I really, really HATE high(er) pressure big bores rifles! Tonight I loaded some Hornady .458 Lott Brass for the forth time, and on four of them, the primers wouldn't seat with enough tension to even hold them in the pocket.

I noticed some of them were getting a little loose last time I loaded them, but I never thought they would go to hell in just one more loading.

In case you think I'm shooting "hot" loads, I'm not. My 500-grain load is 83 grains of IMR 4320 for 2210-2225 fps -- well below the 2300 fps threshold (however, I did shoot a few shots up to 85 grains during workup, but I didn't segregate that brass).

Anybody know of a lower-pressure producing powder for the Lott to give me something a little over 2200? Until I get my .416 Rigby made into a .450 Dakota or .450 Rigby, the higher pressure Lott IS my one and only true big bore.

Use powder that gets to peak pressure
slower, and has more energy per grain.
Like W-760 ball, you can put in
more of it and have later and less peak pressure, and get more velocity.Ed

win primers? they've had a number of batches run small.

No, Not Winschester.
They're Federal 215s, which is what I use in big bores.

Winchester 760, Huh. You're the second person who recommended this powder for use in the Lott.

I always thought that ball powder was a no-no for use in rifles that go to hot places like Africa. Isn't compressed ball powder the reason the Win Mag got a bad reputation for "squib" loads?

Gahunter--For hot climates full loads not compressed. But depending how deep you seat
bullets full loads will be over 90 gr.Ed

I load all my hunting loads to the upper center of the canalure and crimp. I find that I get the most reliable function this way as DGRs are designed and built with this in mind.

BTW, I recently bought 125 Speer African Grand Slam solids, which are considerably shorter than any other 500-grain solids. This is intended to be a lifetime supply, however, so I don't want to burn them up on the range. I have 16 left for load development. The rest are reserved for "real" work.

So I need to develop a load quickly!

quote:

My 500-grain load is 83 grains of IMR 4320 for 2210-2225 fps

The Hornady manual lists 73.6gr of IMR 4320 at 2100fps as max for the 458 Lott. I know usually load books are conservative, but you are almost 10gr over max! I've heard that pockets don't open up like that till you hit 72000psi.

Another ball powder to look at is W748. Hornady lists 86.8gr at 2250fps as max.

Did you measure your belt expansion? if its greater than .005 vs unfired bass, I suggest you stop! Loose primer pockets are generally the result of three possibilities. In any case this is a warning sign!
1. Soft brass or badly annealed brass- not likely
2. Overpressure- most likely
3. very generous chamber dimensions and soft brass!

Better wear good eye protection and keep some burn cream with you. If a primer blows out depending on your action you may get seriously hurt.
Hope this helps-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by syd-jai:

quote:

My 500-grain load is 83 grains of IMR 4320 for 2210-2225 fps

The Hornady manual lists 73.6gr of IMR 4320 at 2100fps as max for the 458 Lott.

That sounds more like 458 Win data, than Lott.

I think that a chamber cast is needed to see if it is over sized.

Hog Killer

If you do a search in the reloading section, you will see that there are a lot of folks shooting the Lott with 4320 loads heavier than mine. Our old buddy Ray Atkinson touts 84 grains as THE load for hunting Dangerous Game. Steve's Reloading Pages says 85 grains is Max. I thought I was well within the safety zone, since I had no visible pressure signs and no sticky bolt and I was chronoing just a little over 2200 fps. Only when my primer pockets became loose did I realize there was a problem.

And, Syd is right. I went to David's Gun Room in Norcross, GA today and stole a peek at their Hornady book. For some reason, Hornady frowns upon 4320 in the Lott (maybe I'm experiencing the reason why). They seem to like W 748 alot, rating it as the only powder to acheive anything near the magical 2300 fps threshold the Lott is advertised to reach.

