Hey guys, I was planning to buy one of those past recoil pads for the shoulder AND a Lead Sled. but am gonna have to tighten the recreation budget up a bit more.

between the two, what is going to be more beneficial? I need to sight in and do load development on my magnums (264, 308 norma, 375) and then need to lots of shooting not at the bench. would the PAST help at the bench as well? Just take more advil?

Curious from those of you that have used either or both.

Red

when i am seriously doing big bore load/chrono work .. you know, 20-50 rounds of 80-120ft/lbs of recoil ... i use BOTH... hotsore might come over here and tell us about the MANY THOUSAND of deer he's killed while making fun of the lead sled .. goes to show you that you can't actually beat sense into some people.

I have a past shoulder guard and used it for bench work load testing my 404 Jeffery. I found that about 45 was the limit on full power loads. Have to say that for the amount of testing needed til bench work was finished with was not enough to encourage me to look at the cost involved in the lead sled. I find testing to be a short round count exercise simply because I am only about 2 miles from a range and have uninterupted use, so multiple trips are convenient. I also tested in smaller batches simply because at first it was broad brush strokes to get in the ball park then re testing to refine and this did not take high round count. For me the past worked fine.

Von Gruff.

Past Mag Shield or a sandbag. I found that I couldn't use a Lead Sled for crap. Too tall for me to properly get in position at the benches I shoot at. Sold mine to Frank Martinez and never looked back.

PS: My largest rifle is a .375 H&H - the story might be a bit different if I was shooting something bigger.

If you are looking to avoid or reduce felt recoil from those relatively light recoiling rounds, you are recoil averse.

So, I'm thinking that some felt recoil attenuation from all positions will be welcome. For that I would recomend the PAST shotgun pad. Better for sitting, off hand, etc. You can hunt in it if your prefer...

Also, while at the bench, place a sand bag between the butt and your shoulder. Does wonders!

JPK

If you really want to go the budget route; just fold up a cotton / terry cloth hand towel about 3 layers thick and drape it over our shoulder. It may add a bit more LOP but is as effective as a past pad and if it is hot outside (probably not in March), you can wipe the sweat off your brow.
Primarly good off a bench.

EZ

Gents,
bench shooting huge guns over a chrono and/or sighting them in roughly, it is INTELLIGENT to use a leadseld. There is no sense getting your arse kicked ON THE BENCH for non "hunting" tasks. Inducing a flinch from doing load dev is just DUMB ...

as I always say .. load work and sight in on a leadsled.. then PICK IT UP to shoot it for practice or fun.

laying it on the bench and taking a beating is just, well, not the best possible choice

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
If you really want to go the budget route; just fold up a cotton / terry cloth hand towel about 3 layers thick and drape it over our shoulder. It may add a bit more LOP but is as effective as a past pad and if it is hot outside (probably not in March), you can wipe the sweat off your brow.
Primarly good off a bench.

EZ

this doesn't do anything for a 458 lott, EZ

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
If you really want to go the budget route; just fold up a cotton / terry cloth hand towel about 3 layers thick and drape it over our shoulder. It may add a bit more LOP but is as effective as a past pad and if it is hot outside (probably not in March), you can wipe the sweat off your brow.
Primarly good off a bench.

EZ

this doesn't do anything for a 458 lott, EZ

I did move up to the sand bag for my 8 Lb Browning 458 WM shooting 500 gr @ 2150-2190 FPS; OUCH!

I've been tempted to buy the lead sled, but I haven't really felt the need.

Plus, I can't stand packing up as much damn gear as I do already on trips to and from the range!

I just use my old Hoppe's cast aluminum front rest with a small sandbag on it. I also use a rabbit-eared sandbag rear rest.

I raise the front rest high enough to get my back straight, so that my upper body will move with the recoil. I will put a couple of square cut 2x12s under the rear sandbag to raise it, too.

Also, as others have said, I will generally put a cheater pad of some kind or other between the buttstock and my shoulder.

So far, so good.

If those cartridges beat you up, then I must agree with JPK. My daughter likes the shoulder recoil shield, but tells me it doesn't do much (I have never used one). Lead sleds break stocks, I don't use them either. A friend uses one and swears by it for his 458 WM. Of course I have never seen him use it though, as he typically just brings the 458 over to my place and has me sight it in for him.

