After solving the issues I had with this first of three Ruger Lotts I had rebuiltI managed a good group.Only after I used black loctite to stop the rear sight insert from moving under recoil did POI stop shifting and it started shooting.
[URL= ]100yd/open sights/off the bench[/URL]
The rifle had not been cleaned either so after a cleaning the group can get even smaller.I changed the front sight bead for a higher to get that group lower.This rifle has a Pac-nor barrel.

Nice group. I have come to believe that you halfway know what you're doing.

Now, drop it three inches and move it two inches left.

A drill and tap to install a grub screw would have saved a lot of trouble.From now on all my rear sights will be fitted such.I would then still use a tiny bit of black loctite to glue that in.Without using glue, torquing high and using red loctite on the lug action screw, getting repeated groups like this from a Lott is impossible.

Good shooting Shootaway !
Great to see you are solving your Lott troubles.
You going to Montana to shoot again this year?

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Good shooting Shootaway !
Great to see you are solving your Lott troubles.
You going to Montana to shoot again this year?

Yes! How about you?

I've paid for a spot, I'll bring the 400 Whelen as I usually do.

I got my second Ruger Lott back from the smith last week.I had sent it in because it had feeding issues.The issue was that my smith copied and used the barrel contour of the first Ruger factory Lott I sent him.It turned out that both factory Lotts did not have the same barrel contours.There was a slight difference among them.The first Ruger he did fed fine.Now both feed fine.In addition to the feeding work I asked him to drill two holes in the rear sight insert(pictured below) to accept grub screws.This was to stop the insert from shifting under recoil.I tried it out yesterday and it worked.I It looks like I don't
have to glue it.As you can see by the first two shot groups just to the right of the bullseye, it shot
well.The second two shot group further to the right was shot from the first Ruger he rebuilt.This one I need to remove the black loctite and move it a little over to the left.
I was using A-Frames in both rifles and was shooting at 100yds,open sights off a rest.Never have my Lotts shot better.

[URL= ]1[/URL]
[URL= ]2[/URL]

I decided to bring the Ruger pictured above to the Shoot in Libby.I am going to shoot my Martini/Satterlee Lott this weekend using A-Frames and the same load I used with both Rugers.I had a small issue with it shooting flyers.I think I got that straightened out.I will post a target afterwards.

At the risk of sounding like Larry Potterfield, "How many Lotts does one man need?"

Below is the three shot group I shot today with the Martini/Satterlee Lott.It is the three shot group just below and to the left of the bullseye.This Lott has a Douglas barrel.It was sighted in with a slightly faster load.Ruger #3 should be ready this summer.It will have a Krieger barrel.It will be interesting to see if the Krieger barrel will be as accurate as the two Pac-nors.
[URL= ]100yds,open sights/off the bench[/URL]

"How many Lotts does one man need?"

As many as one man wants / can afford !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"How many Lotts does one man need?"

As many as one man wants / can afford !

You have a brain that works,AlF!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"How many Lotts does one man need?"

As many as one man wants / can afford !

You have a brain that works,AlF!

And if those .458 Lotts are of current SAAMI/CIP chambering,
they can be improved by simply running the one-and-only-ever SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer into them with a stop at the belt.

You will then have .458 Lotts Like Jack Built,
fully capable of .458 WIN LongCOL performance,
and a little better with the short and light bullets.

A chicken in every pot and a dozen .458 WINs and .458 Lotts-Like-Jack-Built in every home,
six of one and a half-dozen of the other,
in the best of all possible worlds!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"How many Lotts does one man need?"

As many as one man wants / can afford !

You have a brain that works,AlF!

And if those .458 Lotts are of current SAAMI/CIP chambering,
they can be improved by simply running the one-and-only-ever SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer into them with a stop at the belt.

You will then have .458 Lotts Like Jack Built,
fully capable of .458 WIN LongCOL performance,
and a little better with the short and light bullets.

A chicken in every pot and a dozen .458 WINs and .458 Lotts-Like-Jack-Built in every home,
six of one and a half-dozen of the other,
in the best of all possible worlds!

