The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416 Remington Model 70 AccuracyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
I've been tuning up my 416 RM Model 70 for an upcoming hunt. I haven't much experience with this particular rifle or caliber. I have it in a McMillan stock with pillars. I loaded up 350 grain TTSX's with various charges of Varget. The best group I could manage was about 2.25 MOA, and some much, much worse. This does not mirror my experience with any other caliber. The brass was new, properly prepped, and COAL was 3.600". Any thoughts on what I should expect from this rifle and cartridge? I'm feeling this should be a lot better, based on the number of them sold. What say you? | ||
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Order a sample pack from Superior Ammo and see what bullet shoots best - then tune that load. Yes, I know seating depth, powder choice, and charge weight make a difference as well, but the bullet is the #1 determining factor as long as you are falling within normal ranges for the other variables I listed. Then, experiment with the bullet that shoots best in terms charge weight, powder selection, and seating depth. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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| One of Us |
How is the barrel mounted recoil lug bedded? I have had the best luck with bedding only the back of the lug with the sides and bottom left with plenty of room for the barrel to vibrate. If that lug is bedded tight it can definitely queer accuracy. I've had several 416 Rem Mags and they have all shot wonderfully...mostly 400 grain bullets and always Reloader 15. Somewhere between 78 to 81 grains has always worked. Good luck! | |||
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| one of us |
I would check the bedding also have some one else sho0t it. | |||
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| One of Us |
What generation is your rifle? In my experience, the QC on some of the later New Haven guns was spotty. I had one that was a tack driver, two that left a lot be desired in the accuracy dept. My understanding is the current rifles being churned out of the FN facility in South Carolina are of much more consistent quality. | |||
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Mine is fed brass that I made up from Hornady cylindrical brass. It shoots Hornady, Nosler, Barnes solids CEB Raptors and solids all together into a 2" group, individually all the bullets group into less than MOA with Raptors and Noslers into 0.5 MOA. You have got a problem which is most likely bedding. | |||
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| One of Us |
It is definitely a problem with the setup. I regularly shoot little tiny groups with other calibers. I'm going to be sure the barrel is clean, smooth it out with a little JB (a borescope is not always a good thing to have - this barrel is ROUGH). I'll recheck the bedding and action screw torque. I would suspect the little 2x scope I have on it as I've had it quite a while, but, I did get one triangular, 2" group. The others looked like scatter nodes and were as big as 8". I can also put the factory stock back on it, if need be. I switched to the McMillan so I could get a good look at the open sights, should I ever need them. It sounds like I should be able to get sub-moa, so, I'll figure it out. | |||
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| One of Us |
My Mod70 416Rem is also bedded in a Mcmillan stock. It did not like Varget powder but shoots great with RL15 with 400gr Swifts or TSX's. I never had any luck with the 416 with the TTSX's either. | |||
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mine like 400gr hornady pills with win760 and fed 415, set on the crimping groove... medium load how far back from the lands are you? barnes likes -.065 or MORE loading to 3.6 is good, but how does that compare to you chamber? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Is it scoped? What is that set-up? Check rings, bases, and scope in that order. If you are going to carry a big stick, you've got to whack someone with it at least every once in while. | |||
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| one of us |
I had my Mod 70 bedded by a competent gunsmith that focuses on building accurate rifles. He cut the barrel to 22 inches and improved the trigger greatly. It shoots 400 gr TSX bullets very well; don't have the load as I am in a hotel right now, but it uses Varget powder. Also shoots Hornady solids fairly well. The barrel on my rifle is rough as well; patches come out green for quite a while. Mine is an older Mod 70 but I got lucky. Frankly, I am not impressed by either Mod 70 or Mod 77 accuracy, but maybe times have changed. Spending money on gunsmithing is such a no brainer IMO. You can get a lot of work done for a hartebeeste TF. | |||
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| One of Us |
I had an M70 in a McMillan stock with bedding problems too. It shot a pattern. Ended up selling it without working on the issues and a friend is gonna spin me up some new barrels and bed them into Legend stocks. | |||