I see no issue shooting 458 and 500 for chrono work and sight in off the bench, either.

I have used the Lead Sled a lot on all of guns. I shot the .458 Lott and others without recoil issues or broken stock issues. It is a good tool for sighting in.

The various reports on the lead sled (good and bad) may have something to do with how much weight you add to it.
I suspect the more you load it up, the more strain on the stock.

EZ

quote:

suspect the more you load it up, the more strain on the stock.

BINGO!

Keith

My first big bore was a 375 H&H and a PAST shield is a good idea but I shot 40 rounds from the bench the first day I had it and it was no problem. 12 rounds from a too low bench with my 500 Jeffery and I went shopping for a lead sled as soon as I could lift my arm up ...



Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
..Lead sleds break stocks, I don't use them either.

tell us again about your vast and relevent experience using a leadsled? ever break a stock with one? ever even USED one?

no? and your post is relevent HOW?

dang, scott, i have to say i am amazed by you .. zero experience, even remotely related, but that never stops you from posting .. WOW, you and fuzzydave, what a pair

i am always stunned when a complete tryo, utterly void of experience in the matter, googles a bit and then posts like he's done everything ...

scotts, a man never found to be hidden behind his utter lack of experience...

I have a lead sled DFT and think it works great. It works well for sighting in and load development. Once the gun is shooting good then it is shot offhand or off sticks. I never put more then two bags of sand on it. The weight is probably less then 20lbs. The recoil has never been a problem. I instead like using the lead sled for a steady rest.

Greg

I use a Lead Sled and am quite happy with it. They work great for hard kickers and long distance stuff. If a stock breaks using a Lead Sled consider yourself lucky the piece of shit broke then and not out in the field. It needed replaced.
Scott

I use both and it has really changed my attitude. Now, I don't mind spending several hours at the range shooting several big bores per session since I got the lead sled. No broken stocks, just accurate rifles.

We just ordered a Lead Sled Plus for our shooting range. Especially for hard kickers and to maintain reliable alignment with the chronograph. Haven't tried one yet. Next week when it arrives. Have always used the PAST Mag pad. Its good. Another "Poor Boy" option is to use a regular sand bag rest built up to the proper height, set up your gun, get in position and then place a small thin sand bag between the gun and your shoulder, works great. This will extend your LOP a little, be sure to center the scope reticle in the dark shadow if you don't have a full field of view. Good luck and shoot straight.
tetonka

I have used a lead sled a lot. On my 416 Wby and 577 T-Rex.. No problems whatsoever!!! A different world when doing test work..
Lead Sleds will only break bad stocks

The Lead Sled sounds very good. I got a PAST pad when I got my first 460. I now use it all the time. No shoulder pain from anything. Oops since it's AR I better downgrade that to no pain up to the 460 WBY. No brain protection though.

Anybody wear an evoshield?

http://www.allsportsarmour.com/default.asp

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
Past Mag Shield or a sandbag. I found that I couldn't use a Lead Sled for crap. Too tall for me to properly get in position at the benches I shoot at. Sold mine to Frank Martinez and never looked back.

PS: My largest rifle is a .375 H&H - the story might be a bit different if I was shooting something bigger.

And I use it when starting out the load development before shifting to standing when I use the mag shield.
Before that I used to fold my gunslips a couple of times and use that between the rifle and my shoulder.
Frank

Hi Red,

I comparred the Kick Killer to the Past. The Kick Killer outpreforms the Past hands down and the KK costs about 1/2 of the Past.

I do have a lead sled but I haven't tried it out yet, but I will on my 458wm.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Anybody wear an evoshield?

http://www.allsportsarmour.com/default.asp

That is a seriously interesting piece of kit. It is also the first mention I have seen of it. Do you have one and how does it perform compared to the add hype. If the pad insert hardens to your body shape what happens if you change your shooting stance as circumstances sometimes dictate.

Von Gruff.

Though I am no fan of the lead sled devises - because in my experience they don't produce the same poi that holding the rifle does, and because like Mrlexma, I loathe packing any more gear, they do have their place.

