28 August 2001, 10:10
DB Bill
Any one out there shoot the .500 Nitro and what powder do you use? Starting loads would be appreciated. thanks.
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Shoot well, and hit hard.
Arild.
quote:
Originally posted by DB Bill:
I was at the range this morning with a friend and his new Nitro .500 double rifle. He was shooting the big Woodleigh bullet and his shots were crossing a 50 yards and shooting high. About 5" high and the right barrel was shooting about 3" to the left and the left barrel about the same to the right. It will probably be going back to have the regulation checked but he would like to test some different handloads first.Any one out there shoot the .500 Nitro and what powder do you use? Starting loads would be appreciated. thanks.
DB Bill, what your friend is experienceing is too much barrel time! The load needs to be faster! Be very careful here, because a double rifle will not tollorate high pressure!
Don't listen to folks who tell you that all double rifles are regulated for 50 yds or less, this is simply not true, but is a common misconception. from muzzle to point of regulation the distance between the right and left shots should be no more that the distance between the barrels if the load is perfect, but perfect loads where a double rifle is concerned is almost imposible. Most are regulated for 100 mtrs. This means that from muzle to 100 mtrs both barrels should shoot very close together, (a 4" group, two shots from each barrel, with the right barrel fireing first always, in a 500 NE is acceptable at 100 mtrs) and not seperate appreciably for twice that distance. That is another common misconception that doubles are not usable for any distance past the regulation point! One thing I might add here is, the rifle should be held in the hands so the rifle is free to recoil naturally, not rested on sand bags. It is OK to rest the your hand on the bag, but not the rifle.
What is happening is the bullets are staying in the barrels too long, and the right barrel is shooting left, and high because the recoil of the rifle is moveing the barrel up, and to the right,but not quick enough and reverse for the other barrel. If the speed is increased, the bullet will exit the barrel sooner in the recoil movement, makeing it shoot lower on the target, and not as much to the left. This process is explained in Graeme Wright's book "SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE" available from HDS. For anyone new to loading for a double, this book is required reading! You see, handloading for a side by side double rifle is a whole different ball game, with it's own rules.
It might help if I knew what make the rifle is, and if it is old or new! Additionally what powders, bullet weight, and is he useing filler in his loads, if so what type?
You might send a private E-mail to Rusty, or Ray for some help, but send them the particulars of your friend's loads. Both Ray,and Rusty are pritty much up on loading for doubles, and know all the rules!
I'm glad you posted this query, because you would be surprised how many well known gun smiths, and savy handloaders there are who simply do not know their butts from a hole in the ground about loading for a double rifle! No matter how long you have loaded for single barrel rifles, you can forget everything you know, and go back to school when it comes to loading for a double!
If you will take the barrel assembly and align the sights on an aiming point at 100 yds,lock it so it can't move, and chamber two empty cases with no primers in the barrels, then look down the sights makeing sure they are on point of aim. Then look through the primer holes of the empty cases in the chambers you will see that the right barrel will be looking at a point to the left of the point of aim, and low. Convercely, the left barrel will be looking right, and low of point of aim. If you think for a moment you will see that the recoil should move the right barrel up and to the right just enough to make the bullet exit the muzzle just as the barrel passes the point of aim, and the same thing for left barrel but reversed. So if the right barrel is hitting too far to the left, and high, it needs to exit sooner, with the extra recoil makeing the right barrel rise up and to the right. The sharper the recoil the more streight back the rifle will recoil, with less muzzle rise before the bullet exits!
I'm sure this is all as clear as mud, but Graeme Wright can explain it far better than I, the that little book is an assentual piece of merchandize.
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-27-2001).]
If that doesn't work then go down a grain at a time but this rarely happens...
As to the elevation after you get the shots together, you may have to file them in for your eyesight....
Always remember when shooting a double rifle to shot right, left, right, left...only.
With the 500 N.E. always use IMR4350 and you will substantially reduce recoil....
It's a whole nuther world.
