This is probably flogging a dead horse...but,
I would like to hear some pros and cons about putting a .404 Jeff on a STD length action (eg M98 or M70 /'30-06 length') vs. a mag action (eg CZ mag or true M98 mag or '.416 Rig action').

Like the .375 H&H it seems to be an 'in betweener' but most you see are on STD length actions.
From perusing actions like those from Montana, Hein or Empire it is obvious that there are many '.375' actions -i.e. STD length actions based on the M70 or M98 but with 3.65" mag boxes.....its OAL is also less than a .375 H is it not?

So, other than bolt faces and mag width/rails, what would be the main disadvantage to putting a .404 on one of these other than perhaps one less in the mag?

Opinions???

Cheers

Unless I am completely mistaken, the majority of .404's historically were built on standard length actions. If you check the usually accepted dimensions for this fine, old cartridge, you will see that it is actually a tad shorter than the sainted .375. Since many a first class .375 has been made by opening a standard M98 at the rear with no difficulties in operation whatever, I see no reason why you could not do exactly the same thing with the .404.

it should work...we turned an old model 70 in 270 into a 458Lott and used the original magazine box, etc. We ended up using the original follower as well. My 'smith just milled 1/2 the difference in width between the 270 and 458Lott case dimensions. Ditto on the magazine box, just a little "fiddling around" necessary to make it hold three and feed every time.

Rich

you can shorten the length of neck by .2" and have a cal length. it will have no "length issues" and will only be a "semi wildcat"



that is a looooong neck. trim at 2.66" and you will have a 300 win mag length brass.

not for everyone but hey what is?

quote:

you can shorten the length of neck by .2" and have a cal length. it will have no "length issues" and will only be a "semi wildcat"

If at the same time one necked it to .375 and shortened it another .05 he has a .375 AR....well almost!!!!

Boomer might want it in .358 and in a BLR!!!!!

vapo...

the 35 newton is making a comeback via jamison making brass soon so i think i might go old school for a super 35 with no belt...

a 35 newton is super close to the soon to be 375 ruger though

yeah the shortened neck 404 jeffe would almost be a 423 a.r.

With a standard 98 sized action (recarburized if necessary) the main thing seems to me to keep the ammo loaded to traditional (400 grain @ 2150 fps) pressures.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
Unless I am completely mistaken, the majority of .404's historically were built on standard length actions... Since many a first class .375 has been made by opening a standard M98 at the rear with no difficulties in operation whatever,

I read a lot about opening the 98 to the rear. However, in looking at a VZ 24 laying on the desk, I am wondering how the bolt stop is handled. There is nothing to cut back and still have a bolt stop. This probably belongs in Gunsmithing, but it came up here, so I ask the question. How? Thanks,

go to cabelas fine rifles sight there you will see 2 rifles built on standard actions in 416 which is bigger than 404 they are by J.L.WILKINS also westey richards has a 404 on there sight in standard action as does thadd scott who also has a 404 by jeffery, yes it fits in a standard action.........paul

Remember that the Winchester M70 Classic is the same length action in .30-06 and .375 H&H.

There is no weakening of the WinM70.30-06 by turning it into a .404 Jeffery.

I used a Post-64 Model 70 action (push feed) in .300 WINMAG to build my .404. All I had to do was put a .375 mag box in it and have the feed rails modified. The bolt face was large enough to accept Norma & BELL .404 brass and I used 100 .375 RUM cases fireformed for practice shooting. It would probably be better to open the bolt face another .005" or so but, In my case in hasen't been necessary. Feeding was the only real problem and supposedly, Dennis Olsen is fixing that now.

I have read the issue of pressure before - that if you use a STD M98 action it is best to keep it to traditional ballistics of a 400gr @ 2150..

How true is this, and how much room do you have to move - say aiming for a safe 400gr@ 2250fps.

I mean obviously this depends on bullet material, powder, temp, free bore, action type/make/age/metals and many other variables, but from the sounds of this advice you are getting close to 'maxing' a modified M98's strength with a .404

Is this true, as there seem to be many out there and more .375's running at higher pressures than the .404 (by a fair margin, no?) and these .375's see years of down right abuse all over Africa....

There is more to it than absolute pressure. the 404J case head is larger than the .375 H&H sace head. At the same internal pressure you will get more bolt face back thrust from the 404J.

Also, the attraction of the 98 action is the lighter overall gun weight and nicer handling. If you bring the 404J up to modern (read higher) pressures, recoil will get unpleasant in a hurry. If you want to increase the velocity/pressure, look at the model 70 for conversion.

LD

The M98 is fine to use, since one only need to alter the magazine and bottom metal, and leave the action original.
There is no problems with pushing it to 2400 with a 400 grs bullet, weight is adjusted with barrelcontour and mercury cylinders in buttstock.

Only for the .416 Rigby and simmilar is it needed to remoove metall from the action - somthing I would not do, regardless of who ever has doone it before.

My .404 is a Cogswell and Harrison, built on a standard (probably ex-military) '98 Mauser, as it has the thumb-slot for charger loading. ALL markings have been removed from the receiver, and even the serial number is marked only on the trigger guard.

I've owned the rifle for over thirty years, and it has digested many energetic loads in that time....often with 400 grains at over 2400 fps. At that speed, the recoil in an 8.5-pound rifle is pretty grim as others have mentioned. At the factory-load's 2150 fps, it's much more pleasant to shoot, and still a very effective round.

The bottom locking-lug abutment has been shortened a tad in my rifle, but it has worked just fine for several thousand of my handloaded rounds, plus however many it had fired before I obtained the rifle.

These days, the rifle sees more cast-bullet loads than anything else, but even so, a 400-grain cast bullet at 2100+ is STILL a .404 Jeffery!

My .404 J is on a 1909 M98, it has been recarbed/Hardened for what it's worth.

My smith has built dozens of .404 J's on M98's and has not had one fail yet, but to be sure i just tsick to 80 gr of AR2209 behind the woodleigh 400 gr which is the equivalent of the old English load. The M98 makes for a beautiful litght and sweet handling big bore, my .404 J on the M98 handles better than any other actioned rifle I own.

I have an Ovendorf Mauser here as I type. I have a 7mm RUM factory round laying in the magazine box. The bolt will not pick it up, the bullet nose hangs up on the feed ramp, but it does fit! I would expect the conversion to be fairly straightforward by a competent gunsmith like the on at our shop. Now, if I could just get Remington to build 416 or 458 RUM's.

Rich

rich...have you been to www.z-hat.com there he has everything for the "ultracats"

What I see when I kick up the website is a bunch of Rocky Gibbs designs "borrowed" and reworked a little...all
on the 30-06.

Rich