Rip ...

I got the reamer from Dave Manson reamers.I had the diagram of the specs but lost it along with some other emails.Thanks for the chamber size to fit long 458's education.

RIP,are you saying that a 458WM round with the bullet seated far out will not fit in a Lott chamber but will fit in an ordinary 458WM chamber?

It looks like the grub screws failed.I moved the rear sight a little over to the left, tightened down all sight screws and shot the rifle again.All failed.I brought it home and then used black loctite to glue the sight insert, then returned to the range the following day and it went back to shooting in one hole.POI was a little high and I ordered a couple of taller front sights-a bead and a partridge sight.The partridge sight I could file down for precise adjustment.I suspected all would turn out like this from the beginning that is why I tried to order a rear sight in which you had to use a drift to adjust windage.My next Ruger rebuild will have one for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIP,are you saying that a 458WM round with the bullet seated far out will not fit in a Lott chamber but will fit in an ordinary 458WM chamber?

That moment when the light bulb is switched on!!

By George, I think he's got it RIP!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIP,are you saying that a 458WM round with the bullet seated far out will not fit in a Lott chamber but will fit in an ordinary 458WM chamber?

That moment when the light bulb is switched on!!

By George, I think he's got it RIP!!!

Now, I am confused. I thought the chamber on a 458 WM had to be modified to run RIP’s long COL 458 WM loads.

RIP needs to write a book on his long COL improved cases. In 75 years he may be remembered like P.O. Ackley

Not the first time I wore the stupid hat in class.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIP,are you saying that a 458WM round with the bullet seated far out will not fit in a Lott chamber but will fit in an ordinary 458WM chamber?

That moment when the light bulb is switched on!!

By George, I think he's got it RIP!!!

Now, I am confused. I thought the chamber on a 458 WM had to be modified to run RIP’s long COL 458 WM loads.

NO!!


The throat on the standard 458 WM allows the long COL.

The shortened throat on the Lott does not allow for the same COL a standard 458 WM allows.

The Lott, built "the way Jack built" as RIP states, had the original 458 WM throat. But when the Lott was commercially standardized, they used a shortened throat, negating much of the "the way Jack built" benefits.

The cartridge itself and the chamber are two different things.A chamber can be cut however you like.With the Lott you are guaranteed a chamber and throat longer than a short throat 458WM chamber(if that exists).If I read correctly the original Lott cartridge was longer than the present Lott.That was due to the ghost shoulder or longer case neck thought to be needed for added grip on the bullet during recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The cartridge itself and the chamber are two different things.

Yes, the chamber is specified with minimum specs that equal or exceed the cartridge maximum specs. The chamber has a plus-tolerance on those minimum specs.
The cartridge has a minus-tolerance on those maximum specs.
That way you are able to get the cartridge into the chamber.

But, dear shootaway, did you know that the bullet and the cartridge are different things too?
And then there is the rifling!
The barrel contains both the chamber and the rifling of the bore hole in most firearms.
Here we have something funny.
The bullet diameter maximum spec may be bigger than the rifling minimum spec for the groove diameter.
The .458 WIN maximum spec for bullet is 0.459".
The .458 WIN minimum spec for groove is 0.458".
Ditto the .458 Lott, all by SAAMI spec.
Most .458 WIN (and .458 Lott) barrels have grooves of 0.4585" to 0.4590", and they are IN SPEC!
Most jacketed and monometal .458 WIN (and .458 Lott) bullets measure 0.457" to 0.458" in diameter,
and they are IN SPEC TOO!
A happy occurrence would be for a bullet diameter of 0.4585" to meet a barrel with 0.4585" groove diameter. THAT WOULD BE IN SPEC TOO!

A chamber can be cut however you like.

But of course! Sacre bleu!

With the Lott you are guaranteed a chamber and throat longer than a short throat 458WM chamber (if that exists).

