I always wondered with the 577 T-Rex videos on this site whether the gun actually had that much recoil, or if the people were just holding it wrong. Found out today when I let a friend of my brother shoot my 600 Overkill:




http://youtu.be/YBhCt1KM4vQ

I couldn't see your picture or video but the answer is both! I have had a few refuse to listen and really hurt themselves shooting mine!

Matthew

I've shot the one Frank Martinez owns. Once, full house load w/o the break. It got my attention.

Poor form , he's standing up straight instead of leaning into it !! That makes a big difference .

I like the looks of that rifle in that it looks light in weight for ease of carry & w/o a brake it looks in the pic.
However---I never let a rockie to these type large bore guns shoot my 600's until I'm sure they can handle it after I've showed & tought them how to do it. A 600 Overkilll is like few other rifles that are carried for hunting. You can get by having a little lesson fun on someone with varmaint calibers like 458's & such but an Overkill can do too much damage to both gun & shooter.
I wouldn't want to see my $10k rifle bouncing around on the ground as I've seen with others who let rookies shoot theirs.

I updated the link to the picture, so hopefully everyone can see it now.

I've let about a dozen people shoot it so far, and he is the first one it got away from. I tell everyone to hold on as tight as they can with both hands, pull back hard into their shoulder and lean into it. I'm guessing he didn't follow a few of those instructions. I've also only had people shoot a reduced load of 140 grains of IMR 4350 with a 900 grain bullet. Does about 1700 fps out of that short barrel. Most powerful I've shot is 160 grains of powder at around 2000 fps.

Oh, and the rifle has a 21 inch barrel, weighs 8 3/4 lbs. and doesn't have a muzzle brake.

quote:

Oh, and the rifle has a 21 inch barrel, weighs 8 3/4 lbs. and doesn't have a muzzle brake.

Now that's a proper Cape Buff rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by 600 Overkill:
I like the looks of that rifle in that it looks light in weight for ease of carry & w/o a brake it looks in the pic.
However---I never let a rockie to these type large bore guns shoot my 600's until I'm sure they can handle it after I've showed & tought them how to do it. A 600 Overkilll is like few other rifles that are carried for hunting. You can get by having a little lesson fun on someone with varmaint calibers like 458's & such but an Overkill can do too much damage to both gun & shooter.
I wouldn't want to see my $10k rifle bouncing around on the ground as I've seen with others who let rookies shoot theirs.

It seems a lot of owners of these big bores seem to get pleasure out of others peoples pain.

I have a friend with a 577T he is always trying to get me to shoot it. I said only if I get to load the cartridge I'll be using and carry it out the door to the range.

I willing to try a light to med load but not a full power one.

He seems to like to see people get slammed with full power ones.

I have a bad rotator cuff I sure wouldn't want to make it worse just to say I did it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 600 Overkill:
I like the looks of that rifle in that it looks light in weight for ease of carry & w/o a brake it looks in the pic.
However---I never let a rockie to these type large bore guns shoot my 600's until I'm sure they can handle it after I've showed & tought them how to do it. A 600 Overkilll is like few other rifles that are carried for hunting. You can get by having a little lesson fun on someone with varmaint calibers like 458's & such but an Overkill can do too much damage to both gun & shooter.
I wouldn't want to see my $10k rifle bouncing around on the ground as I've seen with others who let rookies shoot theirs.

It seems a lot of owners of these big bores seem to get pleasure out of others peoples pain.

I have a friend with a 577T he is always trying to get me to shoot it. I said only if I get to load the cartridge I'll be using and carry it out the door to the range.

I willing to try a light to med load but not a full power one.

He seems to like to see people get slammed with full power ones.

I have a bad rotator cuff I sure wouldn't want to make it worse just to say I did it.

With a proper break like the one created for the rifle, it handles like a hot .338. Full house without the break can get your attention.
I can only handle 5 or so full house loads per session and then I have to go down to my 505 Gibbs or .470 nitro for a little relaxation.

I have an excuse now ,a pace maker.
What do you consider the limit for those with a pace maker ?

