Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick"

11 May 2008, 00:22

chuck375

Hi, I just finished reading Terry's book, "Dangerous Game Rifles", and I thought it was pretty well done. Some of his opinion's just seemed arbitrary however. Seems like he has a bone to pick with Peter Capstick, so his only comment on the round is "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick". Since it's the only bolt action DGR cartridge between .458 and 500 caliber that factory ammo is availabe for and is in between the 470 and 500 NE rimmed cartridges in power (energy, caliber, momentum) which he loves, I'm kind of puzzled. If the cartridge has faults, (difficult feeding, extraction, too high pressure, etc.) he should have enlightened us.

Anyway my two cents,

Chuck

11 May 2008, 00:42

namibiahunter

I'm about ready to have a .470 Capstick built on an M1917 action so before I do I'd like to know from .470 Capstick owners if there is anything they don't like about their rifle or the cartridge.

Namibiahunter

11 May 2008, 01:15

buckeyeshooter

I love mine. I use the .475 handgun bullets for reduced loads for medium game and then the Barnes, Woodleighs and A franes for big stuff. You can do anything with it you can do with a .458 Lott as far as I can see.

11 May 2008, 01:31

Grandpasez

It is an absolutely perfect cartridge for a medium
bore. It just should have been named after it's
original inventors. It was the 475 OKH. 70 years ago.
O'Neal, Keith, Hopkins......Ed

11 May 2008, 01:33

GeorgeS

Chuck,

It's the name he has a problem with, not the round.

George

11 May 2008, 01:45

chuck375

Thanks George, seems like he should have still reviewed it or not mentioned it at all.

Regards,
Chuck

11 May 2008, 02:40

GeorgeS

You're right, but at least he didn't knock the round. It's a good one.

George

11 May 2008, 02:42

Macifej

Have you fired that thing lately George??

11 May 2008, 03:24

GeorgeS

Nah. It seems we have bad weather just about every weekend.

Soon, though, the weather will begin cooperating.

George

11 May 2008, 03:44

Macifej

Weather Schmeather....a little rain would add to the outdoorsy ambiance eh? Bet the AR guys up in Alaska shoot in the rain!!

11 May 2008, 04:19

Idaho Sharpshooter

I think if Capstick had used one it would have been a good name. Naming it after someone unconnected to it is sad. Where was Winchester when Keith was touting his version. It is a great cartridge.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

11 May 2008, 04:45

Will

Everybody and their dog are always running around trying to name some "new" cartridge after themselves. Why not name some "new" cartridge after someone else?

Who cares? Not me.

-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
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and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
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11 May 2008, 04:45

boom stick

wsnt the 470 on the h+h case done by john buhmiller first???

11 May 2008, 04:47

boom stick

A bit off topic but soon there will be a .500" version on a belted Rum case...just think of it as a fatter "Capstick" or a smaller 600 OK
it is called the 500 Kill All. Designed to be the largest bullet/belted case for a 375 h+h magnum size actions or with pistol bullets in a win mag action.

11 May 2008, 06:29

eurocentric

Alphin actually hunted with Capstick and both used brand new rifles in .470 Capstick. If memory serves me, they took two buffs with them.

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think if Capstick had used one it would have been a good name. Naming it after someone unconnected to it is sad. Where was Winchester when Keith was touting his version. It is a great cartridge.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

11 May 2008, 06:31

Fjold

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think if Capstick had used one it would have been a good name. Naming it after someone unconnected to it is sad. Where was Winchester when Keith was touting his version. It is a great cartridge.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

The 35 Whelen was named for Townsend Whelen and he had nothing to do with it.

11 May 2008, 08:31

jeffeosso

TECHNICALLY, there is custom loaded ammo avaialble from a factory, but NOT "factory" ammo.. ONLY A2 ever did it, and it's not factory like a 458 winmag... in fact, there's more companies loading 457#2 than 470 capstick.

the .475 bullet is awesome, and I built the 470 AR to be actually slightly larger capacity and fit in a standard lenth action, rather than mag.

both the lott and the capstick are awesome rounds. .. but require a 3.65" oal, which is is spendy to get over 3.35

yes, .300 is CRITICALLY important, aebe..

the 470mbogo, which is probably the best .470 on the planet, fits in the same length action, and easily outruns both the capstick and AR, is "THE" choice for .475...

