I found a source!! Woo-Haw!!
This is all Rodney's fault. Last spring at the original Hoot-n-Shoot a couple of us went up to Hogkiller's ranch to shoot my cannons. Rodney had an H&R in 10 gauge with a cut down barrel. Fun to shoot, and pretty accurate; all things considered. I horse traded Ed Hubel my Savage 210 for his experiments and got a 10 gauge 3 1/2" SxS. I get to thinking over last winter that it would make a pretty neat low-pressure double rifle. Basically, just cut the barrels off at 24" and stick a set of rifled choke tubes in the muzzles. Then make a single V rear sight and a ramp for the front. A fun fart-around gun. I thought I had a couple leads on rifled choke tubes in 10 gauge, but nobody makes them. Recently, I found a shop in WV that cut rifles barrels all the way up to 8-gauge. Called them, and YES! they make 10 gauge, just give them the specs for land and groove and how deep and what twist.

Is anybody interested in buying a piece of barrel, like to make choke tubes with? Rocky Mtn Cartridge will make 10 gauge brass cases to spec.

So, now you all know what is on the plate for this winter.

Rich
4-bore shooter

Just when I thought I was happy with my projects,you have to find this out!

What!!! no 4 bore
What we need is a 1" 3 bore. Making solids would be easy Just hacksaw 1" brass bar at desired lengths
Pac-nor also does a .825" (20mm) as well as a 12 gauge

Wow,you got all the info....BUT...The 2 Bore,which I happen to be contemplating as we type!

http://www.remington.com/produ...trial/ammunition.asp

Remington makes 3 oz. slugs for the 8 gauge

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
Wow,you got all the info....BUT...The 2 Bore,which I happen to be contemplating as we type!

Safarikid... I am disapointed... I tought you would want a ONE BORE!!!

1.669 diameter shooting 1 lb. of lead

Apparently the "B" bore or gauge is exactly 1" diameter as seen in the link below.

So you can do a "B" gauge with 1" diameter pipe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)

Where can I get these? Maybe need to do a H&R Single with a 8 bore barrel for these!

MasterBlaster 8 Gauge Ammunition

BUILD-UPS WITH HARD EXTERIORS AND SOFT INTERIORS
ZINC, 2 OZ. & 3 OZ.
High velocity, maximum energy. Noncontaminant for use in kilns,
tap holes, silos and mines. (All ranges)
#0082-B • 3 OZ. STD • GREEN
#0083-B • 2 OZ. MAG. • GREEN
#0084-B • 3 OZ. MAG. • GREEN

kreiger says they do 4 bore on their website, .950 bore dia. blanks start at like 400 bucks. any idea the cost on the 8 and 10 gauge barrels your talking about?

Smooth or rifled?

quote:

Originally posted by victor1050:
kreiger says they do 4 bore on their website, .950 bore dia. blanks start at like 400 bucks. any idea the cost on the 8 and 10 gauge barrels your talking about?

rifled. it says on their site the minimum contour is a 2" dia blank. bummer because a nef receiver is 1 3/8 wide.

Kid,

ask me how many 8-gauge plastic shells I got sitting here next to the computer in a box.

Rich
bigger is better

Victor,

check with Ed Hubel. He is working out the details on a single shot receiver that will take the 4-bore.

Just hung up the phone with Dave Casey at Rocky Mtn Cartridge. He will be making a run of the 3 1/2" brass in a couple months. He wants the barrel dimensions so he can make the case mouth ID compatible. Hundred dollar bill for a 10-pack of brass. Probably about as many as you want in a shell belt anyway; unless you're built like Boomie or the Kid. Boomie shoots my full house 550 Gibbs like it was a 22lr. The Kid, we seen the pics of him shooting his 4-bore.

Rich

Kid,

see Macifej, he has the brass and bullets already in stock.

Rich

You all are just lagging behind, I've already started on a 2 Bore for a client.
2 Bore Jones Underlever Project

Colin

yeah, but is it a double barrel cartridge rifle? What if you need a fast second shot on a charge?
Uh-Huh, Uh-huh!!! Besides, this is a $400-$500 deal including brass and dies I hope!
I have a feeling your stuff, while awesome in the pictures; is a bit pricier.


