OK RIP things are slow on Big Bores.

Well, in the smaller bores they continually have the question, is XXX big enough for deer/elk/grizzly/buffalo?

So in Big Bores, everything is legal for anything.

what's there to say?
we all know that a .4xx SuperWhammy needs to be put in the vitals to do any good.

So what happens when a lion is charging?
Remember that youtube video where the lion charges and knocks the shooter down, all the while taking several hits before hitting the dust?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYwusa8xUY

Would a larger calibre have helped or hurt?

With a good shot placement you can shoot big or dangerous game with smaller caliber . The problem is when something go wrong !

A lion attack is a extremely dangerous situation . I prefer a buffalo or elefant attack .

In all cases you need a very big bore , and for the lion the right bullet !

A 12 gauge with 0 to 000 buckshot is a good medecine for the lion in this situation !

To answer your question , imho a big or dangerous game rifle started with "4" !

The caliber .458 is very good for a allround rifle for Africa hunting . You are armed for all situation ! The ballistic of cartridges like the 450 Rigby or 460 Weatherby is very good and shooting plain game at 200 or 300 yards is not a problem !

I shot with my 460WM a bustard at about 200 yards before it fly away !

Yes- beyond a doubt- dangerous game rifles should start with the numeral 4---

unless your name is SAEED.



SSR

Me, too, I like a '4',
though I'm in the midst of re-stocking a 500 AR Nyati. "5" is good, too.

My thoughts on the 500 is that I can cycle a new round "almost" as fast as a 338 or 416, but it is limited to two in the current magazine instead of three in my 338's and 416's. Anyway, I might be able to get two to three 338 shots off during the time of two 500 shots. So is the bigger bore worth the slighty slower recovery time?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Me, too, I like a '4',
though I'm in the midst of re-stocking a 500 AR Nyati. "5" is good, too.

My thoughts on the 500 is that I can cycle a new round "almost" as fast as a 338 or 416, but it is limited to two in the current magazine instead of three in my 338's and 416's. Anyway, I might be able to get two to three 338 shots off during the time of two 500 shots. So is the bigger bore worth the slighty slower recovery time?

My thoughts are...
If you can accurately shoot your '5xx' as well as you can your '4xx' and '3xx' then absolutely it is a better choice. And,
You should be using 'light for caliber' CEB Safari Raptor bullets in your rifle - regardless of caliber - when hunting toothed & clawed critters.

And for your M77 500 ARN - you need to visit the gunsmithing forum and determine if Kerry Stottlemyer finished his run of deep pocket plates for your Ruger.

If you can accurately shoot a caliber beginning with a 4 it is a significantly better DG choice than a 375 or a 9.3.based on my very limited experience: 2 buffalo(375 and 404)
1 tuskless(404). However nothing takes the place of an well placed shot. Lots of dangerous game have been taken with a well placed 375.

With a well placed bullet you can use smaller caliber that a 375 . In all cases you need a back up !

For a back up rifle the caliber .458 is a minimum and for lions the use of a thin jacketed soft point bullet is a must .

OK I'll bite!
If I had to choose the ultimate duo, my choices would begin with a "5": a bolt (505 Gibbs) and a double (577 NE).

I'm of the opinion that true DG rifles begin with "5xx".

A lot of this decision revolves around whether or not you can accurately shoot a rifle that starts with a "4" or bigger. I know shooters that are afraid of a .300 WM so a "4" probably is not going to be their choice.
I believe the ability to put one or more accurately placed shots into the game is more of a defining point.

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:
OK I'll bite!
If I had to choose the ultimate duo, my choices would begin with a "5": a bolt (505 Gibbs) and a double (577 NE).

I have ( and i had ! ) a lot of medium and big bores , from 9,3 to 600 ! I have a feeling that something is still missing .

Disagree with you, Todd by one digit. DG rifles begin with a .6.
Cheers, gents,
Cal

in cal mind thats a 60mm.

[quote]true DG rifles begin with "5xx".

Amen, and for really dangerous, charging critters starts with 58x....

When I saw the Charging Lion video mentioned above,
and another video of a Grizzley charging into a hunting camp,
first thoughts are 585HE with 750gr soft at 2800. Ed

No, it just has to round up to .4 so even a .358 qualifies, with enough bullet weight and velocity.

Having shot only a few beasties (and seen a few shot) with either a 375 H&H, a 416 Rem and a 500 Jeffery, I can say the 500 Jeffery as far as impact on the animals is in a whole different territory. I can also say that while the 500 is fun to shoot a few times, the fun quickly pales. I can shoot a 375 H&H even a light one for hours on end. There's no free lunch

Love this video comparing the 505 Gibbs with the 577 NE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dweguftH6co

Now if that 505 was in a bolt, and the 577 in a double, well, that would just be perfect!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Having shot only a few beasties (and seen a few shot) with either a 375 H&H, a 416 Rem and a 500 Jeffery, I can say the 500 Jeffery as far as impact on the animals is in a whole different territory. I can also say that while the 500 is fun to shoot a few times, the fun quickly pales. I can shoot a 375 H&H even a light one for hours on end. There's no free lunch

The 500 Jeffery is the best that i used for elefants .

Not for warthogs ! With a FMJ bullet through the chest it run away before it die . It's not a good cartridge for a backup rifle by warthog hunting !

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Disagree with you, Todd by one digit. DG rifles begin with a .6.
Cheers, gents,
Cal

6mm ain´t enuff Cal...