I also looked at the Barns book, which listed 81 grains as max with their monosolid (not the banded one). However they claim velocities well above 2350 fps with that load in a 26-inch barrel. I'd have to see it to believe it, as I've never been able to get what Barns gets, velocity-wise.

They're big on 4064 in the Lott.

Since I'm starting over, I'm open to suggestions.

quote:

Originally posted by syd-jai:

quote:

My 500-grain load is 83 grains of IMR 4320 for 2210-2225 fps

The Hornady manual lists 73.6gr of IMR 4320 at 2100fps as max for the 458 Lott. I know usually load books are conservative, but you are almost 10gr over max! I've heard that pockets don't open up like that till you hit 72000psi.

Another ball powder to look at is W748. Hornady lists 86.8gr at 2250fps as max.

458 winmag loads, not Lott

jeffe

I believe you are way over pressure with that load. Ray never shot anything that wasn't overpressure from what I've seen. The first shot on a new case is blowing the belt out( maybe not to max) and in the process absorbing energy. The subsequent firings are driving the case belt to max and expanding your primer pockets as part of the process. A simple micrometer check will confirm this. Most experienced reloaders know to back off quickly ( 1-2 grains) when the belt expands even .0005-.001 inches versus a fired factory round. Then you shoot and reload a case at least 5 times( measuring case belt expansion and primer pocked diameter) to ensure you have a safe load. If the pocket loosens back off the load! Bolt feel, cratering, flatening etc are very un reliable measures of pressure. The reloading manuals are a good starting place, but many have errors in them. Good luck and wear your shooting glasses.-Rob

Hi GAHUNTER,
I agree with Rob on this one. One other thing you might do when measuring your brass is to mark it with a Sharpie marker to make sure you measure across the same part of the belt. How long is your barrel?

Try the W748 powder. That was the best powder I found for my 450 Ackley. The ball powders such as WW760 and WW748 are good for hot climates because they are temperature stable.
Take good care,
Dave

A friend of mine took a 375 to africa (namibia) with max loads that shot just great in the US. His gun locked up on the 3rd shot over there. I'm going to philosiphy a little but I thing the best and highest use of the 458 lott is to load it gently so that you can get a 500 grainer over 2000 fps with very low pressures. The rifle, cases and shooter do a lot better and the animals don't know the difference. just my 2 cents.

H-414 ball is great also.Within 3% of
W-760. To show differences, I relate this
testing with my 458HE.Fired about 2500
rounds in 2 barrel lengths, testing and
developement, 2 dozen powders............
500 grain testing, full loads
of W760 or H414, 500 gr 2750, case lasted
over 15 reloads. I took a case and shot and
loaded till it was ready to fail.Starting loads
of 4350 stick powder case good for 6 loads.
And it was only a 2550 load.

I am looking the Hornaday manual, sixth edition, in front of me at this moment: 458 LOTT, IMR 4320, 73.6 grain is MAX and velocity is shown as 2100fps.

Don't try another round! Its just not worth it!

Interestingly, the same manual shows a max of 73.8 grains of this powder as a MAX load in the 458wm for the same velocity.

Play it safe!

JPK

Not to worry. I broke down all my 4320 loads last night and harvested the components. With Jefeosso's help (Quick Load), I'm working up loads with 760 and 4895.

I'm not greedy. I'll settle on a load that gives me 2200 fps at safe pressure.

Using Jeffeoso's quick load data, I worked up loads with both W 760 and Re 15 under 500 grain Hornadys and headed for the range.

Ran out of space with the 760 at 88 grains and still was only getting 2105 fps. Re 15 worked considerably better, with 78.5 grains giving me about 2210. 79 grains gave me 2230, 2221 and 2241, but I think will stay at 2210. Temp was 75 degrees and low humidity. Didn't even try to shoot for accuracy. I'll do that on the next time out.

Id would bet that your getting a little over 60,000psi which shouldnt make that pocket blow out to 210 or 211. Id say horadays brass is soft in the head. Like 160V...Just my opinion.