Rich

Neat idea.
.775 Rigby was a 10 Gauge double rifle, fully rifled.
I am not aware of any 10Ga "Paradox" type doubles as proposed.

Get a .775" bore reamer and be sure the full length of the smoothbore is cleaned up by that.
Might allow some retention of wall thickness in the choked portion of the muzzle end.
That would facilitate screw-in or screw-on (?) homemade rifled choke attachment,
and facilitate the slide of the slug into the .775" grooved rifling.

I still have more than I can handle with the 12GaFH stuff with 3.25-ounce cast lead slugs.

A 4-ounce "Darwin" natural selector might be a 4-bore simulator for 10-bore loads.

DRG: Kiss my grits.

Interesting info on Frederick Selous and his Four Bore pictured here Selous as in the park in Tanzania
He liked the 4 bore for elephants, the 256 Mannlicher for small game and the 450 Nitro for larger game.
LOL I just read Hemingway liked the 6.5x54 for LION!

From Wikipedia

In part, the 6.5 x 54 mm's reputation stems from its use of a 160-grain (10 g) bullet, giving the projectile very high sectional density and therefore penetrating ability. It requires a fast rate-of-twist rifling (about 1 in 9") to stabilize such a long bullet.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ick_Courteney_Selous

OK hijack off

Graeme Wright's 3rd edition chapter fourteen says the paradox guns were a smashing success in 8, 10, 12, 16, 20, and 28 bore.
"The larger gauge paradox guns (that means 8 and 10) were really big game rifles and not intended to be used as shot guns."

DRG: Kiss my grits.

thanks for the help RIP! I had my local guy cut the barrels off at 24" on my double (from 32") Wall thickness is at least .070+" and ID runs a pretty consistent .768" +/- .002" or so. Plenty thick enough to hone out, per RIP to the nominal ten-gauge bore .775" as Boomie's chart shows. My guy should have no issues thinning the barrels down to make rifled choke tubes about 2.25" long and threaded 2" deep. I want the tubes OD about .915" to match the barrel OD, and knurled slightly. That .25" sticking out the barrel mouth will let me rotate the tubes to (hopefully) regulate both barrels at 3" or a bit smaller at 50yds. If so it will be an unqualified success and come in less than $750, including dies and a box of brass.

Rich

I made one slight tactical error this afternoon. I called Colin Stolzer at his shop and we discussed the two-bore cartridge rifle. I ended up having him stick me on the list for one. It's going to run me a little more than this ten-gauge project, I have a feeling.

Rich
bigger is better

You can handle it Rich!! You just gotta narrow your big gun focus a bit!

Rich what is WV guys number.You say goes to 8ga? Great.

What kind of 10ga slugs are you going to use.
Are you going to cast? I'm interested if I got it figured
out what you are getting. You getting a rifled 10ga barrel
and are going to use 2 short sections of it for rifled chokes
for your 10 gauge? If you have some left over I want to get
one to put on a 31" barrel NEF 10ga here to try.
It is the SB2-103 goose gun with screw in choke and maybe
make Paradox slug gun with rifled choke to go in the same
thread. NEF also makes a 24" short barrel version that
we could do this with. Both types have the heavy bull barrel
all the way to the muzzle, and they don't cost a lot.

The 4bore barrels Kreiger makes are for guns
called 4bore but are small 4ga and that were originally
.935-938" smooth waterfowling bird guns for shot.
Then they added rifling for diameter of 950". The
4bore we are doing and Ken Owen and others did are
1.00" and match the 4bore slugs that Naval Ordnance
makes and the Corbin swaging dies he and others use.
And high strength tubing I used for economical
smooth barrel on the first one I'm doing.
There are more of the larger bore versions around
for slugs here, AUS, UK.

Stolzer's site had some interesting info---------

""I explained to him the limited types of cartridge weapons I could work on or build according to the BATFE. Specifically the law says in the exemptions listed in 27 CFR " Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica

(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade."

