who is chambering for the 416 Rigby opened up to .50 calibre...?

11 February 2006, 08:40

jeffeosso

Here's the story..

a .510 bullet WILL work in a 416 rigby case.

but it's 3times the price of the 416 weatherby brass, which makes the 500 asquare/510 wells

you CAN do it... it will have more than plenty of shoulder to headspace....

but it aint worth the trouble as the rigby /weatherby cases are belted vs non-belted twins

jeffe

11 February 2006, 10:35

RIP

Who is doing it? Nobody I know of, except one guy who posted here years ago. Kind of evaporated after a few posts.

Sure, it can be done if you want to put up with a shoulder similar to the .411 Hawk, .400 Whelen, or 10.75x68mm Mauser.

More trouble than it is worth, and that would be for a DGR rifle or Tactical Application where you don't want any questions about function. Just not smart. Too fussy with the brass and dies, unless you just like the wildcat aspects of it, if so, whatever floats your boat. I am certainly guilty of worse!

BTW, at MidwayUSA .416 Rigby brass is $195.98/100, which makes it $39.20/20 or $1.96/piece.

The Wby brass is only sold as box of 20 pieces at:
.416 Wby $37.99/20 = $1.90/piece
.460 Wby $39.99/20 = $2.00/piece to the nearest penny.

When you get the rifle ready, just use .500 A-Square data. No difference could possibly be achieved.

11 February 2006, 10:39

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Try to reach RIP, (an arms expert) ...

12 February 2006, 00:23

RIP

Idaho Shootersharp

I think you and Jeffe have goaded me into forsaking the .510 Gibbs for a blown out .416 Rigby necked to .510.

I would make it same as .470 Mbogo just necked up to .510.

What the hell ...

.470 Mbogo now .510 Mbogo ...

I'm on it. I am joining the .411 Hawk shoulder crowd, I will probably have to have one of those too, in a bolt action, not a lever.

12 February 2006, 06:45

Bwana-be

If you do that, there's no stopping me with my 13x61mm Maus!
2.4" case, .076" per inch taper, .012" thick neck, ~102g water under a 535g bullet....
;-P

12 February 2006, 12:03

RIP

Take some .470 Mbogo (Qual Cart) brass, and .416 Rigby brass fire formed in the .470 Mbogo (comes out about 0.1" short), and some BELL .416 Rigby basic brass sized in the .470 Mbogo dies ...

Fiddle with some .510 caliber bullets and .470 Mbogo dies and .505 Gibbs dies ...

Use the open end of an H&H belted seater die to to crimp the case mouth around the cannelure of the .510 bullets ...

And what do you get?

Some beautiful .500 Mbogo Express dummies.

If Dave Estergaard considers this an infringement of copyright, then we will just have to go ahead and make the neck longer and call it some thing else.

After all, we know the .470 Mbogo has a neck too short, and with a .510 bullet it is even more so ...

But in old age I am becoming more forgiving of short necks and small shoulders.

A Straight neck up of the .470 Mbogo to .510 results in a shoulder that is 0.575" diameter,
and a Neck-1 of 0.535" diameter with a 35 degree shoulder.

That beats the .411 Hawk/.400 Whelen way to heck! About 100% better in diameters and shoulder angle, IIRC. Sumbuddy correct me if I am wrong.

You know it will work.

So long .510 Gibbs, hello .510/.416 Rigby improved.

What does this accomplish?

It gets rid of the rebated rim and the belt on a .500 A-Square.

That is a quantity of power sufficient to make my right arm go numb if I don't hold a 10.75 pound rifle just right. That is enough for me, but it can be loaded down to the gentleness of a .500 NE.

Lesser bolt thrust for pressure compared to the Gibbs head size too. More safety margin.

