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| one of us |
I was at the range this morning with a friend and his new Nitro .500 double rifle. He was shooting the big Woodleigh bullet and his shots were crossing a 50 yards and shooting high. About 5" high and the right barrel was shooting about 3" to the left and the left barrel about the same to the right. It will probably be going back to have the regulation checked but he would like to test some different handloads first. Any one out there shoot the .500 Nitro and what powder do you use? Starting loads would be appreciated. thanks. | ||
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| one of us |
Hello DB Bill. I belive these doubles are sighted in on a shorter distans than 100 yards. I belive the proper distans will be approx. 50-60 yards. I dont shoot a double myself, but a buddy of mine had the same problem with his 45-70. You'll find several loads in the A-Sqare reloading manual "Any shoot you want." ------------------ Arild. | |||
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one of us |
quote: DB Bill, what your friend is experienceing is too much barrel time! The load needs to be faster! Be very careful here, because a double rifle will not tollorate high pressure! Don't listen to folks who tell you that all double rifles are regulated for 50 yds or less, this is simply not true, but is a common misconception. from muzzle to point of regulation the distance between the right and left shots should be no more that the distance between the barrels if the load is perfect, but perfect loads where a double rifle is concerned is almost imposible. Most are regulated for 100 mtrs. This means that from muzle to 100 mtrs both barrels should shoot very close together, (a 4" group, two shots from each barrel, with the right barrel fireing first always, in a 500 NE is acceptable at 100 mtrs) and not seperate appreciably for twice that distance. That is another common misconception that doubles are not usable for any distance past the regulation point! One thing I might add here is, the rifle should be held in the hands so the rifle is free to recoil naturally, not rested on sand bags. It is OK to rest the your hand on the bag, but not the rifle. What is happening is the bullets are staying in the barrels too long, and the right barrel is shooting left, and high because the recoil of the rifle is moveing the barrel up, and to the right,but not quick enough and reverse for the other barrel. If the speed is increased, the bullet will exit the barrel sooner in the recoil movement, makeing it shoot lower on the target, and not as much to the left. This process is explained in Graeme Wright's book "SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE" available from HDS. For anyone new to loading for a double, this book is required reading! You see, handloading for a side by side double rifle is a whole different ball game, with it's own rules. It might help if I knew what make the rifle is, and if it is old or new! Additionally what powders, bullet weight, and is he useing filler in his loads, if so what type? You might send a private E-mail to Rusty, or Ray for some help, but send them the particulars of your friend's loads. Both Ray,and Rusty are pritty much up on loading for doubles, and know all the rules! I'm glad you posted this query, because you would be surprised how many well known gun smiths, and savy handloaders there are who simply do not know their butts from a hole in the ground about loading for a double rifle! No matter how long you have loaded for single barrel rifles, you can forget everything you know, and go back to school when it comes to loading for a double! I'm sure this is all as clear as mud, but Graeme Wright can explain it far better than I, the that little book is an assentual piece of merchandize. ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-27-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Go up a grain at a time until the groups come together if the shots are crossing over..I suspect 1 grain will do it, perhaps 2....Get it to about 2100 FPS on the chronograph.. If that doesn't work then go down a grain at a time but this rarely happens... As to the elevation after you get the shots together, you may have to file them in for your eyesight.... Always remember when shooting a double rifle to shot right, left, right, left...only. With the 500 N.E. always use IMR4350 and you will substantially reduce recoil.... It's a whole nuther world. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I forgot to mention he was shooting off a typical "benchrest-type" rest with the butt supported by a rabbit-ear sand bag. He was holding the rifle pretty solidly but I believe the fact that it was shooting so high at 50 yards may be due to the fact the rifle was recoiling away from the front-rest. I am trying to fabricate a convenient way to shoot off-hand with some type of support that won't be a problem. | |||
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| one of us |