To make a cheap but serviceable replica - at least in function and effect - take an old but intact pair of jeans, tie a knot in each leg, slide a bag of shot down each leg, two for heavy kickers. Lay the legs out forward on your bench positioned so that placing the rifle butt in the crotch area will require stretching out the legs between crotch and shot bags, so they are tight. Use bags to support the forearm, and the butt. Heavy kickers require holding the forearm. Put your shoulder to the butt, as you would shooting off the bench ordinarily.

The taunt fabric of the legs will stretch only a bit before recoil requires the shot bags to move, attenuating real and felt recoil to your shoulder.

Also, because the fabric does stretch, albeit little, I think the weighted jeans are easier on the stock than a machine type lead sled.

JPK

its interesting to read MAKESHIFT advice from those that don't use the device.

its NOT used to do final adjustments or to "practice" .. its used to all you to do load dev and get on paper ...

all advice to the contrary is much like a fool that says to not use hearing protection ... or to not use a recoil pad ...

any rest, as everyone knows, creates a different POI ... doesn't matter if its shooting off the bags .. with a stick ... holding the forearm or NOT holding it .. all create different POI ...

none of which can be held "Against" the leadsled uniquely, now, can it?

Now, the rather large lefty shoouting a 1903a4 off of one, due to recoil, was sad ... but had nothing to do with the sled!


If you don't like getting the snot kicked out of you during load developement, get one .. don't try to STOP it, that's plain dumb .. you are, in effect, trying to add more weight to the gun...

and its laughable that some might think putting 25# of lead on the sled will "break" a stock ... will a 100# heavier shooter break the stock? Nope ... but if you mechincally lock the stock in place .. even by placing the toe of a heavy kicker ON the bench and locking down the forearm, CAN break a stock ...

I don't use sleds and seldom shoot off bags, but not long ago fellow at range had a brand new Weatherby MK V in 300Weatherby and a LeadSled. I was some couple positions down from him and noticed him setting up and he placed the rear support just behind the pistol grip cap. I thought that looked strange, and sure enough when he fired the rifle, the pistol grip split cleanly(two piece stock) and he was not a happy camper. I walked up there and his friend standing there said that he had just told him not to put the stock as he did for it might break the stock. You could say that one needs to be smarter than a lead sled.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
its interesting to read MAKESHIFT advice from those that don't use the device.

its NOT used to do final adjustments or to "practice" .. its used to all you to do load dev and get on paper ...

all advice to the contrary is much like a fool that says to not use hearing protection ... or to not use a recoil pad ...

any rest, as everyone knows, creates a different POI ... doesn't matter if its shooting off the bags .. with a stick ... holding the forearm or NOT holding it .. all create different POI ...

none of which can be held "Against" the leadsled uniquely, now, can it?

Now, the rather large lefty shoouting a 1903a4 off of one, due to recoil, was sad ... but had nothing to do with the sled!


If you don't like getting the snot kicked out of you during load developement, get one .. don't try to STOP it, that's plain dumb .. you are, in effect, trying to add more weight to the gun...

and its laughable that some might think putting 25# of lead on the sled will "break" a stock ... will a 100# heavier shooter break the stock? Nope ... but if you mechincally lock the stock in place .. even by placing the toe of a heavy kicker ON the bench and locking down the forearm, CAN break a stock ...

Hey moron, read my post. As I clearly wrote, leadsleds, or other alternatives have their place. I didn't say I didn't use a leadsled or alternative, I do, both. That is why I know what a pita a leadsled is and how much easier in some ways it is to use the jeans. Also why I know that POI is so often far off with a lead sled.

As far as developing loads with a lead sled, only for chrono work, imo. A man can produce better groups shooting off bags, so if you want to compare accuracy between loads, get rid of the sled.

Moreover, the makeshift works as well, is easier on stocks, is soft and won't scratch the rifle and is more easily transported. To get from car to bench, even while carrying rifle and shooting bag, simply put the jeans with the shot bags in the legs around your neck, like a shaw.

Try reading before spouting.