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I have an excuse now ,a pace maker.
What do you consider the limit for those with a pace maker ?

Is there a cardiologist in the house!

Try 2450fps with a 900 gr bullet!!! That gun will try and torque itself right out of your hands! Iveonly even given out that load to a few friends who I know can handle it. No break on and it's hospital time. Newbies need to be taught how to hanle the recoil of big guns. Once learned, it's no problem.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Try 2450fps with a 900 gr bullet!!! That gun will try and torque itself right out of your hands! Iveonly even given out that load to a few friends who I know can handle it. No break on and it's hospital time. Newbies need to be taught how to hanle the recoil of big guns. Once learned, it's no problem.-Rob

I did the calculation. That would make me think twice about giving it a try.

Mine weighs 10.75lbs. I have allowed a few kids to shoot it with careful instructions. I tell anyone that can shoot a non-ported 3.5" 12ga pump they can handle this load(learning load) 900gr@2150. 155gr H4350

Once in a while I get one of those "tough" guys that don't want to shoot anything with a sissy break on the end. So I remove it. Then I insist they sign a release. After which I load the gun with 165gr H4350(takes a pretty long drop tube to get into case and be able to crimp in the groove) and a 900grRN softie. Not sure how fast it is, but it'll bring tears to their eyes. That load w/no break has come out of 6 peoples hands. I have fired that load with the break and I find it not just VERY unpleasant, but downright nasty!

37gr of TRAILBOSS with a Rob's 750gr "crayon" tip is a lot of fun-break not necessary!

Here, let a 110# girl show you how to shoot a 600 OK

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Here, let a 110# girl show you how to shoot a 600 OK

Did this rifle belong to a gent whose 1st name is Mike? Pretty certain that is the rifle that is in my safe right now. Notice the big bulge at the end of the barrel. That is an AHR brake. I am positive this picture is not in full recoil either.

Phil, is that little Tia? That doesn't count, she's tough as nails! I heard her brother Taj shot it and it made him cry, so he became a pilot instead :-)

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Here, let a 110# girl show you how to shoot a 600 OK

Did this rifle belong to a gent whose 1st name is Mike? Pretty certain that is the rifle that is in my safe right now. Notice the big bulge at the end of the barrel. That is an AHR brake. I am positive this picture is not in full recoil either.

That is your rifle and yes it has the brake and if I remember correctly it was not Mike's 2400 fps load but it was equivellent to the original 600 Nitro and here is a photo of the recovered Woodleigh bullet

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I have an excuse now ,a pace maker.
What do you consider the limit for those with a pace maker ?

Is there a cardiologist in the house!

Is your pacemaker also a defibrillator?
Yes or no, either way, the no-brake, full-house 600 OK might confuse the pacemaker and cause some mischief.
The pre-cordial thump of the 600 OK could be sensed as an out-of-time QRS and trigger pacing that could cause V-fib, or defibrillation of a normal rhythm also leading to V-fib, i.e., sudden cardiac death.
Better stick with the braked 600 OK.
I tried Rob's 600 OK with a brake in Las Vegas earlier this month and it was like a BB gun.
Even a 110-pound girl can easily handle a 600 NE equivalent load in a 600 OK with a brake, whether she has a pacemaker or not.

Drewhenrytnt, yep, that's your rifle. After more than one "out of body" experience with that cannon, I figured I'd had my fun with it! Click on the Phil's "photo", it's a short video clip.

I would guess your 165gr H4350 w/900gr bullet load is rolling along at about 2200fps at the muzzle. Anyway, that's what 165gr of IMR4350 chrono'ed.

The loads we were shooting that day at Phil's were 900grainers at 2150fps. They're workable, especially with that 3/4lb brake and Tia's first comment was "that wasn't as bad as that .470 double!" She didn't dance around as much with the second shot IIRC even though it's pushing 200ft/lbs of recoil energy.

Can't imagine an 8 1/2lb rifle though. Talk about really seeing stars!!!

Look at the mushroom on that Woodleigh! Holy crap!

That 900 grain Woodleigh is a beautiful thing; looks like a purty flower.