DB Bill, no double rifle will shoot properly with the rifle touching anything other than the shooter's forehand, shoulder, and cheek! The way I shoot my doubles is, I use two sets of sticks with a heavy rubber stretched between two of the tops, forming a sling. The third leg, is shorter so as not to come into contact with the rubber sling. My hand on the forestock rests on this sling, and holds the rifle in the normal manner. My right elbow is supported by another shorter tripod,with a sand bag on top. Both these tripods are adjusted so as to support my arms in the possition they would be in while shooting off hand. You may stand, or sit as long as the contact points are not compromized. I personally stand, simply because that is the way I'm usually possitioned when I shoot at game. The rifle absolutely "MUST" be allowed to recoil in the normal manner. DB Bill, I think you are quite correct in your opinion that the the rifle is recoiling away from the rest, and the V bag at the butt is a real group destroyer where doubles are concerened! Considering the cost of a double rifle, I think it is not too much to ask a shooter the go a little out of his way to make his investment work as it was intended, not to mention the fact this rifle may very well save his life. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I've had several e-mails asking why in the h*ll we're trying to regulate a double at 100 yards...we weren't, read the post as it says clearly "50 yards"  | |||
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| one of us |
There seems to be a misconception here about the regulateing of a double rifle! YOU don't regulate the rifle, that is done when the rifle is made. All you are doing is finding a handload that will shoot to the factory regulation. MOST double rifles are regulated at 100 MTRS at the factory. It is easier to find the load at 50 mtrs, all that is required is to find a load that is within a reasonable composite group of a RT, LFT, RT, LFT fireing order, starting with fouled but cool barrels. In other words if you are getting a 3" composite group @ 50 yds, and right for elevation, the group will be even tighter at 100 yds. All you are doing with your loads is to determen at what point the "CROSSING" will take place. Idealy, the crossing should take place at 100 mtrs, and if you get a load that does this, anything from muzzel to 200 mtrs will be within proper regulation, with only a little hold over at 200! The rifle that DB Bill is discussing, is dead on, except the load they have been useing is too light. G. Wright reccomends a load of 108.0, to 110.0 grs of IMR4350, with a570 gr bullet, and fired by a Federal 210 primer, for a speed of 2100 fps, developing 5844 fpe @ muzzle! The load they have been useing will only push that 570 gr bullet @ around 1900 fps. Speeding will shorten the barrel time bringing the right barrel down, and to the right, and the left barrel down, and to the left, mergeing the two barrels, for a composit group! Nothing more is needed! Todd E, what rifle do you have chambered for 9.3X74R? I have a new Merkel 140E 9.3X74R and it shoots a 3.5" 4 shot group @ 100 as well, and 3.25" @ 50 yds. with S&B factory 286 gr soft points. It will print the first two, a right, left, from cool barrels into 2"@ 100 yds. It is going to make one hell of a woods rifle for North America, not to mention it is legal for DGs in Africa! I have Woodliegh softs, and solids ordered to work my hunting loads. This rifle was regulated at the factory @ 100 mtrs., as most are. ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-28-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Mac, You sure don't leave much room for conversation!  I don't know what anybody could add to that....other than I prefer a standing bench rest of one kind or another with no rifle contact meaning my hand under the forend and full contact with cheek and butt, no sissy pad here, it'll mess up the works...I built mine, its an H frame, adjustable up and down. It's on plow shear bases..rests my forend on my hand and my right elbow on an extension...------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Ray...that position sounds a llttle kinky to me  but thanks for the help guys...we're going to give it a go again this weekend. | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, the reason I use the sticks is they are always in my SUV, and I do most of my working up loads for double rifles in the woods. You can't get anything done on a public range. When you open the oak&leather case and expose a double rifle, the question start, and they usually don't stop. I don't mind this when I'm only practiceing, but when working up loads I need to concentrate! You know like most retards, I have a one track mind!  ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
MAC, I know what regulation is. I was just too lazy to correct everyone so I followed their misuse of terms. My 9.3 X 74 R is in fact a Davide Pedersoli. I purchased it as a "cheap" woods double and frankly have been surprised by how well it shoots and was made. I like the Merkels as well though and seriously considered buying one as well, but in the end my cheaper half drove the Pedersoli. The .475 is a Jeffery by the way and spends it days collecting social security. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Tod E, I have one of those D. pedersoli doubles, I ordered mine before they were available to the public! Mine is marked "TRAIL GUNS ARMORY" and was ordered after I saw an article in GUNS&AMMO back in the 80s about the new 45-70 double rifle that was due at any time, and would sell for $900. I called Col. Powasnik,now deceased, in Legue City,Tx, owner of TGA, to see about getting one. I was told they had not been produced yet, except for the prototypes Spangenberger, and himself had used on an African plains game hunt! He also told me they had already found out they were not going to be able to sell these rifles for the $900 tag mentioned in the magazine article. The good Col told me if I could get them a $100 deposit before Sept 1st he would let me have one at the quoted price. It was Aug 24th, but there was a check in the mail, for the $900, in about two hours. My rifle came about 1 1/2 years later, and was serial No. 134. At the range the same day it printed the first group of four at point of aim, and 3" center to center, with Winchester 405 ammo! It did the same with the hot rounds I use in my No1. This rifle has since been re-chambered to 458 RCBS, and still shoots 3" groups at 100 yds, though it lets me know I fired it! Folks are missing a bargin, even at todays price for the Delux version from Pedersoli! Your Jeffery, and I are probably from the same graduateing class! PS: [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-29-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