Jeff,

quote:

tell us again about your vast and relevent experience using a leadsled? ever break a stock with one? ever even USED one?

no? and your post is relevent HOW?

dang, scott, i have to say i am amazed by you .. zero experience, even remotely related, but that never stops you from posting .. WOW, you and fuzzydave, what a pair

i am always stunned when a complete tryo, utterly void of experience in the matter, googles a bit and then posts like he's done everything ...

scotts, a man never found to be hidden behind his utter lack of experience...

I have been shooting big bores for much much longer than you have. That sir is a fact, sorry if that reality hurts. To me it is really pointless, but you seem to have a major hang up over it.

I clearly stated I have not used one, nor do I desire to use one, I see no point. If someone thinks a 264 Win mag needs a recoil reducing device they must be VERY recoil sensitive, period. If that is the case they might want to seriously consider not shooting a "big" kicker like his 375 H&H. I know a 105lb girls who will shoot a 375 H&H off of the bench with no recoil shield at all, and it doesn't bother her in the least. She will occasionally use a recoil shield with her 458WM.

If you like lead sleds great, more power to you. I don't. The only guy I know who uses one, does swear by it. He has only used it once to my knowledge though, as he usually has me sight in his 458 and he doesn't use it for his little 338 Winnie. I have another good friend that uses a Past shield whenever he shoots his hard kicker (M670 Winchester 300 Win mag). He won't shoot anything bigger than a 338 Winnie though (says he knows his limitations). The one time he did was three shots through my 405 Win, you would have thought his arm had been removed from his body all the crying he did about the recoil of that pea shooter.

BTW, I notice my stock comment brought out ALL the lead sled fans, go figure.

Please list the number and type of stocks you have broken using a lead slead. If this comes to you as 2nd hand information, then it's simply not the case. I know dozens of guys using the lead sled, including me with heavy calibur guns and not a single broken or cracked stock.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
If those cartridges beat you up, then I must agree with JPK. My daughter likes the shoulder recoil shield, but tells me it doesn't do much (I have never used one). Lead sleds break stocks, I don't use them either. A friend uses one and swears by it for his 458 WM. Of course I have never seen him use it though, as he typically just brings the 458 over to my place and has me sight it in for him.

I see no issue shooting 458 and 500 for chrono work and sight in off the bench, either.

I use a lead sled for all my load development, period. It makes the 416 easy to shoot off the bench, and it takes me out of the equation on the 204. I don't use it with my double rifle, however.
It should not be misconstrued as shooting practice.
I have been using the Evo-shield for big bore practice since last year. I am very impressed with it. It does add a bit to the length of pull, so it will change how your double fits you. So far that hasn't been a problem.

SCott,
REALLY? you know this isn't the first time you've been called out for your BS ..

btw, if you've never used a leadsled, how about SHUTTING UP? All those broken stocks you haven't ever seen, and all those shots you haven't ever taken on a lead sled .. wow, one could think you aren't much of a voice of expereince ... BEFORE knowing that you have had at least 10 other IDs, that from time to time even argued with yourself .. TEG, Axel, JUDY, Assclown, ToddG, ToddE, to name a few ..

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
you are right I have never owned a big bore nor hunted anything let alone dangerous game

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeff,

Never owned a 577/500. Not sure where you got that idea.

Oh, i don't know how i could have ever come up with that sort of a lie

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeff,

I once owned a 577/500.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...321078301#4321078301



just in case you forgot your little rant about your specific knowledge of the 577/500, and how you called me out, JUST LIKE THIS THREAD, over your ZERO experience ..

thanks scott .. you gave me a really good chuckle, thanks

Jeff,
You must be a real pussy if you need a lead sled. Hows that, laughing now buddy?

I seriously doubt you have idea how funny I find almost all of your comments on these threads, so if I can return the favor from time to time it makes me feel good.

I think I will try out my buddy's lead sled now. A 50 cal will shove me back several inches so lets think about what mass is required to stop that pesky recoil.

Since most recoil is rocket effect lets just start there, shall we. If shooting a 0.5" bore rifle with a muzzle pressure of 6000 psi the peak rocket thrust would be given by the following eqation:
((0.5^2) * (3.1415/4)) * 6000 psi = 1178.1 lbs

So the lead sled would need to weigh in at 1178.1 pounds to eliminate the recoil of that rifle.