We built an 8-1/2 pounder for Safarikid several years ago; "Grizzilla" was its name. Upon delivery, the Kid promptly "scoped" himself while sighting it in, but took it on a pig hunt the next day and got a couple of nice Porkers. He sold it, it went to Africa for a couple of Buffalo, and is still out there pounding stuff as far as I know.

8-1/2 pounds is way too light. I had to shoot the thing to regulate the sights and I dreaded it the whole time I was building it. Of all the 600 OK's we've built, that one holds a special place in my mind, and neck, and back...

A 8.5 lb 600ok shooting the 900gr, 2100fps load with a good break is actually the gun I'm
Going to build this summer. Recoil will be stout but manageable. I would not shoot anything faster in it and if 2100 FPS is too much ill just load it down to 1900.
RIP you know how to shoot big bores and have a ton
Of experience no .600ok will ever give you the slightest problem. It was great shooting with you!-Rob

RIP ,even I might be confused by a 600 OK ! Maybe it would be better to get a 110 lb GF.

BTW, I had Lyme disease and believed the heart problem caused by it.Many doctors say Lyme not associated with the heart. However the CDC now lists 4 deaths from 'Lyme/carditis ' .Be careful it's a nasty thing !

I saw a video of a 10 year old kid who shot a SW500 or something similar.His wrist broke down the pistol recoiled driving the front sight into the crown of his head killing him. Putting a rifle with a 100 lbs of recoil in the hands of a inexperienced shooter is a accident waiting to happen. Concussions,detached retinas, broken bones are all possible. Hard kicking handguns have accounted for more than one death. Even if they avoid getting hurt ,they may fear firearms the rest of their lives. Do them and your selves a favor and start on a couple light loads and then a few mid-range load,before putting a full power in their hands. They will finish in one piece , like your big bore instead of fearing it.


JD

Rob and Wayne,
What is the best barrel contour to use for a lightweight 600 OK?
The Pac-Nor #6 Sporter contour has a 3"-long cylinder knoxform of 1.200" diameter,
then tapers (by 35" radius, Pac-Nor standard) to 0.950" diameter at 6" from breech.
Then there is a straight taper of 0.010" diameter decrease for each inch of length to 26" length, where diameter is 0.750"

If you cut that barrel at 20" from breech, the muzzle diameter then is 0.810".

Muzzle wall thickness in the grooves would then be be: (0.810 -0.620)/2 = 0.095"

That is a bit thin, eh?

I reckon that specifying a custom contour with lesser straight taper would be in order.
Just enough to make the muzzle diameter at 20" length 0.870"?
That would give 0.125" wall thickness in the grooves.
0.920" muzzle diameter would be required for 0.150" wall thickness in the grooves.

Or have the taper on a #6 Sporter just stop when it got down to 0.870" at the 14" length from breech, and make it a straight cylinder all the way out after that, long enough to bob at 20 to 21"?
Maybe add an extra inch at the breech too, of full diameter 1.200".
So:
Breech to 4" length: 1.200" diameter cylinder.
From 4" to 7" length it tapers from 1.200" to 0.950" diameter.
From 7" to 15" length it tapers to 0.870" diameter, like a sporter.
From 15" to 26" length it is a straight 0.870" diameter cylinder.
You have plenty of room to cut the barrel on breech and muzzle end while chambering and installing.
Short and light as you dare.

I assume the 1.200" breech diameter is OK for a 600 OK.

Need to keep it as light and handy as possible.

Recoil of 8.5-pound rifle with classic 600 NE ballistics:
900-grain bullet
160-grain powder charge
1950 fps MV
Recoil energy = 234.6 ft-lbs.
Recoil velocity = 42.1 fps

A good muzzle brake can cut that recoil by how much, half?

Muzzle brake - would you believe no more than 25 % ? Same effect if you reduce powder a bit !!

I have had a couple of 600s here over the last few years doing some test work with some of the bullets....... The most extensive was when Doc sent his down to work with some of the new 900 gr #13 Solids and matching HPs at 825 grs. As I recall his was a 24 inch gun, no brake.