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| one of us |
Because this isn't what I would call a long range varmint rifle. Consistent 2 inch groups well kill a lot of big game out to past 300 yards. While sub minute rifles are very nice they are not necessary to kill a lot of big game. Having some varmint rifles that well consistently produce .750 groups and smaller one can get spoiled. But I killed over 50 head of big game with my Savage 99 out past 200 yards and its only a 2 inch rifle. Heck a whitetail kill zone is 12x12 and that's not counting the front shoulders and the spine. | |||
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What p dog shooter said! A 416Rem is NOT a varmint rifle but rather a big bore DG rifle. Shooting any DG that requires a large bore rifle (that excludes Leopard and Croc which can be easily handled with your favorite deer cartridge) will be done at under 75 yards and usually much closer. At that range a Buff, Lion, Rhino or Ele heart/lung shot with a 2" MOA rifle will do the job very nicely every time, as well as brain shots on Hippo in the water. Having said that, I've owned two 416Rem rifles, a Remington 700 and a Winchester Mdl 70. Both were built by their respective Custom Shops and both shot sub-inch MOA at 50 yards. I sold the Remington, which actually shot a bit better, and kept the Winchester as it was SS, which I prefer in a DG rifle. I have taken Eland, Hippo and many Buff with 400gr 416Rem bullets, primarily Swift A-Frames and Barnes solids, but lately CEBs. I see no benefit to shooting a 350gr bullet. Hope this helps. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I'd go to the standard 400 grain bullet. That is what the rifle was designed for. My .416 Rem., albeit a custom built by Bill Wiseman, will put factory ammunition in the same hole at 100 yards. It just works. | |||
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I have a late New haven .416. Never shot it till recently had ejection problems sent it back and they fixed it. So now I get to shoot it, 400 grain hornady DGX over varget and various factory loads. shoots right at MOA off a bench rest which left me pleasantly surprised. It is properly bedded and pillared in the factory stock and a sub 3 lb trigger. I am very pleased with it as I know it's way more accurate than I will ever need (confidence). On the other hand I have a Browning M70 stainless extreme weather 270 that I could never get to shoot as good as I thought it should. Maybe needs bedding work. Bottom line is that gun when properly sorted out should be plenty accurate. Good luck White Mountains Arizona | |||
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| One of Us |
My 416 is a first year of "re-production" of the controlled round feed in 1994. Shooting the 350 Speer over BL-C2 gave me 2600 fps and sub 1" groups at 100 yds. Killed a nice bison with it a few years back. A consistent tack driver for a large bore.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Mine is the New Haven with the re-designed Miller style stock. It works well with a scope but a little less well with its NECG iron sights as you have to scrunch a little. But the Nosler 400 grain Partition and the Nosler solids work well in it. While I did shoot a few of the other bullets like the Hornady and the Speer to try - the Nosler's are the best shooting and have excellent performance too. In the 400 grain you might try the A-Frames if they are available if the Noslers don't work for you. | |||
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| One of Us |
So, what did I find? 1 - The stock was not tight enough. I ended up at 45 in-lbs but I might try a little tighter. 2 - The scope moved. I thought it not possible, but, I have little experience with the big bore. I marked it with some of Biebs' nail polish (he likes red) and it did move. I torqued it more aggressively. 3 - I stopped crimping as some of the lengths didn't end up on a groove on the Barnes. Here's one of the groups. I'm sure I could do better with better sites, and, I will do some more experimenting. I measured the chamber and it is huge - freebore akin to a Weatherby. The best group came from "longer than book" by .040", but still a LOOOONG way from the lands. That length fed and ejected fine, though. The load is 83 grains of Varget, 3.640", CCI LMR primer. This is under 1 MOA by just a bit.  | |||
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Certainly more than adequate! You might also try a Federal 215 primer and see if that makes any difference. | |||
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Nice! Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Wonderfull, that is how it should be! I find my big bores much less finicky to get accurate loads than the smaller stuff, and also much more forgiving with different components. | |||
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| One of Us |