12 February 2006, 12:36

boom stick

rip...post some 510 mbogo pics...brass will be a lot cheaper...$3 at midway

12 February 2006, 20:48

RIP

Here ya go: The 500 Mbogo

1. .416 Rigby Norma brass simply necked up to .475: 0.540" shoulder - 0.505" neck = 0.035" and 45 degree angle

2. 470 Mbogo Quality Cartridge brass, fireformed and reloaded with CH4D dies: 0.571" - 0.500" = 0.071" and 35 degree angle

470 Mbogo Chamber reamer specs: 0.575" - 0.505" = 0.070" (max chamber)

So: using blank headstamp .416 Rigby basic brass that is about 2.940" long, made by BELL: Size to 470 Mbogo, then seat reversed .50 BMG bullet using .505 Gibbs dies and pull the bullet back out, then seat .510 caliber hunting bullet, then use the open mouth of a .375 H&H die to crimp the case mouth slightly at available cannelure.

500 Mbogo shoulder about 0.575"
500 Mbogo Neck-1 about 0.535"
Shoulder diameter minus neck diameter = 0.040"

Close enough on my dummies. I do indeed get a full 0.040" difference on all the 500 Mbogo dummies when I measure.

I am revising my acceptable shoulder opinion to 20 thou per side and 20 degree angle: 20/20 Rule.

If we play by .411 Hawk Rules, then even the .416 Rigby necked up to .475 bullets with no other changes is more than acceptable, and the 500 Mbogo is better than that.

The 500 Mbogo does have a short neck, about 0.4" when made full length with brass 2.920".

If you just fire form the .416 Rigby to 470 Mbogo then neck up to 500 Mbogo, you get a neck that is about 0.3" and brass length that is 2.840".

The 500 Jeffery is glorious with a .3" neck, what?

So a custom reamer might be made with a caliber length neck and whatever throat you want.

Dave Kiff or Dave Manson.

Use 500 A-Square load data.

12 February 2006, 23:26

RIP

Hell, I wouldn't change a thing on the 500 Mbogo.

Here at HA!/DOA we have just added the 500 Mbogo to the proprietary line. Of course we do not have the heart to axe the .510 Tatanka for the rare bird afficianado.

The HA!/DOA Line:

Long Nose Cartridges:

307 Lapua Chui
337 Lapua Simba
377 Lapua Nyati
427 Lapua Kifaru
457 Lapua Tembo

Short Nose Cartridges:

450 Lakota Boomstick
470 Mbogo
500 Mbogo
510 Tatanka

An interesting mix of Finnish, Lakota, and Swahili.

13 February 2006, 00:13

RIP

News Flash:

HA!/DOA announces that the 450 Lakota Boomstick henceforth will be a short .404 Jeffery necked up to .458. It is simply a .404 Dakota necked up to .458.

The Lapua based Boomstick was simply too much of an overlap with the 457 Tembo, being the same cartridge with neck trimmed short (Too short?).

The new 450 LB fits in a Ruger MKII easily and also passes the 20/20 rule of shoulder sufficiency: Use 450 Vincent Short load data.

We have had a paradigm shift here at HA!/DOA regarding shoulders.

Thanks to the years of experience here at AR.

13 February 2006, 01:59

El Deguello

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Who is doing it? Nobody I know of, except one guy who posted here years ago. Kind of evaporated after a few posts.

Sure, it can be done if you want to put up with a shoulder similar to the .411 Hawk, .400 Whelen, or 10.75x68mm Mauser.

More trouble than it is worth, and that would be for a DGR rifle or Tactical Application where you don't want any questions about function. Just not smart. Too fussy with the brass and dies, unless you just like the wildcat aspects of it, if so, whatever floats your boat. I am certainly guilty of worse!

BTW, at MidwayUSA .416 Rigby brass is $195.98/100, which makes it $39.20/20 or $1.96/piece.

The Wby brass is only sold as box of 20 pieces at:
.416 Wby $37.99/20 = $1.90/piece
.460 Wby $39.99/20 = $2.00/piece to the nearest penny.

When you get the rifle ready, just use .500 A-Square data. No difference could possibly be achieved.

From GRAF'S

JAMISON BRASS 416 RIGBY UNPRIMED
Item Number: JU416R Â· Availability: In stock

Quantity: 20 $28.99
100 $137.70 ; 200 $260.91

13 February 2006, 03:55

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
News Flash:

HA!/DOA announces that the 450 Lakota Boomstick henceforth will be a short .404 Jeffery necked up to .458. It is simply a .404 Dakota necked up to .458.