All of this work had to be done from the bench. Terminals, load data and such. I tested the HPs from 1400 fps to 2200 fps with incredible results, total devastation, and the deepest penetration of any trauma inflicted bullet ever tested here.
The 900 gr Solids I ran to 2160 fps, and there was no need for any more for terminal performance, driving deep and straight.

A very impressive caliber/cartridge when combined with a proper bullet.

The last day of test work I did with the gun I fired 30 rounds, and this was one of the days with 2150-2200 fps loads. I can tell you, I shoot 1000s of rounds of big bore here every year, but this particular day, I was pleased to see the last 600 OK fired and tested. Honestly, even these loads were very manageable, even from the bench, but after 30 of them, it was beginning to wear me down a bit........

Michael

quote:

but after 30 of them, it was beginning to wear me down a bit........

You're getting old before our very eyes!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rob and Wayne,
What is the best barrel contour to use for a lightweight 600 OK?
The Pac-Nor #6 Sporter contour has a 3"-long cylinder knoxform of 1.200" diameter,
then tapers (by 35" radius, Pac-Nor standard) to 0.950" diameter at 6" from breech.
Then there is a straight taper of 0.010" diameter decrease for each inch of length to 26" length, where diameter is 0.750"

If you cut that barrel at 20" from breech, the muzzle diameter then is 0.810".

Muzzle wall thickness in the grooves would then be be: (0.810 -0.620)/2 = 0.095"

That is a bit thin, eh?

I reckon that specifying a custom contour with lesser straight taper would be in order.
Just enough to make the muzzle diameter at 20" length 0.870"?
That would give 0.125" wall thickness in the grooves.
0.920" muzzle diameter would be required for 0.150" wall thickness in the grooves.

Or have the taper on a #6 Sporter just stop when it got down to 0.870" at the 14" length from breech, and make it a straight cylinder all the way out after that, long enough to bob at 20 to 21"?
Maybe add an extra inch at the breech too, of full diameter 1.200".
So:
Breech to 4" length: 1.200" diameter cylinder.
From 4" to 7" length it tapers from 1.200" to 0.950" diameter.
From 7" to 15" length it tapers to 0.870" diameter, like a sporter.
From 15" to 26" length it is a straight 0.870" diameter cylinder.
You have plenty of room to cut the barrel on breech and muzzle end while chambering and installing.
Short and light as you dare.

I assume the 1.200" breech diameter is OK for a 600 OK.

Need to keep it as light and handy as possible.

Recoil of 8.5-pound rifle with classic 600 NE ballistics:
900-grain bullet
160-grain powder charge
1950 fps MV
Recoil energy = 234.6 ft-lbs.
Recoil velocity = 42.1 fps

A good muzzle brake can cut that recoil by how much, half?

Why not build it like mine at just over 10lbs in full battle rattle. W/O scope it's down right LIGHT & no brake makes it damn light.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rob and Wayne,
What is the best barrel contour to use for a lightweight 600 OK?
The Pac-Nor #6 Sporter contour has a 3"-long cylinder knoxform of 1.200" diameter,
then tapers (by 35" radius, Pac-Nor standard) to 0.950" diameter at 6" from breech.
Then there is a straight taper of 0.010" diameter decrease for each inch of length to 26" length, where diameter is 0.750"

I had mine built with a Heavy Palma contour. It tapers from 1.230" to 0.925" just after the chamber and then stays at 0.925" for the full length of the barrel. Of course I'm at 8 3/4 lbs. Not sure how much lighter you could get it.

quote:

Originally posted by 56hawk:
I had mine built with a Heavy Palma contour. It tapers from 1.230" to 0.925" just after the chamber and then stays at 0.925" for the full length of the barrel. Of course I'm at 8 3/4 lbs. Not sure how much lighter you could get it.

56hawk,

Thanks for that bit of information.
An 8.75-pounder with 21" barrel using the Pac-Nor standard contour "Heavy Palma."
1.230" diameter breech is acceptable for weight, and strength.

