OK, I have a bunch of small and medium caliber rifles from 17 HMR through 300WSM and added the 375 H&H last year. I really want to add a 40+ caliber big bore rifle. I know that the 416 Remington is the modern standard but I want somethoing diffferent.
What should I build on a Montana Rifle Company, long action that would be in a more traditional "African" caliber (not a wildcat)?
This would be a traditional blue steel and wood gun.

.416 Rigby.

George

Great question...I am a completely inexperienced African hunter as of this moment, so I would be greatly interested in any educated replies. GeorgeS's post is somewhat expected; 416 Rigby seems to have quite the following on this board and, in general, among the great majority of serious African hunters...probably for good reason.

Reimer Johannsen .416 Rigby $11K:



Frank Wells .458 Lott $5K:

416 Taylor would be a good choice.
I am not sure how long the Montana action is, but the Taylor is simply the 458 Win Mag necked down to .416 caliber.
I would say this is a pretty popular round, if not super 'traditional'.

I guess I also suggest this because I think I have a new set of RCBS dies around for it.

Other good choices:
458 WM, 416 Rem, 416 Rigby, maybe the 458 Lott, but it could be too long.

The 500 A-Square and other .50+ calibers are nice, but reloading componets can be really hard to come by.

-Spencer

I'll second shopcart's suggestion; 416 Taylor. And for something different how about a quick handling carbine with a fast action for speedy follow-up shots. I just bought a Browning BLR in 7 mag that, after testing as is for future comparison, is going in for a new 20" barrel chambered for the 416 Taylor.

Fjold -- what about a .404 Jeffery? You know the topic of two enormous posts on the big bores forum right now? Doen't get much more traditional and from what I understand, it's quite the round.

The MRC long action is a little longer than the normal long action so it will take a 375 H&H length cartridge.

The only thing wrong with a 416 Taylor is that it's a wildcat.

500 grains, those are beautiful guns, to bad their wrong handed.

I'll have to check the 404 Jeffery and 416 Rigby

Wildcat, yes.
But it is just a 458 WM necked down.
If you are handy with a lathe, you could make your own body die so that you have a step between .458 and .416

That is what I did to make 17 Ackley Bee brass.
I made a little die that squuezes the neck to about .20 and bumps the shoulder back, then I resize in the 17 Ack Bee die and it comes out looking funny, but fireforms perfectly.

Or Huntington's sells a form die but its really expensive.

-Spencer

416Rigby, 458Lott, 404Jeff.

You need look no further than the 416 Rigby. It flat gets the job done. Nearly any job!-Rob

I like my .404j but on that big action it would be a .416rigbly, unless you just have to go bigger, then .458lott or .505gibbs, etc.

416 Rigby or the 458 lott. I think the Rigby is about as much rifle as most can stand, The Lott is that and a bit more of a stopper.

If you want Nostalgia then go with the 404 Jefferys...The 416s nostalgia is mostly in the mind of the owners, it was never very popular because it was too expensive and only for the elite..It was made popular by Ruarke and Selby in one book...After that a few well known PHs took it up, but the 404 was king, the darling of the game depts and the locals along with the 9.3x62 and both were later pretty much replaced by the the great 375 Holland and Holland.....but to this day you see a lot of old 404s in FN Mausers carried by game scouts in Tanzania..

there are a lot of calibers being suggested that are simply too short to be using in that big action, you will have feeding problems or have to block the magazine..Also you don't want a wildcat if your going to use it in Africa, I see too many laws coming into play to risk that..In the past it has never been a problem as far as I could tell, but todays Africa is changing...

Your pretty well locked in to a big bore like a 404 (my personal choice) or a 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc. all good guns...

In fact I could be swayed to a 505 Gibbs or some big long ugly 50 caliber, but the Gibbs has the most nostalgia of the big bores and your post indicated a need for a nostalgic shot in the arm, the 500 Jefferys, a caliber I really like, but it would be better suited to a smaller action I believe..