(The #2 is interestng part)


After a bit of research to verify if I could find a commercial source for loaded 2 Bore ammunition, which I couldn't and then sending a letter to the BATFE tech branch to verify my understanding of the law and get it in writing that this would be a legal build for me to do.................""""

HMMM.
Would this apply to my 4bore down the road.. Cases for
our 4bore are definately not laying around on gun store
shelves or in Midway/Grafs/Caboolas/etc catalogs. Ed

Ed, have you or was it Rob made up any barrel blocks for the H&R or the NEF single shots. Be kind of cool to have a swith barrel 8 & 10 gauge gun. Would this work or does the rcvr need to be modified for larger diameter barrel?
Rodney.

I think Colin may have orders for half a dozen or more by time spring gets here and he starts posting pictures of the rifle in progress.

I will get you the phone number as soon as I am certain the barrel is a done deal. If this guy will for sure make them perhaps we could get a longer barrel and cut my two pieces off? I only need eight inches for my choke tubes.

Four-bore cases can be had from Ken Owens in Nashville, KY (loc?) he makes a run every year for his four-bore double owners. About $45 a round for loaded ammunition IIRC. Can't tell you about brass or bullets.

Rich

Rich- I'd want a rifled piece 8 inches
long if priced not too high.
I just figure to get a 24" NEF 10ga
heavy barrel version with screw in choke
and add 8 inch rifled piece to it.That way
I'll still have the 10ga goose gun
smoothbore we all really like here.

Ken isn't making anymore guns and he told me that
his guys for now have enough cases. If I wanted
some more of the same cases to go with the 2 I have,
as opposed to making them from 20mm brass, I can have RMC
do them with a minimun Ken told me of whatever number
you can get from a long brass bar that he'd have to
order. Probably 25-30 cases.

Nef monoblocks- Rob was going to make from scratch.
I made some by cutting off 10ga barrels and threading
and have one in my 585HE, one in my 700HE, and
I reamed/chambered a whole 31" heavy 10ga barrel
to 8GA FH that uses reworked 8ga industrial cases.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:

(2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(The #2 is interestng part)


After a bit of research to verify if I could find a commercial source for loaded 2 Bore ammunition, which I couldn't and then sending a letter to the BATFE tech branch to verify my understanding of the law and get it in writing that this would be a legal build for me to do.................""""

HMMM.
Would this apply to my 4bore down the road.. Cases for
our 4bore are definately not laying around on gun store
shelves or in Midway/Grafs/Caboolas/etc catalogs. Ed

I think I should urge a word of caution here. That part in bold can bite you in the backside. If BATFE can find a box of shells from an online antique dealer and drop one in your chamber and pull the trigger, then you have broken the law. Although they are rare, I still occassionally see 4 Bore Eley ammo for sale to the collectors. The reason I know I am safe with the 2 Bore is because all the originals I was able to find are 4" cases for puntguns, the cases S&H makes are 3.5", so it would be impossible to chamber an original.

Just thought it might be worth mentioning, I don't want anybody to get into trouble because they relied on a statement of mine. I'm not a lawyer and don't even want to pretend to be one.

Colin

I have a double 10 sawed off at 20 inches that I have thought of adding choke tubes on. The question has always been=== Federal makes the only slug at 1 7/8 oz but they are fosters and not useful on anything larger than deer, black bear or hogs. Secondly, how would you regulate the barrels without an armload of gunsmith costs?

Guys,

let's try and keep the posts here on just this topic. Otherwise it gets too unwieldy. Anyone with an ancillary question PM me, unless you think it has interest for the program at hand.

My initial thought was to find somebody making 10-gauge standard bore barrels. That is .775". I located a gentleman who makes them, and eight-gauge as well. The plan is to buy a barrel, and have a gunsmith/machinist cut it into choke tube sized lengths and do the work to make it into a rifled choke tube. I just spoke to the gentleman, and he is making the barrel with a .775" bore and .006" deep cut rifling with a 1:48" twist. That will stabilize a bullet up to 1.7" long or so. The barrel is (gasp!) going to be 1 1/4" OD and fifty-four inches long, so there should be plenty of lengths to go around. A shop can make several of them for about the same cost as one, since set-up is the main time/cost. My research on Paradox Rifles indicates that they were primarily an inexpensive alternative to the costly double rifles. We are talking close up work and MOE. Minute of Elephant!

