Dont kid yourselves either, there are lots of people with more money than brains around too. Just watch a few Gunbroker auctions for WWII Lugers to prove my point( can you say feeding frenzy)?Its irrelevant which gun is actually better, all it needs is name recognition,perceived quality, rarity, unobtanium factor and prices soar! Clever dealers have even learned to manipulate some of these factors. Go buy a machine gun, ANY MACHINEGUN, and wait 5 years. See if it hasn't apprteciated more than your stock portfolio! They are cool, they are rare, they aint making any more in the US, it doesnt matter that they are ugly pieces of crap for the most part and you cant actually hit anything with most of them and they actually suck except for CQB, They have CHARISMA. The skys the limit!
Will a .375 Ruger ever see $8500, well could be, but not for a long long time.-Rob

quote:

The rarer the bird the higher the price.

For the most part I fully agree.....however rare isn't the only requirement.....it must also be WANTED

The old Marlin "goose gun" with the 36" barrel is actually rare...or at least hard to find.....but that alone don't make it high priced....it's just not wanted!

Yep, I'm waiting for my mod 70 classic with BOSS to appreciate to $8500, but I bet I'll have to wait a little longer.

John

Hmmm, arn't the Salvage model 340s in .30-30 getting a little rare. Maybe one with a side mounted Tasco 6.5-24 scope!