Fjold,

The 416 Rigby is a great and nostalgic round and I love it, but I would encourage you to look into the 458 Lott as well. The Lott is my current infatuation and I really like its versatility. The Rigby is the better long range cartridge if that's important, but for just plain busting rocks, having fun and shooting a ton of "stuff" I like the Lott. 405gr FPs work great on varmints and are a fun practice load where the full 500gr loads give you the "recoil junkie" effect when you want it. That being said I'm having a 550 Magnum being built by Mike Scherz If you're like some of us here, you'll end up with many more big bore projects...so don't sweat it. Select the cartrdge you want, build the rifle...and then plan the next one!

John

My battery would be as follows:

Rifle-Light / medium: 338 WM
Rifle-medium / semi-heavy: 375 H & H Magnum
Rifle-heavy: 458 Lott

What do you think?

Oscar.

At the moment one can only take two rifles into most of Africa. That said, I suggest a real heavy and a 375H&H. That is what my PH says is ideal. The 375 can make killing shots from 25 yards to 300 yards. Anything under 25 yards is stretching a bit. That is where the heavy rifle comes in. He owns a 458 Lott, but carried a 416 Rigby. He says the Lott, at 2350fps, is THE heavy bolt action rifle. That said, my CZ550 in 450 Dakota with actual MV of 2370fps anchored my buff with the first shot. I loaded Swift A-Frame 500gr SPs. Hit just behind the shoulder crease at 165yds he never moved 10 feet. He thought that load unbeatable for anything, and a good charge stopper. Next trip, I will have the 550 Gibbs done, with a good load around 2150-2200fps and give it a workout on Elephant and Buffalo. I'll take my 416 Rigby with a 350gr spitzer SP as well.

Rich
Buffalo Killer

Oops, 550 Gibbs (505 Gibbs?) Must be really impressive shot big elephants. I want one, but I settle for the 458 Lott, I do not think it is wrong and who also does a good job. I choose well for the money. Being poor is what we have.

Oscar.

"Completing the battery" never would have thought that to be possible. At least not in my world. The never ending quest for more favorite rifles is an ongoing journey. That being said I'll go look at some of my favorites and dream of future hunts. Rodney.

the most practical of ALL big bores is the 458 lott ...

its wicked easy to get, to feed, and to shoot, and can load it up or down to whatever you want.

want a standard length action? do a 458 AR, seriously. Its just a lott in a standard action, and brass is NEARLY commerically available!!

the 458 is the best of the true big bores, for bullets, selection, loading data and CONTROLABILITY

the Lott is good, only if you have a magic rifle barrel that can get it to the advertised 2350fps.
By time the ammunition travels to Zim, it seems to have lost 50-80fps. That according to my PHs accessed chronograph. The velocity loss is why he packed a 416 Rigby this year. If you buy the Lott, make sure your loads will make the advertised 2350. Otherwise, get a 450 Dakota/Rigby and get the velocity you are paying for.

Rich
Buffalo Killer

quote:

the Lott is good, only if you have a magic rifle barrel that can get it to the advertised 2350fps.
By time the ammunition travels to Zim, it seems to have lost 50-80fps. That according to my PHs accessed chronograph. The velocity loss is why he packed a 416 Rigby this year. If you buy the Lott, make sure your loads will make the advertised 2350. Otherwise, get a 450 Dakota/Rigby and get the velocity you are paying for.

I want to buy a 550 Magnum Ceska, I do not know exactly who has the long-barreled rifle, but I hope it is enough to get the maximum benefit of 458 Lott. I'm not going to reload, therefore I will use commercial ammunition, possibly to be cheap (eg Hornady). I do not mind having a 505 Gibbs.

Oscar.

The Lott is very easy to keep supplied with ordnance. It's ability to interchange with the .458Win can make it very handy if needed. Besides what can't be taken with a 500 grain solid at speeds of 2150-2250 fps. Rodney.

if the 480gr at 2150 in a 450 NE kills everything, in a lott, at 2200, aint any worse... and, a lott at 2200 is "fairly" middle pressure, as that last 100fps is always the pressure...

2350 in a lott is way over pressure..

the answer to the 458 winmag, not making 2150 at high pressure, ,is the 458 lott at 2200, and much lower pressure than max 458 loads

and 405 rems at 2000fps will flat out hammer most north american game for practice

i don't currently have a lott, i have the 458 AR, though! it can make 2400, but 2300 is way way lower pressure

Thats what I was thinking of in the way of pressure. I know 2300 was the target velocity in a perfect world, but then the Lott at even 2200 fps is a wonderful improvement over the Winchester version considering pressures. Rodney.