Oxymoron! If it has a short throat, it ain't a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Gil Sengel did a ".458 Winchester Special" with a short throat, unsafe with full steam .458 Winchester Magnum loads, he noted.
He wanted it for light-bullet jacketed and cast loads.

If I read correctly the original Lott cartridge was longer than the present Lott.

No. The brass was 2.800" maximum from the beginning. It was the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949 that was 2.850" in brass length.

See Todd's explanation of throating difference of the Jack Lott wildcat versus the SAAMI .458 Lott.

That was due to the ghost shoulder or longer case neck thought to be needed for added grip on the bullet during recoil.

Some BS here. The original .458 Lott had no "ghost shoulder" in the chamber nor does the SAAMI .458 Lott, nor does the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
When properly assembled the cartridges of all three will have the imperceptible "ghost shoulder" on the ammo.

Todd, you got it right.
It seems that shootaway still does not get it.



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The cartridge itself and the chamber are two different things.A chamber can be cut however you like.With the Lott you are guaranteed a chamber and throat longer than a short throat 458WM chamber(if that exists).If I read correctly the original Lott cartridge was longer than the present Lott.That was due to the ghost shoulder or longer case neck thought to be needed for added grip on the bullet during recoil.

NO!!

George, RIP is telling you straight.

The Chamber and Throat on the Lott is shorter than the Chamber and Throat on the 458 WM. The THROAT on the 458 WM is the difference.

The original Lott "that Jack built" was built by lengthening the chamber on a standard 458 WM, therefore his "Lott" had both the longer chamber AND the original and longer 458 WM throat.

But the standardized Lotts built and sold today, all have the standardized and much shorter throats.

The 458 WM with its longer 458 WM throat allows for a longer COL than the standardized 458 Lott, even thought the case on the Lott is longer than the WM.

Not a Lott of Knots!

Good shooting.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIP,are you saying that a 458WM round with the bullet seated far out will not fit in a Lott chamber but will fit in an ordinary 458WM chamber?

That moment when the light bulb is switched on!!

But it burned out promptly, or did shootaway blow a fuse?

By George, I think he's got it RIP!!!

We can only hope for enlightenment of the dark recesses of his mind, someday, by George!
For a light bulb to be changed by a psychiatrist, first the light bulb must want to be changed.

Now, I am confused. I thought the chamber on a 458 WM had to be modified to run RIP’s long COL 458 WM loads.

Standard SAAMI chamber for the .458 Winchester Magnum, only the length of loading is changed to make it a "wildcat".
The .458 WIN LongCOL, being a "wildcat," can also be loaded to a a higher MAP, same as the SAAMI .458 Lott, 62,500 psi.
The SAAMI restriction for the .458 Winchester Magnum is 60,000 psi.
UNCHAIN THAT .458 WIN!

RIP needs to write a book on his long COL improved cases. In 75 years he may be remembered like P.O. Ackley

Thanks, but that is funny! Handloaders have been doing this stuff since P. O. Ackley days,
even those South Africans were getting 2300 fps from 500-grain bullets with Somchem powders, in their BRNO/CZ .458 WIN LongCOL "wildcat" rifles.
Bob Mitchell says Don Heath called it the "poor man's Lott."
I call it the "every man's WIN."
Finn Aagaard wrote about it in the NRA magazines, as a by-the-by, not elaborated on.

LHeym500,

Thanks for the suggestion.
Research for the book is on-going.
It will have 458 pages, maybe 459, signifying maximum jacketed-bullet diameter.
Oh, what the heck, might as well make it 460 to include those cast bullet loads.

American Rifleman 1984

A reprint of same article, previously posted on the never-ending-458-WIN thread:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The cartridge itself and the chamber are two different things.

Yes, the chamber is specified with minimum specs that equal or exceed the cartridge maximum specs. The chamber has a plus-tolerance on those minimum specs.
The cartridge has a minus-tolerance on those maximum specs.
That way you are able to get the cartridge into the chamber.