The Lapua based Boomstick was simply too much of an overlap with the 457 Tembo, being the same cartridge with neck trimmed short (Too short?).

The new 450 LB fits in a Ruger MKII easily and also passes the 20/20 rule of shoulder sufficiency: Use 450 Vincent Short load data.

We have had a paradigm shift here at HA!/DOA regarding shoulders.

Thanks to the years of experience here at AR.

dont forget my short neck 404 no changes just trim to 2.55"

the same with the 416. did not want to reveal it yet but rip let er' rip

dont forget the short neck jeffery will work in the blr. it splits the diff. between the taylor and a.r. carts. easy as pie to make.

the 404 short neck, the 458 short neck (460 g+a short neck) also the 416-404 short neck. the best part is with the 404 short neck is no headstamp wildcat issues and will work out of a 7mag, 338 w.m. 458 w.m. action! a 404 jeffe in a smaller action! i think 2300fps with a 400 gr. bullet would be max though.

i nicknamed them j.b.s. carts (jeffery,boom-stick) or they could be j.b. 416,404 and 458 j.b.s. or throw lakota in there somewhere l.b.s.?

that neck is too long and needed a haircut

13 February 2006, 04:03

boom stick

damn! that 510 mbogo looks like a hammer!!!

maybe it should be called a 500 war-club!

13 February 2006, 04:04

boom stick

rip...since you outed my carts you need to post pics of the dummy rounds now

13 February 2006, 04:17

RIP

Boomer,
My camera just broke. Take a look at Saeed's 450 Vincent Short to see what the 450 Lakota Boomstick looks like.

We've been talking about this stuff for years. Nothing new.

I think it is time you started getting your own brass and photograph some dummies for us.

Who knows, some actual rifles might spring from that.

I cannot think of anything more profane than a .404 Jeffery simply having its neck shortened to 0.3". Absolutely obscene!

BTW, new .404 Jeffery brass and certainly .404 Dakota brass is not rebated. Same head and rim diameter.

13 February 2006, 04:26

RIP

El Deguello,
Thanks for reminding us of the great brass at Jamison. I am sure Jamison International could supply some .416 Rigby basic brass of 2.940" length with blank headstamp for custom stamping. Great prices for best quality brass.

13 February 2006, 04:32

boom stick

yeah i knew the rebate thing but it is the best schematic i can find...

yes the 404's most recognizable feature being cut back is an abomination to the 404 jeffe but a .32 ish neck is not outrageous. the beauty is no headstamp issues, works in a w.m. action no rebate ect.

the 450 is better in the neck issue.

all high volume cases easy to make (cant be simpler for a wildcat er um proprietary i mean) and great components. with the 450 what you spend in brass ($1.62 at midway)

you can make up with 15 cent bullets

and still you get that legendary slick feeding

13 February 2006, 04:34

boom stick

rip...do you like the 500 war club name?

13 February 2006, 05:30

gixxer

Hey RIP, you slapped those dummies together in like ONE DAY?! Wholly poop. Kinda reminds me of the "A Team" at the end where Hannibal Smith goes " I love it when a plan comes together!".

I guess the question now, is how heavy do you need to make the rifle, and either way how much will it kick the snout outa ya?!

13 February 2006, 06:32

boom stick

for the max output, ease of conversion and cheap brass and a top notch gunsmith jeffeosso and the a.r. carts have my 404 idea beat...mine is just an idea while jeffeosso's is real

13 February 2006, 08:59

470 Mbogo

Holy Cow RIP you bounce from pilar to post on "your" ideas don't you. I mentioned the 500 on the 470 Mbogo case and it was tabooed by you because of the lack of shoulder for headspacing and now you've made it work. Intersting!
Take care,
Dave

13 February 2006, 09:43

boom stick

dave...he just needed converting...

how fast can you get a 500 mbogo up?