I have completed the battery: my SAKO 375 H&H

My 416 Remington Mag

And my CZ 550 458 Lott

With my Lott I get 2320 solid bullet SN I get 2280

Great battery of rifles, I would like the same.

Oscar.

I notice that no one has mentioned the 425WR. I have one and after next years hunt will be able to report on how effective it is

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
I notice that no one has mentioned the 425WR. I have one and after next years hunt will be able to report on how effective it is

Love to hear how it performs.
What game are you after and have you worked a load for the 425WR?

For a big/dangerous game battery I have the .375 H&H, a .416 Taylor, a .458 Lott, and have a .470 Capstick still at the gunsmith. I think adding a 9.3x62 will just about do it.

Namibiahunter

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
OK, I have a bunch of small and medium caliber rifles from 17 HMR through 300WSM and added the 375 H&H last year. I really want to add a 40+ caliber big bore rifle. I know that the 416 Remington is the modern standard but I want somethoing diffferent.
What should I build on a Montana Rifle Company, long action that would be in a more traditional "African" caliber (not a wildcat)?
This would be a traditional blue steel and wood gun.

So Frank, what did you ever get built on that long MRC action?
I settled on 416 Rem Mag for mine. I have a Lothar-Walther barrel in the Mauser type E profile and Blackburn 4X drop box bottom metal designed for that cartridge. The action and parts are sitting with the smith awaiting their turn for his shop hours.

For me, the only two serious over 375 bore contenders on that action were 416 Rem mag and 458 Lott. Be interested to hear what you decided on.

cheers,
- stu

I misunderstood the thread, so the partner of the forum wants is to complete their battery of rifles, I say:

-458 Lott.

It's my favorite, it has gained a pulse.

Oscar.

"What should I build on a Montana Rifle Company, long action that would be in a more traditional "African" caliber (not a wildcat)?
This would be a traditional blue steel and wood gun."

Isn't the 416 Taylor a wildcat and not a traditional African cartridge?

My vote would be for the 416 Rigby or 404 Jeffery. To my mind the 458 Lott is also a relative newcomer and not one of the romantic, African classics.

Lou

Guys, these are all great suggestions but the MRC long action will not accommodate the .416 Rigby, Fjold already has a .375 H&H, and MRC does not chamber a gun in .404 Jeffery.

Fjold, if you are looking for a traditional African Caliber, then I would suggest either a .404 Jeffery or a .416 Rigby with the Rigby being the cheapest and easiest option. You can buy an off the rack .416 Rigby from CZ for about $1000 and then send it to AHR and have them slick up the action, cut the barrel back to 22-23 inches, install a barrel band, bed it and gunkote it and for under $2000 you will have yourself a nice rifle shooting the best big game magazine cartridge ever devised. Or, if you are so inclined, you can just pick up a Ruger Safari Magnum in that caliber and you will be good to go.

It you want to stick with MRC and a .375 length action, go with the Lott. It's boring but it works.

Dave

If I had an MRC long action laying around then I would consider the .470 Capstick. Considering the dimensions of the action the Capstick would be about as big as one could possibly go without stressing the action. The rcvr barrel ring is 1.340" same as Reminton and Winchester. None of these three actions were originally designed for anything with a rim bigger than .532". I would hold out for the "PH" action for larger chamberings or just get a CZ. Just some thoughts. Rodney.

Hey Rodney
I am in the shop, all day, working on the -120!

I'm jealous, I've got to get busy and find somebody to turn these blanks down for me and then I need to quit scrapping out actions. A double would sure compliment the battery- maybe this year. Rodney.

Man, you have access to my shop just about anytime.. and i should have the tig welder all fixed up in a month...

let's get soem cerrosafe and measure those bores!

Fjold, what did you finnally decide on with your MRC long action? I would of thought the .470Capstick to be a cool option as you don't see them very often. The .458Lott being a great standard, rather common but still alot of power. What would be the mag capacity be in say .375H&H? These seem like very good actions but I've no experience with them, although I do have the "PH" version on order. Rodney.