but, if you have a .338 winmag, you can fit the 470 AR in it, without much work
jeffe

11 May 2008, 08:33

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
A bit off topic but soon there will be a .500" version on a belted Rum case...just think of it as a fatter "Capstick" or a smaller 600 OK
it is called the 500 Kill All. Designed to be the largest bullet/belted case for a 375 h+h magnum size actions or with pistol bullets in a win mag action.

that would be the the .550 express, that is the largest in a winmag, 3.35" length action.. but no pistol bullets

11 May 2008, 10:04

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
A bit off topic but soon there will be a .500" version on a belted Rum case...just think of it as a fatter "Capstick" or a smaller 600 OK
it is called the 500 Kill All. Designed to be the largest bullet/belted case for a 375 h+h magnum size actions or with pistol bullets in a win mag action.

Aaaah yes El Jeffe...

The 550 mag is the heavyweight champ in this category... The 500 Kill All is the largest without major modification... Thanks for the correction. The 550 express rocks!

The 500 Kill All will be fun in the 1/2" range.

that would be the the .550 express, that is the largest in a winmag, 3.35" length action.. but no pistol bullets

11 May 2008, 11:10

Idaho Sharpshooter

Perhaps Boomie, but you shot the 550 Gibbs in Houston; as did nine other people.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

11 May 2008, 11:47

boom stick

Rich...

The King Kong 550 Gibbs is in a different class.

the 500 Kill All is a barrel swap and some feeding on a win mag or 300 Rum. The 550 Gibbs is on a true magnum action.

7 mag, 500 Kill All with flat nose pistol bullet for win mag length actions and spitzer for 300 RUM actions

11 May 2008, 20:24

chuck375

Hi, I guess to me the allure of the 470 Capstick is the ease of converting my 375 H&H, it's a little different and hits as hard as a 458 Lott (and has that lovely ghost shoulder) with manageable recoil. The 470 Mbogo seems to be a lot more powder for a little more velocity. I personally would just go up to a 500 Jeffery if I was going to soak up that much recoil and maybe load the 500 Jeffery "down" to 500 NE velocities.

Regards,
Chuck

11 May 2008, 21:26

Demonical

I bought Weiland's book and I think it's pretty crappy. I hate being negative but the money woulda been better spent on a case of beer.

Gregor Woods book is excellent on the other hand. Likewise John Taylor's books.

11 May 2008, 23:39

jeffeosso

Chuck,
But your arguement turns rought around on you, with only the 505 GIBBS being anymore inefficent in terms of lots more powder and a little more vel... then you get into the pressure vs low pressure discussion...

the 500jeffe is the second most ineffecent hunting rifle 50....

the 500 A2/510wells is FAR better
and the 500 AR gets you the same nominal as the 500 jeffe, with like 40 grains less powder

But, when you say "but it does it at lower pressure" then I point back the the 470 mbogo being the superios .475 bullet chunker... it's LOW pressure at the NOMINAL of the 470 Capstick loads (2400fps with a 500gr bullet) ...

Pressure vs powder. .. its a tough one to call, and based mostly on preference, not facts.

I will beat my drum, which you have set before me, the 470AR and the 500AR are the MOST efficent in these bullet diameters ... why? Shoulders, which you mention, causes a nice venturi .. aka rocket nozzle

jeffe

12 May 2008, 02:10

chuck375

Thanks Jeff, interesting discussion, you made a lot of good points. Lower pressure vs higher recoil and the ability to go faster at similar pressures. Both seem to be very good rounds. I have until December to decide, hunting with my 375 this fall. Should be hell on mule deer and elk ...