13 February 2006, 11:24

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Holy Cow RIP you bounce from pilar to post on "your" ideas don't you. I mentioned the 500 on the 470 Mbogo case and it was tabooed by you because of the lack of shoulder for headspacing and now you've made it work. Intersting!
Take care,
Dave

Yes, Dave, and I poo-pooed the 50 Lapua that someone was doing years ago before I started chambering the .45 Lapua, now the .457 Lapua Tembo.

Isn't AR a wonderful place, in that an old dog like me can learn some new tricks?

I repent! I have sinned against the small shoulder and the short neck. I accept their worthiness now. Rejoice!

I am also forsaking the standard action .458, that is Jeffeosso's domain with the AR Line: .416, .458, .475.

I am hereby adopting the poor little redheaded stepchild of Dakota Arms, the neglected .404 Dakota.

This cartridge will be called the ".404 Dakota Boomstick." Cute , huh?

Riding shotgun like a puppydog on the seat of the HA!DOA Magnum Action Wagon: .404 Dakota in a Ruger M77MkII Standard length action, a real Boomstick.

The latest HA!/DOA Lineup/Perpwalk:

.404 Dakota "Boomstick"
.307 Lapua Chui
.337 Lapua Simba
.377 Lapua Nyati
.427 Lapua Kifaru
.457 Lapua Tembo
.470 Mbogo Estergaard
.500 Mbogo Estergaard
.510 Tatanka (for the sacred beast of the Lakota)

13 February 2006, 11:36

boom stick

estergaard?

check your p.m.'s

13 February 2006, 12:09

RIP

boom stick,
Estergaard as in Dave Estergaard who invented the .470 Mbogo. Surely you have been here:

http://www.470mbogo.com

We anxiously await photos of the wildcat dummies you are working on. Don't expect me to do it for you man! Get the tools and brass and bullets and go to it!

Meanwhile I must carry on with chores here and get all of the HA!/DOA line shooting before I get too senile ...

Get with it and shoot with something besides that .45/70 Guide Gun.

I think you need a .404 Dakota on a Ruger M77MKII or maybe a .416 AR "Boomstick," to break you in gradually.

13 February 2006, 12:12

boom stick

13 February 2006, 15:20

Bent Fossdal

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
News Flash:

HA!/DOA announces that the 450 Lakota Boomstick henceforth will be a short .404 Jeffery necked up to .458. It is simply a .404 Dakota necked up to .458.

Howdy, RIP!
Is that not awfully close to the old .450 Howell from the 1970's?

I like the idea about the .500 Mbogo!
There are no problems with the shoulder of the 10,75x68!

13 February 2006, 21:44

boom stick

wow....great minds think alike

the 404 short neck is still a new (ha!) idea though...i am delighted to think i reinvented a good wildcat

13 February 2006, 21:45

boom stick

so who is going to make the 500 mbogo? dave or rip

14 February 2006, 08:12

boom stick

i just got off the phone with ken howell...man what a nice guy...he is the inventer of the 375, 416 and 450 howell. i asked him about if he ever did the straight 404 short neck just trim and stuff and he said no so i guess it is an original but the others have obviously been done. great minds think alike

14 February 2006, 11:52

RIP

Fresh batteries fixed the camera:

Dr. Ken Howell invented the Dakota Line of cartridges, what?

Anyway, here at HA!/DOA we are adopting both of the redheaded stepchild cartridges of Dakota Arms:

The .404 Dakota Shortie is for standard length Ruger M77's.

The .416 Dakota works just fine in a Winchester M70 with RUM box, or a CZ 550 Magnum with .404 Jeffery boltface.

All the rest will go in CZ 550 Magnum or Dakota 76 African actions ... except the .505 Gibbs which will be limited to a Granite Mountain Action with at least 0.750" bolt diameter.

As a service to the public the HA!/DOA factory will rehabilitate any existing CZ 550 Safari Classic .505 Gibbs rifles, to include:

1. Clean-up of existing chamber with proper reamer

2. Installation of properly sized and reinforced magazine box, and feed job.

3. Proper crossbolts , pillars and glass bedding.

4. Three position safety and Winchester M70 type trigger.

etc.

The .510 Tatanka is dead, cruel world.

Long live the .500 Mbogo, one of the Titanic Ten from HA!/DOA.