My 375 H&H remington is also in a McMillan stock and is very accurate with 250 gr TTSX, usually one inch MOA. You might ask Barnes for their bullet jump suggestion. I set 0.050 inch. Powder Hodgdon Superformance. 300gr TSX also very accurate. Your trigger and scope affect accuracy. | |||
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| one of us |
I have found the .416 Rem to be inherently accurate, If I were you, Id have it glass bedded, add a couple of cross bolts, I'm pretty sure it will shoot right at an inch, most do...but for what the 416 is designed for 2.25 isn't a disaster. If you use it for other than DG then I'd get it work on. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, I'm under an inch at 100, I'm going to bet I can cut that in half. It's a challenge now. | |||
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| Moderator |
Oddly I find 416s to actually be the varmint rifle accuracy of the big bores. If you keep it under 2500 fps recoil is pretty mild and I find most people can handle them well. I still prefer .458 bullets or .475 .. or bigger, as that is my thing. I have had a couple 416s of various flavors that where half moa guns. Stupidly precise.. Bed and a couple crossbows on a McMillan stock ? Huh? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
Very few rifles will shoot under a half inch, even few big bores will shoot under a half inch otherwise they would be shooting big bore matches with them...If your gun shoots and inch you have an exceptional gun, hang on to it.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| Moderator |
BS Ray, and you KNOW it Big bores, if one can take the punch, tend to be MORE accurate than mediums .. I "discovered" this a couple decades ago ... bigins tend to be WAY more accurate than little ins... if you have the stones to take the whack... "everyone" knows this. in fact, its instrumentally likely, as the big guns actually reduce subtending issues... reduced instrument error.. that is, math I've posted quiet a few pics of way under MOA big bores.. (sigh) this was a CRUMBY day..11/30/06 in Spring Texas, feel free to look it up on wunderground .. cold, raining, and windy .. i was in a hurry, on my way to Falfurious and just checking zero. 416 Accrel, 400gr hornady sps, about 2500fps ...  and several piggies realized it that weekend  470 AccRel - 5 shot 100 yards - target is 1", bullet is .475, remove 1 .475, and way sub moa...  opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Moderator |
fact is, very few shooters can shoot MOA consistently, even if the riles can do far better -- unless one is world class, the rifle can ALWAYS out-shoot the loss nut on the stock ... weighed and measured ammo .. btw, that's an Adams and Bennett barrel on a "national ordinance" 1903a3 action.. laying on sandbags, in the rain and wind opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Moderator |
And here's a couple more examples of those "mythical" 1/2 MOA or better big bores...
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffe is right. If I do my job, my .416 will make one sometimes not so ragged hole. I have a harder time doing that with my light rifles. Leaving in a week and just got back from the range an hour or so ago for a final zero check. My light rifle, a .30-06 did MOA, or very nearly so, (probably would have done better if my eyes were better). The .416 was better. | |||
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| one of us |
A heavy caliber rifle can be assembled to shoot under at or under 1/2" However finding someone to sit behind that rifle and milk it for all its worth is much harder to find. | |||
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| One of Us |
I made a called headshot on a bird at 75m from a fence post rest with a Sako L61R (it's for sale in the classifieds) once. If you can shoot a lot of the bigger calibers are accurate. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sounds to me like a loose nut, but not on the rifle....you RECOIL PANSY!!!! :-) | |||
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| One of Us |
500 Jeffery, 50 yards, 570g TSX, 105g H4895, not my best group but it will do ...  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey, Chuck, you validate my point, but you let that last one leak out to the right about a 1/16th of an inch. | |||
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| One of Us |
I know, I know, that was my flinch  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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| One of Us |
When a rifle goes sour the first place to start is checking the screws. Even if it just shifted zero a bit try turning the screws before turning the dials. Over time it'll save you a truck load of ammo. Oh, I'm sure that there are people that never had a loose screw, but don't worry, their turn is coming. Sorted out a couple custom builds for a friend the other day. One had a sliding scope and the other a loose windage screw. It can happen to anyone. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416 Remington Model 70 Accuracy
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