Single shots, like the Illustrious Ed Hubel wants are simple. Doubles are a bit more complicated. The nice thing about rifled choke tubes in a double is that you can regulate them by turning the tubes in or out until you get acceptable groups. First find a load for one barrel, then check it in the other. If it's decent, then you start screwing the tubes in a wee bit at a time until they merge. I am going to epoxy mine in, and not worry about shooting shot. What ever it does is good by me. The idea is to get a good mould that will cast about a .776-.777" slug weighing about 1000grains. The factories offer 2 &1/4OZ shot loads over 1300fps, roughly 1000gr.

Brass will be by Rocky Mtn Cartridge. I'm talking with CH4D about dies. A big press is a necessity, the opening will need to be at least four inches. I'm talking to Macifej about his conversion on the Hornady 50 BMG.
That is where we sit for today. As I gather information I will share it here.
PMs will be answered the same day if possible.

Thanks for the encouragement.


Rich
bigger is better...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


My research on Paradox Rifles indicates that they were primarily an inexpensive alternative to the costly double rifles.

Not so. No price difference in an original 10 bore paradox and a 10 bore rifle. The paradox advantage was less recoil therefore less gun weight.
A 6 dram 10 bore paradox would weigh in at 12lbs and felt recoil is similar to a 470ne with the paradox shooting 900gr bullet at 1250fps. As to cases, brass is great but you could use 10 gauge plastic.
Original paradox rifling was quite heavy

Gatsby,

thanks for sharing that knowledge with us. I don't suppose you have a bullet mould for a ten-bore do you? I'd love to get a couple sample bullets to work off of...

Rich

I have 2 molds and can size to .777.

Oooooooooooh Baby!! Look at those big dogs.

check your PMs.

Rich
more gun porn...

quote:

The 4bore barrels Kreiger makes are for guns
called 4bore but are small 4ga and that were originally
.935-938" smooth waterfowling bird guns for shot.
Then they added rifling for diameter of 950". The
4bore we are doing and Ken Owen and others did are
1.00" and match the 4bore slugs that Naval Ordnance
makes and the Corbin swaging dies he and others use.
And high strength tubing I used for economical
smooth barrel on the first one I'm doing.

So what you are making is a smooth bore "B" gauge or bore listed here as a true 1" right?
Turning solids from 1" brass stock will be a cinch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)

first fly in the ointment: I have the barrel ordered, but it will be 4-5 months before it is ready. That's okay I guess, gives me/us time to try and accumulate some funds.

Rich
Paradox DR fan

Wright, Seyfried, and Sherman Bell seem to be getting best results with the Paradox slugs right at groove diameter to as much as .006" below groove diameter.
Something to do with the way the lead slugs "bump up" in the smoothbore section before they hit the rifled chokes?

Some almost-off-the-shelf moulds from NEI:






DRG: Kiss my grits.

thanks RIP, there are some nice designs there. I am going to try and wheedle Gatsby out of twenty or so of his two mould designs to work on.

Rich

www.cannon-mania.com/ammunition.htm

A place to order 12, 10, 8 and 4 gauge brass and blanks

The 8 Bore is quite interesting because it can be a double barreled shotgun as well as a Jumbo or DWG slayer of the highest order

Even with plastic cases in a shotgun what wont keel over when hit with a 1200 grain bullet even at shotgun preasures???

From the Griffin and Howe web site the caliber/bore table
that they present shows a 4 bore to be 1.052 inch diameter.
http://griffinhowe.com/bore_size_chart.cfm

The same is true from Hallowell's site.
http://www.hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm


This is in conflict with what boom stick posted as shown below:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What!!! no 4 bore
What we need is a 1" 3 bore. Making solids would be easy Just hacksaw 1" brass bar at desired lengths
Pac-nor also does a .825" (20mm) as well as a 12 gauge