What is an ".458 RCBS"? | |||
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| one of us |
DB Bill, the 458 RCBS is a wildcat round that was developed back in the early 70s by Fred Hunington, It is a 45 basic case shortened to 2.75" and loaded with head dia of .500", rim dia of .595", neck dia of .483", body angle (deg's/side) .181, Case capacity of 100.13 grs of water, loaded length 3.60, rim thickness .065", primer LR. The loaded cartridge standing side by side with a 375 H&H, they are the same length! In a Ruger No1 it can safely be loaded some hotter, but I load for my double rifle, and shoot the same load in my No1. The load Hunington settled on was 65.0 grs of IMR4064, 500 gr rn bullet @ 1875 fps. I use this powder charge, but substitute a 400 gr bullet for 2050 fps, or a 480 gr Woodliegh @ 1930 fps in my rifles! This cartridge is shown on page 635 of John Donnelly's "HANDLOADER'S MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS", and in a back issue of Handloader magazine # 56 pg 26 This cartridge is an easy re-chamber from 45-70 in a Ruger No1, or the Pedersoli double rifle. It is way too long for any of the lever actions. It is a very good cartridge, and is loadable with backed out 45-70 dies. HDS will make dies for this round, but are special order, with about an 18 month wait! I have been loading it with 45-70 dies for about 10 years. No trouble! ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-30-2001).] | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Mac, I truly considered getting the 45-70 version of the D. Pedersoli rifle and rechambering to a Sharps, but talked myself out of it somehow. Who did the rechamber job? Was it as straight forward and simple as it sounds? Please tell me about it. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
quote: Todd, the rechamber job was done by: Mr Williamson did my double rifle! He made the reamer out of a 458 Win Mag reamer, and I'm sure he still has it. The re-chambering of a No1 is easy, a simple streight forward re-chambering job. The double, however is a little more involved, being a little harder to set up in the lathe, which equals a little more cost, but not out of line considering the expertise, and machine time involved. The reamer has to be turned instead of the barrel, requireing a very slow operation. He did mine for $250, but I'm an old time customer! He may do one for you at the same rate since he already has the reamer. Give him a call, or I will give him a call if you want, it is a local call for me! This conversion on a Ruger No1 is a real nice, and economical way to get a very nice heavy rifle that handles like a carbine, with it's 22" barrel, one thing other than the re-chambering you need is a very good reciol pad! NECG also makes some nice AFRICAN style sight replacements for the No1 getting as close to a classic Farquartsen as you can get without $10,000 to spend, for a rough origenal! Actually, this is a far BETTER rifle than the old classic, anyway!
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-30-2001).] | |||
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| <Terry P> |
Mac, Wow!! That is alot of info on loads for the double rifle. I have a Merkel 470 which is crossing just a little at 50 yards. You have rekindled my interest in shooting this thing. You mentioned "Shooting the British Double Rifle" available from HDS. Who is HDS? I would very much like to have this book. Thanks, Terry | ||
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| one of us |
Sorry about that Terry, HDS is "HUNTINGTON DIE SPECIALITIES" www.huntingtons.com ------------------ ..Mac >>>===(x)===> DUGABOY DESIGNS Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 09-01-2001).] [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 09-01-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Terry, you say your 470 is crossing just a little at 50 yds. Are you shooting factory ammo, or handloads? What does it doo at 100 yds? To the last question I think I can predict the answer, it crosses more right? What needs to happen with your rifle is the load needs to speed up slightly. the bullets are getting too much barrel time! ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: MacD37, I don't own a double but really enjoyed reading your posts on the is subject. Thanks for sharing a good knowledge of the inner workings of the double rifle. 470 Mbogo | |||
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| one of us |
We went out and shot the .500 NE both with some new factory loads plus some handloads plus we also supported the rifle differently when shooting. the later solved the "shooting high" problem as it now shoots approx. 1" high at 50 yards. On the advice of a well-known maker of double rifles we decreased the powder charge slightly and while the rifle still crosses at 50 yards it was much reduced. We fired some new factory ammo and that was as bad as the original reloads.....groups were 8" to 10" apart at 50 yards and were "crossed"...right barrel to the left and vice-versa. I think the rifle is going back. | |||
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| One of Us |
Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds linke a pain in the butt!! | |||