But, dear shootaway, did you know that the bullet and the cartridge are different things too?
And then there is the rifling!
The barrel contains both the chamber and the rifling of the bore hole in most firearms.
Here we have something funny.
The bullet diameter maximum spec may be bigger than the rifling minimum spec for the groove diameter.
The .458 WIN maximum spec for bullet is 0.459".
The .458 WIN minimum spec for groove is 0.458".
Ditto the .458 Lott, all by SAAMI spec.
Most .458 WIN (and .458 Lott) barrels have grooves of 0.4585" to 0.4590", and they are IN SPEC!
Most jacketed and monometal .458 WIN (and .458 Lott) bullets measure 0.457" to 0.458" in diameter,
and they are IN SPEC TOO!
A happy occurrence would be for a bullet diameter of 0.4585" to meet a barrel with 0.4585" groove diameter. THAT WOULD BE IN SPEC TOO!

A chamber can be cut however you like.

But of course! Sacre bleu!

With the Lott you are guaranteed a chamber and throat longer than a short throat 458WM chamber (if that exists).

Oxymoron! If it has a short throat, it ain't a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Gil Sengel did a ".458 Winchester Special" with a short throat, unsafe with full steam .458 Winchester Magnum loads, he noted.
He wanted it for light-bullet jacketed and cast loads.

If I read correctly the original Lott cartridge was longer than the present Lott.

No. The brass was 2.800" maximum from the beginning. It was the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949 that was 2.850" in brass length.

See Todd's explanation of throating difference of the Jack Lott wildcat versus the SAAMI .458 Lott.

That was due to the ghost shoulder or longer case neck thought to be needed for added grip on the bullet during recoil.

Some BS here. The original .458 Lott had no "ghost shoulder" in the chamber nor does the SAAMI .458 Lott, nor does the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
When properly assembled the cartridges of all three will have the imperceptible "ghost shoulder" on the ammo.

Todd, you got it right.
It seems that shootaway still does not get it.



Rip ...

Now I do not feel so bad. I understand what Mr Williams and RIP are saying. This student accepts his lessons. Sincerely, thank you gentlemen. Makes me look at my Lott a little saddened. However, I still like the cartidge. I have a thing for long Cartidges minus the bullet. I think it is bc I married a beautiful, short woman.

The shortening of the throat does seem like a stoogies move as the 458 WM loaf would have worked in a long throat (normal) Lott, and may have got to 2300 FPS easier. My three manuals do not show 2300 FPS with 500 grain bullet out of the Lott. 2150-2250 are the fastest loads printed.

I will have to chronic factory ammo and report.

The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain.

Seems to me like it would be awfully easy to run a throating reamer in a SAMMI Lott and fix that issue......I might give that some thought....



.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Seems to me like it would be awfully easy to run a throating reamer in a SAMMI Lott and fix that issue......I might give that some thought....



.

Why do you want to seat your bullet out more? What for? You have a Lott!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Seems to me like it would be awfully easy to run a throating reamer in a SAMMI Lott and fix that issue......I might give that some thought....



.

Why do you want to seat your bullet out more? What for? You have a Lott!

Who said he wanted to seat his bullet out more?
Maybe he just wants to "cone-up the breech" like H&H used to do during the transition from BPE to Nitro Express.
Like Westley Richards did on the .425 WR.
He probably wants to be able to get more power out of the .458 Lott with no impairment of accuracy,
by loading to same COL and adding a few grains more powder.
The wide-based, long leade of 0*29'30" is a miracle worker.
It increases effective case capacity, lets off pressure, and is great for accuracy with jacketed and monometal copper or brass bullets.

Rip ...

Cone up the breech?
If he wants more power then he should get something meant to easily handle more power.
If it lets off pressure it is a good idea but will a longer throat let off pressure and if so how much? Would a longer throat harm accuracy?
Sure if he wants to shoot monometals and does not want to compress powder.