I'll try that lead sled though. I figure it won't make much of a difference. How much weight, 20 lbs?

Jeff I hope you find this very funny, I do.

just to keep a record..

scott, i have no idea where you come up with your calcs .. seriously.. no one else does either, .. 1178ftlb of recoil? ..

that's alot .. what's the cahrge weight, gun weight, and velocity of your 1178ftlb load?

oh, you meant the OTHER recoil calc, that PEOPLE use, other than the voices in your head...

yeah, wow,, 1178ftlb of recoil .. dang, that's amazing

the more amazing part is it ONLY shooves you back several inches... just for the sake of disussion, lets say "several" means "6" or 1/2 a foot .. which would mean you would WEIGH, upper half of the body only, 1178.1ftlb /.5ft 2356.2 lbs ..

wow, amazing,,, your upper half boddy, by your own "statement" weighs in at greater than a long ton ..

dang, scott, you are a hulking monster.. the biggest stud in the whole world... you are in guiness book, right? as the world's heavest human being, then?

i mean, if not, you should document your amazing bulk ... no other human being has weighed that much ...

and, oh, yeah, aint math a pain?

how about your math, of
((0.5^2) * (3.1415/4)) * 6000 psi = 1178.1 lbs
being changed to a 308?
((0.308^2) * (3.1415/4)) * 6000 psi = 447 lbs
so, a 30 mauser with a 4" barrel has 447 lftb of energy? or a 30-06 with a 18" barrel has MORE recoil than one with a 48" barrel, as residual pressure would be LESS, and in scottymath, weight of the gun has NOTHING to do with it, as its not a scottymath variable ... so a 1oz 30-06 18" barrel would have the SAME "recoil" as a cz52? ,,,, yeah,,, there's brillance there...

no, wait a second .. scotty's litle math express the force exerted INTO THE AIR, after the bullet leaves the barrel, in all directions ... the weight of the gun.. be it 2# or a battleship, doesn't change his made up recoil numbers...

oh, shucks, scotty, foiled AGAIN

btw, scott, velocity of gas, monitored by pressure, has a slight felt recoil change, and can change the velocity of recoil ... slightly .. the mass of the ejecta is FAR more critical ... but if you had been shooting bigbores for a year, much less as long as you have been making it up, you'd know that...

have fun with the 1/2 ton of lead on a sled ...

your math is a little off, aint it, scotty?

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeff,
You must be a real pussy if you need a lead sled. Hows that, laughing now buddy?

I seriously doubt you have idea how funny I find almost all of your comments on these threads, so if I can return the favor from time to time it makes me feel good.

I think I will try out my buddy's lead sled now. A 50 cal will shove me back several inches so lets think about what mass is required to stop that pesky recoil.

Since most recoil is rocket effect lets just start there, shall we. If shooting a 0.5" bore rifle with a muzzle pressure of 6000 psi the peak rocket thrust would be given by the following eqation:
((0.5^2) * (3.1415/4)) * 6000 psi = 1178.1 lbs

So the lead sled would need to weigh in at 1178.1 pounds to eliminate the recoil of that rifle.

I'll try that lead sled though. I figure it won't make much of a difference. How much weight, 20 lbs?

Jeff I hope you find this very funny, I do.

I have used both routinely with good results.

Now have the newer version of the Lead Sled.

Have always used the super mag-plus PAST.

I did have to build a taller bench-seat.

I began using them routinely, 3 years ago after an injury.

They have allowed me to continue firing my larger calibre weapons,

albeit now from the southpaw position.

Another trick for the bench, instead of a sand bags, is a bag of lead shot. Same idea -used between shoulder and gun butt. Very effective. And cheap, if you reload, or use a muzzle loading shotgun.

I bought a PAST and learned real quick I was glad I wasnt a woman having to fool with a bra. I cut the straps off and sewed the pad on a shirt. Shirt now looks like the one John Wayne wore in an African movie. I dont look like John Wayne though. I'm much better looking. But the pad works fine that way and laundering the shirt doesnt seem to hurt the pad.

I have shot a 458 Win Mag on the lead sled And I didn't feel anything. He had a couple bags of
shot holding it down. For developing a load you
couldn't ask for anything more.