GAHUNTER,

I'm looking again at the Hornaday manual, sixth edition. No W 760 listed. However, Reloader 15 is listed and the MAX load given is 76.6 grains for 2150fps.

You really ought to try the W 748 which is the only powder that gives a book velocity of 2250 for a max load. The MAX for this powder is 86.8 grains. H 335 gives 2200 at a MAX load of 79.3 grains.

If you feel you need the 2200fps try a powder that will get you there with less pressure.

I can tell you that a .458" solid at the relatively sedate 2025fps or 2035fps will do what you need. More might be better but you should get it with a minimum of pressure.

Play it safe!

JPK

I would again recomend you try the W748 also. Keep in mind it's temperature stable. The load data you work up will be good in Alaska or Africa. You will get good velocities out of it also as well as good accuracy.
Take good care,
Dave

GAHUNTER I had a friend who loaded to the max plus,primers would fall out, a block of wood was needed to open the bolt and he grenaded several guns.I made the mistake of asking for a 32-20 load when I pulled the trigger smoke came out around the receiver and when I opened the action the primer fell out never asked or took his advice again learned my lesson.I don't go looking for trouble I check several load manuals before loading new rounds with heavier bullets.

els & JPK have this exactly right. The advantage of the .458 Lott over the .458 Win is that the Lott can attain the original ballistic goal of the .458 Win without the Win's problems. Loading 500 grain bullets in the Lott over 2150 fps throws that advantage out the window. It doesn't make sense to trade pressure for velocity that you don't need in a DGR.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Another vote for WW748 - I shoot in my 450 ackley and my buddy shoots in his 458 Lott - very consistent, good velocities (>2300fps) w/ the 500 grain Hornady and accurate.

KMule

Ok,OK! I get it! I'm going to the store today and buy some 748.

However, Quickload, run with my barrel and with 500-grain Hornadys says my pressure is below 55,000 at 78.5 grains.

Just got back in the office from shooting my W748 loads. I worked up from 85 grains (2000 fps, even), to 86.8 grains (Hornady Maximum).

Well, if nothing else, it burns consistantly. the max load gave me 2130, 2131 and 2131. I know, I know, this will kill anything that walks in Africa, but I have set my goal at 2200!

Factory Hornady ammo gives me 2280 in my rifle, so I know 2200 is obtainable, but how? Maybe 4895?

H 4895 MAX load of 74.2 grains shows 2150 in the Hornaday sixth edition.

According to the Hornaday manual, the 85 grain Win 748 load should give 2200 or so in a rifle with a 24" barrel. You seem to be missing all of 200fps. BTW the primer Hornaday used was WLRM. What length barrel are you shooting?

JPK

Be careful...If that brass fails, that rifle will be pieces in the face.

The Ruger barrel is supposed to be 24 inches, however I think in reality that it is closer to 23 inches.

I don't really think I have a "slow" barrel, since factory loads chrono exactly where they should.

I've got a .458 Lott built by rechambering a .458 Win M70. Hornady factory 500gr SP's clock 2298avg in it's "22" barrel (although it measures 23" long - a Winchester trick to help velocity in the Win??)

This rifle likes H4895. 80grains under a variety of 500 grainers is 2200, 82grains throws them at 2275. I'm like you, 500gr@2200 ain't a bad place to be so that's the load I shoot. Varget and RL12 seemed too slow and 3031 seemed too fast.

I've just started playing with an honest 22" Montana Rifleman .450 Ackley and it's pretty much the same velocities with the same powders so far.

Good luck with the H4895, you've got a bad a$$ rig going!

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
The Ruger barrel is supposed to be 24 inches, however I think in reality that it is closer to 23 inches.

I don't really think I have a "slow" barrel, since factory loads chrono exactly where they should.

it's 24... drop a cleaning rod down an empty barrel and measure from the bolt face
j

PWS,

Thought I needed to mention that H 4895 MAX load in the Lott is 74.2 grains for 2150fps according to the Hornaday manual, sixth edition. This is 50fps slower than the Win 748 Max load which the manual claims should do 2250fps in a 24" barrel.