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Ray Atkinson
DB Bill, I think you are quite correct in your opinion that the the rifle is recoiling away from the rest, and the V bag at the butt is a real group destroyer where doubles are concerened! Considering the cost of a double rifle, I think it is not too much to ask a shooter the go a little out of his way to make his investment work as it was intended, not to mention the fact this rifle may very well save his life.
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
Anyway, the advise you have received so far is dead on. Good luck and good shooting.
Todd E
The rifle that DB Bill is discussing, is dead on, except the load they have been useing is too light. G. Wright reccomends a load of 108.0, to 110.0 grs of IMR4350, with a570 gr bullet, and fired by a Federal 210 primer, for a speed of 2100 fps, developing 5844 fpe @ muzzle! The load they have been useing will only push that 570 gr bullet @ around 1900 fps. Speeding will shorten the barrel time bringing the right barrel down, and to the right, and the left barrel down, and to the left, mergeing the two barrels, for a composit group! Nothing more is needed!
Todd E, what rifle do you have chambered for 9.3X74R? I have a new Merkel 140E 9.3X74R and it shoots a 3.5" 4 shot group @ 100 as well, and 3.25" @ 50 yds. with S&B factory 286 gr soft points. It will print the first two, a right, left, from cool barrels into 2"@ 100 yds. It is going to make one hell of a woods rifle for North America, not to mention it is legal for DGs in Africa! I have Woodliegh softs, and solids ordered to work my hunting loads. This rifle was regulated at the factory @ 100 mtrs., as most are.
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-28-2001).]
I don't know what anybody could add to that....other than I prefer a standing bench rest of one kind or another with no rifle contact meaning my hand under the forend and full contact with cheek and butt, no sissy pad here, it'll mess up the works...I built mine, its an H frame, adjustable up and down. It's on plow shear bases..rests my forend on my hand and my right elbow on an extension...------------------
Ray Atkinson
but thanks for the help guys...we're going to give it a go again this weekend.
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
I know what regulation is. I was just too lazy to correct everyone so I followed their misuse of terms.
My 9.3 X 74 R is in fact a Davide Pedersoli. I purchased it as a "cheap" woods double and frankly have been surprised by how well it shoots and was made. I like the Merkels as well though and seriously considered buying one as well, but in the end my cheaper half drove the Pedersoli.
The .475 is a Jeffery by the way and spends it days collecting social security.
Todd E
This rifle has since been re-chambered to 458 RCBS, and still shoots 3" groups at 100 yds, though it lets me know I fired it! Folks are missing a bargin, even at todays price for the Delux version from Pedersoli!
Your Jeffery, and I are probably from the same graduateing class!
PS:
The comment about regulation was not aimed at anyone in particular, but was to clarify just one more of the things about double rifles that seems to be misconstrued, by most people! No flame intended! It is just that I can be a little technical at times, and that is often mistaken for sarcasm ! Damn computer! you cant see facial expressions, or hear voice inflection.! 
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-29-2001).]
The load Hunington settled on was 65.0 grs of IMR4064, 500 gr rn bullet @ 1875 fps.
I use this powder charge, but substitute a 400 gr bullet for 2050 fps, or a 480 gr Woodliegh @ 1930 fps in my rifles!
This cartridge is shown on page 635 of John Donnelly's "HANDLOADER'S MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS", and in a back issue of Handloader magazine # 56 pg 26
This cartridge is an easy re-chamber from 45-70 in a Ruger No1, or the Pedersoli double rifle. It is way too long for any of the lever actions. It is a very good cartridge, and is loadable with backed out 45-70 dies. HDS will make dies for this round, but are special order, with about an 18 month wait! I have been loading it with 45-70 dies for about 10 years. No trouble!
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-30-2001).]
I truly considered getting the 45-70 version of the D. Pedersoli rifle and rechambering to a Sharps, but talked myself out of it somehow.
Who did the rechamber job? Was it as straight forward and simple as it sounds? Please tell me about it.