Standard Heavy Palma from Pac-Nor:
1.230" diameter cylindrical knoxform at the breech is 5" long.
Then it straight tapers to 0.925" diameter at 7.5" length from breech end.
Then no more taper, 0.925" cylindrical diameter all the way from 7.5" out to 31" length.
Anywhere you cut the muzzle, the wall thickness in grooves will be: (0.9250 - 0.6200)/2 = 0.1525"

Perfect!

Plenty of room to cut on breech and muzzle ends of that barrel.

Option: How long to leave the full diameter cylindrical knoxform at the breech?
Length of this section could be cut to 3" minimum, or left 5" maximum, IMHO.

How long is the cylindrical knoxform at breech end of the barrel on the rifle of 56hawk?

And what make of stock is that and how much does the stock weigh, if you get a chance please, 56hawk?

Thanks.

Sounds like Rob would do well to duplicate your rifle and put a most-effective brake on the end of the barrel, for visitors.


Dang, I forgot all about the 12GaFH double rifle while I was there!
Robgunbuilder could become a regular tourist attraction and single-handedly revitalize the Las Vegas economy.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Option: How long to leave the full diameter cylindrical knoxform at the breech?
Length of this section could be cut to 3" minimum, or left 5" maximum, IMHO.

How long is the cylindrical knoxform at breech end of the barrel on the rifle of 56hawk?

And what make of stock is that and how much does the stock weigh, if you get a chance please, 56hawk?

The barrel is 1.230" for 3" before it starts to taper. I was originally going to leave it at the full 5", but it had to be cut down to fit the stock. Stock was designed to only fit up to a Douglas #5 contour, so it was pretty tight getting a Heavy Palma barrel to fit.

The stock is a McMillan CZ Express stock. It weighs 2 1/2 lbs.

I'll be the first to admit it. I'm a sissy. I'm pretty sure that would make my panties turn colors.

Rip,

Our standard contour for the 600 OK is:
Shank dia. 1.245"
Shank length 2.680"
Straight taper to 1.00" at 7.00" from breech
Muzzle dia. at 26" is .920"

I haven't gone lighter than this. Pac-nor has this contour in their system.

Remember to take into account the threads for your muzzle brake if you're going to have one. You can end up getting the walls too thin in a hurry. I use 7/8-24 threads on our brakes.

quote:

I'll be the first to admit it. I'm a sissy. I'm pretty sure that would make my panties turn colors. Frowner

Rick, you'd be surprised...don't know about an 8 1/2 pounder, but the rifles as they come from Wayne are quite easy to shoot, unless you insist on getting up over 2,200 fps.

Yes it's over 200 ft lbs of recoil without a break. My breaks get pretty close to a 50 % reduction. I never shoot without the break ever! With the break its a pussycat! I want close to .200 at the muzzle for threading on a break. These .600 oks are simply fun and tough on
The game but not the shooter unless you get stupid. I doubt anything on
This planet can take a well placed 900 gr bullet and go very far. Usually it's DRT.

Robgunbuilder, I can't believe 50 % unless you talk about FELT recoil as a good brake has slots cut so that it reduces muzzle rise. From actual physics involved from past studies ,on barrel ,not added can ,25 % was a max. Please explain.

Mete,
The only thing that matters is "felt" recoil. I've always thought my brakes reduce the felt recoil about 40% and I've had the same general response from a lot of my customers.

I have a good anecdotal story about felt recoil. A few years ago, right after the Dallas Safari Club show, a friend of mine, with his 700 AHR, and I with my 600 OK, got together with Kevin Robertson (Doctari) and Monty Kalogeras at Monty's Safari Shooting School for a day of shooting the big bores. Kevin wanted to shoot the 600 OK for a story he was writing for Sports Afield. The rifle had a 20" barrel, but was 11 lbs., so not a lightweight. We all shot some paper and rocks with the brake on. Kevin was impressed. He wanted to shoot it without the brake, so I said go for it. He's a big guy and knows how to shoot a big bore rifle. We pulled the brake and he shot. The look on his face was priceless; he'd never been hammered like that before. So I said "Kevin, how much do you think that brake reduces the recoil"?