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| one of us |
DB, Sounds to me like you got hold of a salesman and when he said decrease the velocity he was probably wrong... Increase the velocity and the groups will come together, if the gun is cross firing. rarely the opposite. My suggestion would be to send the gun to David Yale in Yellow Jacket Colorado and let him re-regulate the gun..He is the best I have seen at that very difficult task.....It would cost a little more but if you can afford a double you surely can afford a first class job of regulating....L&L Interprises out of Nevada is also very good. Want to know how well a double is capable of shooting?? then shoot a group with the right barrel, another with the left barrel...the gun will shoot only as good as the worst barrel shoots...... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Each of the barrels groups better than I would have expected but they are far apart. | |||
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| one of us |
Bill, Your half way there....if both barrels are accurate, shoot for a load that will equal the worst barrel...group should come together with a certain load without re-regulating... If they are cross firing an inch at 50 yds then a grain up should fix it or a maybe two grains...don't worry about up and down, that don't count, you can fix that with a 3 corner file later... It's really not difficult once you get things sorted out in your mind and have done it a time or two... Always remember you can regulate or sight in a flinch, also.. | |||
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one of us |
Bill- I have a 470 NE from Butch Searcy and had a similar issue. Butch was great and gave me alot of advice on how to properly shoot and regulate the gun. You are doing all the right things. I solved the problem by adjusting my loads such that the barrel time was optimized. At least in the 470 and I'll bet in the 500, RL-15 is king. I also used Woodleigh bullets. I also add a small amount of Polyester filler on top of the powder charge to fill the case fully. Seating the bullet on this and assuring compression results in far more uniform pressures and much more consistent velocities. In these big rounds a filler is PERFECTLY safe as long as there is no air space allowed between the bullet and the powder. Using this approach I was able to slowly ( 1 gr increase at a time) work up a load that regulated virtually perfectly at 50 yrds and does not cross at 100 yrds.Have Fun-Rob | |||
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| one of us |
I believe all Searcy rifles are regulated with Federal Factory loads and will also print center with RL-15 and 215 Fed. mag primers, and woodleigh bullets with a proper powder charge.....the ones I have worked with for clients did...I have also had good luck with H4350 in the 500's.... If Fed would cut loose with some of thoes 216 primers, it would save a lot of guess work...but they won't. ------------------ | |||
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| <bongo500> |
Ray, If you can convince Fed to sell 216 primmers you can put me on the list for 5000. Now let me ask you a question about the charges of IMR 4350 you are using for the 500NE. You mentioned 4350 many times, but never did mention the weight. | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Ray, Do tell us what the IMR 4350 or H4350 charges you have used in the 500 NE with success. I am going to guess with IMR4350 that the load is around 115 grains. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Todd, usually between 106 and 108 grs of 4350.... ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Thanks Ray. Actually, my first guess was 105 grains, but I second guessed myself. Todd E | ||
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| <Butch Searcy> |
I load the 3" with 110 grs IMR 4831,and the 3 1/4" with 115 grs. of IMR 4831. Remember with RL-15 you must use an over powder wad, if you don't you will experience hang fires(not good). Instead of the polyester fiber fill, I've gone to the 3/8" very dense styrofoam. I've used this for several years with excelent results. | ||
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| one of us |
Another great, very informative thread!! Is there a site to look at those Pedersoli Rifles? Mike | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Mike, You can look them over at cabelas.com. They sell them for $2299.00. I have one in 9.3X74R and it is a nice (very nice) double for the money. You can also check them out at Davide-Pedersoli.com Todd E [This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 09-10-2001).] | ||
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| one of us |
Thanks Todd :-) Mike ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Bongo 500, I had a nice 577 around here for awhile and played with it at the range with charges of RL-15, Imr-4831 and IMR4350...All shot well with that old gun, surprisingly enouge as long as I kept it at 2100FPS with Woodleighs... I could tell a difinate difference in recoil between the powders....IMR-4350 kicked considerably less, but still enough to keep your attention...I don't recall the loads but I got them out of Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright, 1st Addition. ------------------ | |||
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| <bongo500> |
Thank you Ray. I will load some 500NE with 4350 tomorrow and see how it works in my gun. I am using 112 grains of Norma 204, Woodl FMJ 570, RP91/2 and getting 2100fps. It is a pretty close load to yours. | ||
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