Chuck

12 May 2008, 05:20

I Bin Therbefor

From Empire Rifles

"EMPIRE RIFLES ANNOUNCES THE â€œ.470 EMPIREâ€ FOR DANGEROUS GAME

The bolt action world hardly needs another dangerous game cartridge. But sometimes â€œneedâ€ and â€œwantâ€ lead to different conclusions.
In bolt guns like Empireâ€™s Standard Rifle, todayâ€™s most popular choices include the venerable .375 H&H and itâ€™s progeny in .416 and .458 caliber; the .416 and .450 Rigby, the .404 Jeffery, and the big 50s including the .505 Empire.
But there are precious few, and no popular, bolt gun cartridges replicating the ballistics of the most popular of double rifle cartridges, the excellent .470 NE. How can this be?
This question came to mind during a recent visit to the home of my friend and business partner Jim Hall. Jim and I spent time loading cartridges for the .505 Empire, a cartridge conceived to replicate the ballistics of the .500 NE in a design superior to the .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs.
Well, Jim owns a lovely new double rifle from John Rigby & Co. chambered in .470 NE. Jimâ€™s .470 cartridges were handy-by, and it did not take me long to hold the .505 Empire and the .470 NE side by side. . . Jim and I talked it out, and the .470 Empire was conceived.
The .470 Empire replicates the ballistics of the .470 NE in a low pressure cartridge ideal for Empireâ€™s 98S Mauser bolt action. Using the same Weatherby magnum parent as the .505 Empire, the .470 Empire launches a .475 diameter 500 grain bullet at 2,200 fps with very mild chamber pressures; hand loaders will doubtless be able to add something to this. Magazine capacity is 3+1 with a dropped box magazine, or 4+1 with a Rigby floorplate. Excellent bullets are available from Barnes, Woodleigh, Swift, and Trophy Bonded; properly head stamped ammunition will be available through Empire, loaded by Superior.
Large frontal area and low chamber pressure are valued by such experienced hunters as John Taylor, Kevin Robertson and Richard Harland. The .470 NE is carried by many PHs and clients alike, and Empireâ€™s new cartridge introduces a fine performer between the .450s and the .500s."

12 May 2008, 05:50

CCMDoc

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
A bit off topic but soon there will be a .500" version on a belted Rum case...just think of it as a fatter "Capstick" or a smaller 600 OK
it is called the 500 Kill All. Designed to be the largest bullet/belted case for a 375 h+h magnum size actions or with pistol bullets in a win mag action.

Who is building this one?
Already thinking of "next" and want something between my .416 Weatherby Mag and my 600 OverKill.
Have been thinking about Ed's 585BHE (Sorry Ed, I have been meaning to give you a call) and the 585AHR derivative of Rob's 600OK but this sounds interesting too. Is this cartridge and rifle to fire it in reality or still in the "ether" stages?

12 May 2008, 05:50

Idaho Sharpshooter

do you think we should tell them about the 475 A&M (aka 378/475Wby) or the Royale (aka 475 Gibbs Magnum) or are they too young to remember either of those? If they want to, I would let them borrow my
475 Gibbs reamers.

My set of Ackley books lists the 475 A&M Magnum (circa 1962), likely just a few years before anyone at Empire was conceived...

Simply amazing the number of people who think they are doing anything new or different in the big bore cartridge design arena who can't read.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

12 May 2008, 06:11

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
A bit off topic but soon there will be a .500" version on a belted Rum case...just think of it as a fatter "Capstick" or a smaller 600 OK
it is called the 500 Kill All. Designed to be the largest bullet/belted case for a 375 h+h magnum size actions or with pistol bullets in a win mag action.

Reamers have been ordered and Gixxer is making the first one... See the 500 Kill All thread in the wildcat forum. Ed is making the brass till we have enough demand for a run of brass through Quality Cartridge.

Pretty much a barrel swap and feeding from a 300 Rum

Who is building this one?
Already thinking of "next" and want something between my .416 Weatherby Mag and my 600 OverKill.
Have been thinking about Ed's 585BHE (Sorry Ed, I have been meaning to give you a call) and the 585AHR derivative of Rob's 600OK but this sounds interesting too. Is this cartridge and rifle to fire it in reality or still in the "ether" stages?

12 May 2008, 06:27

boom stick

dimensionaly the 500 Kill All is a scaled up Capstick with the ability to use pistol bullets to boot but the advantage is a smaller action or you might as well do the 500 A2.

If you want an even handier package and 500 Nitro power with little smithing a 7 Mag conversion would be cool. You would be limited to flat nose pistol bullets up to 700 grain Ranger Ricks monsters or single loading longer ones. Just think of an 8lb easy to carry "Big Stick"

12 May 2008, 06:28

CCMDoc

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
do you think we should tell them about the 475 A&M (aka 378/475Wby) or the Royale (aka 475 Gibbs Magnum) or are they too young to remember either of those? If they want to, I would let them borrow my
475 Gibbs reamers.