Todd E
quote:
Originally posted by Todd E:
Mac,
Who did the rechamber job? Was it as straight forward and simple as it sounds? Please tell me about it.Todd E
Todd, the rechamber job was done by:
Williamson precision gunsmithing
117 Pipeline Rd
Hurst,Texas
Phone (817)285-0064
Mr Williamson did my double rifle! He made the reamer out of a 458 Win Mag reamer, and I'm sure he still has it.
The re-chambering of a No1 is easy, a simple streight forward re-chambering job. The double, however is a little more involved, being a little harder to set up in the lathe, which equals a little more cost, but not out of line considering the expertise, and machine time involved. The reamer has to be turned instead of the barrel, requireing a very slow operation. He did mine for $250, but I'm an old time customer! He may do one for you at the same rate since he already has the reamer. Give him a call, or I will give him a call if you want, it is a local call for me!
This conversion on a Ruger No1 is a real nice, and economical way to get a very nice heavy rifle that handles like a carbine, with it's 22" barrel, one thing other than the re-chambering you need is a very good reciol pad! NECG also makes some nice AFRICAN style sight replacements for the No1 getting as close to a classic Farquartsen as you can get without $10,000 to spend, for a rough origenal! Actually, this is a far BETTER rifle than the old classic, anyway!
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-30-2001).]
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 09-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 09-01-2001).]
What needs to happen with your rifle is the load needs to speed up slightly. the bullets are getting too much barrel time!
If your useing handloads please tell me the recipe, powder, primer, case brand, and bullet, and how far the rifle is crossing at 50 yds., and maybe I can help put it on a dime.
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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art
My suggestion would be to send the gun to David Yale in Yellow Jacket Colorado and let him re-regulate the gun..He is the best I have seen at that very difficult task.....It would cost a little more but if you can afford a double you surely can afford a first class job of regulating....L&L Interprises out of Nevada is also very good.
Want to know how well a double is capable of shooting?? then shoot a group with the right barrel, another with the left barrel...the gun will shoot only as good as the worst barrel shoots......
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Ray Atkinson
If they are cross firing an inch at 50 yds then a grain up should fix it or a maybe two grains...don't worry about up and down, that don't count, you can fix that with a 3 corner file later...
It's really not difficult once you get things sorted out in your mind and have done it a time or two...
Always remember you can regulate or sight in a flinch, also.. 
If Fed would cut loose with some of thoes 216 primers, it would save a lot of guess work...but they won't.
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Ray Atkinson
If you can convince Fed to sell 216 primmers you can put me on the list for 5000.
Now let me ask you a question about the charges of IMR 4350 you are using for the 500NE. You mentioned 4350 many times, but never did mention the weight.
Have you tried it on the 577NE?
Thanks in advance.
Do tell us what the IMR 4350 or H4350 charges you have used in the 500 NE with success. I am going to guess with IMR4350 that the load is around 115 grains.
Todd E
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Ray Atkinson
Todd E
Mike
You can look them over at cabelas.com. They sell them for $2299.00. I have one in 9.3X74R and it is a nice (very nice) double for the money. You can also check them out at Davide-Pedersoli.com
Todd E
[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 09-10-2001).]
Mike
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Victory through superior firepower!
I could tell a difinate difference in recoil between the powders....IMR-4350 kicked considerably less, but still enough to keep your attention...I don't recall the loads but I got them out of Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright, 1st Addition.
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Ray Atkinson
I will load some 500NE with 4350 tomorrow and see how it works in my gun. I am using 112 grains of Norma 204, Woodl FMJ 570, RP91/2 and getting 2100fps. It is a pretty close load to yours.
I used Rel 15+ RP91/2 for loading the 577NE but had problems with hangfires. Than I was told to use the primmers from delaborated
470NE Fed ammo. I did it(it is the expensive way to obtain primmers) and the hangfires stoped. The secret seems to be the 216 primmers.
Unfortunately I could never find another source for them.
So I will try 4350 and see what happens.