"100%, mate".

We all had a good laugh at that.

Thanks Bitterroot, for that "AHR 600 OK" custom barrel contour at Pac-Nor,
and the "Doctari" anecdote on "felt recoil."
100% felt recoil reduction.
Must be like Robgunbuilder's brake.
I am wondering how Rob is going to make 8.5 pounds if he considers 56hawk's muzzle too slim to put a brake on it.

I note that Krieger's 600 NE barrels are .621"-groove/.608"-bore, though I had seen .621"/.604" listed there in the past.
All I got from the Pac-Nor site was 0.620"-groove for the "600" barrel.

The Pac-Nor web site has a nifty barrel weight calculator.
I doodled some approximations for a 600 OK barrel weight, but I stuck in 0.610" as the bore diameter, not sure what is exactly right there.

Based on .610" bore diameter:

Heavy Palma Contour barrel, 1.230" breech diameter, barrel length >>> weight below:

25.50" >>> 3.75 lbs
24.00" >>> 3.58 lbs
23.25" >>> 3.50 lbs
21.00" >>> 3.25 lbs
20.00" >>> 3.14 lbs
19.00" >>> 3.03 lbs
18.75" >>> 3.00 lbs
18.50" >>> 2.98 lbs
18.00" >>> 2.92 lbs

Bolded 1/4 pound weight increments above.
I assume this is with 5" cylinder shank intact and just shortening the straight cylinder portion of the muzzle end,
this makes for reliable interpolation between any of the lengths above.

Since 56hawk shortened his shank cylinder to 3" instead of 5" length, his barrel is lighter than 3.25 lbs by my guess. Maybe just 3.00 lbs, guesstimated.

A CZ 550 Magnum action I weighed as set up for .375 H&H weighed 54.0 ounces: 3 lbs 6 oz, or 3.375 lbs.
(BTW, that is the same weight Stuart Otteson lists for an Oberndorf Magnum Mauser action.)

Barrel: 3.000 lbs
Action: 3.375 lbs
Stock: 2.500 lbs
Subtotal: 8.875 lbs (does not include iron sights/barrel hardware)
Cutting off 2" of 1.230" diameter shank must have lightened more than my guesstimate.
And I do not know the ins and outs of the action work/modifications.

Is there a different magazine box, straight stack, for a CZ 550 Magnum action?
And "sumbuddy who know" Pac-Nor bore diameter for .620-caliber barrel?

http://forums.accuratereloadin...941004821#2941004821

Is this SAFARIKID's 8.5-pound "Grizzilla"?



Same rifle, or another one?



A muzzle brake and scout scope are differences.
Indicating some admission of personal limitations.
A man has got to know his limitations.


Looks like SAFARIKID was changing 600 Overkills like he was changing underwear:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=193101879#193101879

"The Rogue" by Bijou Creek was claimed to be 8#, 8#3oz, and 8.5 lbs here and there,
and tricks used to make weight included:

Fluted 16" barrel.
Hollowed-out buttstock on laminated wood stock, with short forearm, and not too long a LOP?
No recoil pad except a thin plastic buttplate. Meant for slip-on pad?
Integral brake with gill slits cut into barrel band of front sight.
No chance it will be fired without the brake.



Same one test-fired here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGfu3Rge8Xo

On the scales in the video above it does indeed look like 3.7 Kg = 8.14 lbs just under 8 lbs 3 oz, as SAFARIKID claimed.

Robgunbuilder:

Looks like you need to consider integral brake with gill slits cut into barrel banded front sight.
That will allow a thinner muzzle than 0.200" wall thickness.
Stubby forearm.
Fluting of barrel.
How short to go on barrel?
CZ Kevlar stock is about 2.5 lbs, like McMillan, but CZ Kevlar has a full aluminum alloy bedding block.
You might want to get a laminated wood stock and see how light you can make it by slimming the contours, shortening the forearm, and hollowing out the butt.
Can you beat 2.5 lbs for stock weight, after you add in the reinforcing bolts, pillars, and glass bedding?