If you ''really'' plan on hunting dangerous game w that ruger

may want to get the safety modified

BOSSI a south african ph has a new video out on why

he is not the first one to find out about that

just the most recent

first thing he posted after 2 weeks in the hospital getting his gut sewed back on to his ass

Lott or not

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
If you ''really'' plan on hunting dangerous game w that ruger

may want to get the safety modified

BOSSI a south african ph has a new video out on why

he is not the first one to find out about that

just the most recent

first thing he posted after 2 weeks in the hospital getting his gut sewed back on to his ass

Lott or not

That's strange.

The Ruger three position safety?

Are you sure you don't have your stuff mixed up?

I honesty do not know what this hoopla is all about !

The 458 Win / Lott / Watts or whatever further renditions in this genre was and will always be for use in the Dangerous game category

Now it does not mean people cannot / will not want to use it for different applications ie say a deer gun or whatever !

Fact is it's intent and purposed design was for DG hunting ! It is not a long distance plinker, its not a target shooting gun, its not a contender as a bench rest precision shooter..... It is at its core a short distance elephant and buffalo stopping gun ( and if you wish a excellent stopper in big bear country)

Now in this realm in its early form it earned its reputation ( and there are clearly two schools of thought on this ) Deserved or not !

Its popularity early on note based on its design per se but because there was at the time no viable alternative !

It had the ballistics numbers, an affordable , usable platform (as opposed to earlier expensive double guns) and by then defunct British trade in which was essentially Mauser ( gone because of the war) above all relatively cheap ammunition

The latter cannot be over stated ! if we consider that in Rhodesia / Zimbabwe over a period of about 30 years ( 1960 to 1991 ) some 47,000 odd elephant were culled under Government sanction. This required access to ammo!

With the final demise of Kynoch in the early 70's ( there is evidence of cessation in ammo production before) there was no other viable alternative to the 458 Win !

Now as We sit today pondering this grand caliber we cannot ignore the fact that modern gun trade is not exactly making these anymore, well not in any great number . The call for this excellent DG cartridge is waning and if the trend continues production will eventually cease ...... so yes we can wring our hands and gnash and grind our teeth about its merits the future is dark, and not just for the 458 Win

open the bolt

drag the palm of your hand OR lose fingers across the safety as you pull the bolt

about 1 out of 3 times the safety will engage when the bolt is 1/2 way back

now you are locked out of the magazine cannot go forward or back until you stop and throw [clear]the safety

try it on ''your gun'' YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE WHAT YOU DISCOVER

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
open the bolt

drag the palm of your hand OR lose fingers across the safety as you pull the bolt

about 1 out of 3 times the safety will engage when the bolt is 1/2 way back

now you are locked out of the magazine cannot go forward or back until you stop and throw [clear]the safety

try it on ''your gun'' YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE WHAT YOU DISCOVER

Stradling,
I've used my Rugers more than any other rifle I own-offhand shooting and dry firing.Never did I accidentally flick the safety on or off.

if it's good enough for you --that attitude FOR YOU, well it works for me

still you may want to try in on your lap first

as opposed to in a ham handed situation, a panic moment in a 2 second charge situation

Does anyone know what Stradling is talking about? I don't understand what he is saying.

ruger 77

step one open the bolt
step two draw it back one inch
step three actuate the safety ''full back''
step four try to run the bolt forward or back

you should be locked out of the gun and locked out of the magazine until you advance the safety so clearing the bolt


report back and let me know if your gun also has that lock out feature built in to the safety


next if you like that or rather like it like that

doing that

no worries mate

98's zastava tab safety's


none of them do that

mix your own poison, it's you that will do the drinking most likly -- so


any a how its a dam good thing to know about a ruger [I quite like rugers just not that about em]

first rule know how to run your gun

I checked this out on my Ruger 77 MK2 Magnum.I see what you are saying in that the safety lever can fall between the extractor and the shroud locking the bolt.That said when ones hand is on the bolt handle and the bolt is pulled back, their hand is past the safety lever making it, IMO, impossible to push forward the safety lever.It is much easier to accidentally push back the two position safety lever on a CZ,locking the trigger.Have you ever had the 77 bolt lock on you while you cycled the bolt? If you have you must a weird way of grasping the bolt handle.