GAHUNTER,

How bout this idea; Shoot all you want here at home with the 2130fps Win 748 Max loads. Do all your practice, fun shooting, whatever. If you really have it in mind to kill a buff or elephant with a 2200fps+ load in Africa, do it with the Hornaday factory ammo. At any range that makes any sense on DG, the difference in bullet drop won't amount to squat, so you will know your rifle and load at any reasonable DG range. Resight before you go and you're set.

I will repeat what I said earlier. You would have plenty of performance way below what you are getting with the Win 748 Max load.

It is commonly believed, and probably very true, that the companies that publish manuals are scared to death of litigation resulting from use of their data. But this is a good thing. Conservative pressure, especially given the history of pressure issues in Africa, just makes good sense.

FWIW,

JPK

Oh, I'm going to give 748 another chance (it was very cool down here today), but I'm also going to try IMR 4895 and maybe BLC(2).

If that does'n work, what do you think about a case full of Bullseye? I'll bet that would add some excitement to an otherwise dull day at the range!

GAHUNTER,

Maybe I can put a little brighter shine on your velocities. Have you adjusted your numbers for the distance you are shooting from the chronograph? My estimate is that you loose about 1fps/' from the chronograph for the 500 grain round noses.

JPK

FWIW,
In a 458 Lott with 500 grain Hdy RN, 24 inch barrel, normal case volume and OAL:

Quickload says 91 grains of Hodgdon H414 (a compressed load) gets the best velocity (2330 fps) at 58000 PSI working pressure.

Win 760 is second best at 81 grains/2308 fps, and is slightly compressed.

But I always remember that compressed loads of ball powder are what gave the 458 WM a bad name, so I like cylindrical powders.

80 grains of RL15 is the best uncompreesed load at 2280 fps.

79 grains of IMR4895 (my personal favorite) gets 2270 fps.

QL says that IMR4320 hits 58,000 PSI at 81 gr /2251 fps.

From this data, I'd say that anything over 2250 fps with IMR4320 is too hot - however many grains of powder that takes.

Real world data is better than QL, but your stretched primer pockets say that QL is on the mark in this case.

With all due respect, a belt expansion of .005 is NOT OK! .0005 is OK! Check your balance for accuracy also. Finally, Quick load is usually pretty dead-on and I'd follow it exactly.-Rob

Just another reason I prefer a .450 Rigby....

GAHunter,

I've got a couple of questions.

What is your aol on your Lott reloads?

Do you weigh each powder charge?

Have you double checked your scales for accuracy?

Hog Killer

BTW, Don, did you mean 91 grains with 760? 81 grains is way below what I read as max.

I've about decided that I have a wierd rifle.

I checked my scales by weighing bullets. I have a box of 130 grain Speer Grand Slams in .270. Every bullet in the box weighs within three tenths of 130 grains on my 505 scales. That's pretty accurate.

Checked my chrono yesterday against Hornady factory loads. Besides being knocked on my ass (lord, those things kick!), they shot 2288, 2298 and 2310 -- right where they are supposed to be. This was after shooting several strings of MAX loads with SEVERAL powders with NONE producing chronoed velocities above 2130.

Maybe God's trying to tell me something (I've just got to figure out what it is he's saying).

It's not a wierd rifle, cases that have a .005 belt expansion with the primers falling out indicate way over pressure period. How much of a jump do you have until your bullet engraves the lands? You should have at least .030! What type of throat does the rifle have? How much freebore? Make a cerrosafe cast of your chamber and compare it to a loaded round. This is the only way to answer the questions I've asked! I use 82 grs of WW748 loads in my lott and have zippo problems. I throated it to have lots of freebore for reduced pressure and while not a varmint rifle spec chamber, It will kill anything that walks this earth and zero issues.-Rob