My set of Ackley books lists the 475 A&M Magnum (circa 1962), likely just a few years before anyone at Empire was conceived...

Simply amazing the number of people who think they are doing anything new or different in the big bore cartridge design arena who can't read.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Somethings I read about and know inside and out. Other things, I rely on the insight and knowledge of better men than I to share it - just like your sig line states. When I was a kid, I think I knew about those cartridges, but my mind is so full of other crap, that stuff must have been squeezed right out.
Anyway, who knows what and when I will go with something new, but I like to know what's out there and realize that most "new" ideas are not all that new.

12 May 2008, 07:36

boom stick

The belted Gibbs and Belted Rum are new ideas...
the 577 BME/585 BHE is a Belted Gibbs and the Kill All the belted Rum

12 May 2008, 08:08

Frank Martinez

quote:
Originally posted by Demonical:
I bought Weiland's book and I think it's pretty crappy. I hate being negative but the money woulda been better spent on a case of beer.

Gregor Woods book is excellent on the other hand. Likewise John Taylor's books.

Sell it to me so I can draw a conclusion.
Thanks
Frank

12 May 2008, 20:13

Idaho Sharpshooter

not an issue Doc, I'll be 59 this year; and all I was ever interested in were big bore rifle, motorcycles, and good looking women. Not beating on Empire either, they likely did not have the intent to piggyback.

I have a short wall full of bookcases and reference material on rifles and cartridges and hunting tales. I am rereading Selous' Nine Years book. I was lucky enough to write for several shooting magazines for a decade, and I have been to most of the SHOT Shows. Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

12 May 2008, 20:35

jeffeosso

The 470 Empire aint a 475 A&M.... while you can make the EMPIRE brass by shortening the A&M, it is not intended for stratosphere pressure of the A&M.

Reality .. the A&M wasn't chronographed at X speeds, it was estimated at speeds.

The 470 mbogo is a larger case, WHEN MADE FROM SPEC cases, which i a 3" rigby basic, not a rigby case. The Mbogo can't go as fast as A&M claims, over the same chronograph

The 470 Empire, which has more or less identical capacity of the 470 AR, can easily do 2200 FPS... in a 3.65" case (instead of the 3.35 AR)

My friend george has a great round here. It's not meant to be an unshootable monster, rather a very mild .475.

Remember, some of us think that the answer to the 458 winmag is a lott loaded to 2200, with mild pressure, and not a STILL high pressure and compressed loaded 2300.

George's determination of the sizing and capacity wasn't without referencing previously SUCCESSFUL .475 chunking rounds, nor willynilly on delivering a valid and rational balanced, and shootable round.

Ask boomie, 500gr at 2200 is pleasant to shoot, even in a lightish gun, and can tear a ragged hole.

Do I like the 470 empire? You betcha. Its SANE in pressure, easy on the shoulder, and a friend of mine made it. LOL... is my 470 better? DUH!! but not if you LIKE belted rounds. Some people do, some don't, that's why there are horseraces

jeffe

12 May 2008, 21:54

boom stick

quote:
Ask boomie, 500gr at 2200 is pleasant to shoot, even in a lightish gun, and can tear a ragged hole.

Tru dat

14 May 2008, 10:13

Idaho Sharpshooter

sheesh! ask Boomie if a 730gr at 2200 is easy to shoot in a 10.5lb rifle...in a 40mph wind in the Vegas desert! The Bomminator is a recoil sponge!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

14 May 2008, 11:24

Macifej

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
sheesh! ask Boomie if a 730gr at 2200 is easy to shoot in a 10.5lb rifle...in a 40mph wind in the Vegas desert! The Bomminator is a recoil sponge!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

That's good that y'all be workin' up the big loads! CUZ.....I'll have something Horiffic for you'ns to test sooner than later....

14 May 2008, 11:27

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
sheesh! ask Boomie if a 730gr at 2200 is easy to shoot in a 10.5lb rifle...in a 40mph wind in the Vegas desert! The Bomminator is a recoil sponge!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

That's good that y'all be workin' up the big loads! CUZ.....I'll have something Horiffic for you'ns to test sooner than later....

Bring it on!