I would bet that more DG has been shot with the venerable old 375 H&H...that was in the good old days...a PH back up rifle and the days when you didn't have to worry that the game would fall outside the property, concession or in a Park!!
Today it is a different story, best get it down for keeps so you don't lose it to the park or adjoining property!!
So, YES, the bigger, over 40 cals do the job much better....and when the going gets tough, ie adrenaline charged Lion charge...the bigger the better where the 5's and 6's show their goods....if the shooter can do the job!!
I still vividly remember my first two Buff with the 375, first one down with a heart shot...the second, not the same luck!!.....and the flying charge of my wounded lion....well, I survived, but I vowed not to do that AGAIN!! BIG DOUBLES PREVAIL!! My PH did not hit either with his 458 Win!! Go Figure....
Cheers,

Just my opinion but DG rifles should fit the shooter right...behave like a natural extension of the body...telepathic.

Is the caliber important? Yes. Is it the end all? No. It has to be "enough gun" to do the job...beyond that? If it doesn't fit right or isn't a natural extension of ones though then no size of caliber is going to be enough.

In my perfect little imagined world I spend so much time with rifles even my pinky finger becomes that natural extension. That I have the skill set to act against a charging 'Phant or Buff from 20 yards. Or 5 yards.

Unfortunately the reality is closer to my fingers typing 90+ per minute and an emoathic capcity in managing exceedingly complex client relationships.

Regardless, make mine a 450/400 DR...

C'mon, Jens, you know no real rifles are in a metric caliber--just kid's toys.
Cal

Oh. Sorry. Thought this thread was going to be about 4bores.

My mistake...

I can only comment on my own experience, and the experience of those I have hunted with.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with 416 rifles.

A 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby Improved.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with various 375.

A 375H&H magnum, a 375/416 Rigby and a 375/404.

The only one I would not like to use again is the 375/416 Rigby.

And that is because it did not have the same penetration as the other rifles.

In fact, we were very surprised at how little penetration that rifle displayed, with the bullets we were using.

They were Barnes X of 300 grain weight, driven at 3140 fps at the muzzle.

We found that the best penetration we can get with these bullets was around 2700-2800 fps or there abouts.

We have never seen any difference in the killing effect of any of the above rifles.

I would love to take a dozen different rifles to try on safari.

Sadly, due to all the red take one has to go through nowadays, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

That is why we take two rifles - 375/404 - and use them for everything.

From shooting an elephant or buffalo from a few yards, to shooting eland and waterbuck at over 500 yards.

They do the job admirably well.

In close quarters with dangerous game, I believe one only has the chance of one shot, and that shot better be accurately placed in the central nervous system.

Otherwise the size of the bullet is immaterial.

I certainly do not subscribe to Taylors knockdown values at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I certainly do not subscribe to Taylors knockdown values at all.

I've wondered about the value of Taylor's values, Sectional Density, etc in real-life performance of modern bullets on large game.

You don't need Taylor's KO factors when you are pushing those 300gr pills at Mach 10!!
It is interesting, however, that Saeed said he did not like the performance of the 375/416....I have heard the same of the 378 Weatherby....when those super-speed 375 bullets hit an Elephant's boney and honeycomb noggin, they ricochet around and lose all of their energy rather than pounding through like a stiletto or heavy cannon ball of a double...and getting to the brain!!
Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can only comment on my own experience, and the experience of those I have hunted with.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with 416 rifles.

A 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby Improved.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with various 375.

A 375H&H magnum, a 375/416 Rigby and a 375/404.

The only one I would not like to use again is the 375/416 Rigby.

And that is because it did not have the same penetration as the other rifles.

In fact, we were very surprised at how little penetration that rifle displayed, with the bullets we were using.

They were Barnes X of 300 grain weight, driven at 3140 fps at the muzzle.

We found that the best penetration we can get with these bullets was around 2700-2800 fps or there abouts.

We have never seen any difference in the killing effect of any of the above rifles.

I would love to take a dozen different rifles to try on safari.

Sadly, due to all the red take one has to go through nowadays, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

That is why we take two rifles - 375/404 - and use them for everything.

From shooting an elephant or buffalo from a few yards, to shooting eland and waterbuck at over 500 yards.

They do the job admirably well.

In close quarters with dangerous game, I believe one only has the chance of one shot, and that shot better be accurately placed in the central nervous system.

Otherwise the size of the bullet is immaterial.

I certainly do not subscribe to Taylors knockdown values at all.

Saeed, Good Friend:
You are misrepresenting this.
You did not use your Walterhog or GSC, North Fork, or CEB bullets of proper make for the higher velocity.

Some possible reasons not to use the .375/.416 Rigby or 378 Weatherby:
Extra recoil, or greater rifle weight, longer bolt throw (sometimes, though your rifles are Rigby length for the .375/404),
and reduced magazine capacity compared to the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed.

A brass FN solid, or a copper soft that blows off its nose petals and becomes an FN solid
can handle the extra velocity and not lose out on penetration.

Yes, round nose solids will go squirrely, more so at higher velocity.
Conventional softs, and even the old Barnes X-Bullets that you were using way back then,
may expand too much at higher velocity, and decrease penetration compared to lower velocity,
and yes the resistance of game animals is greater to a higher velocity bullet,
but the FN solids will stay on course,
and slow down until they are going as slow as those launched from lesser cartridges.
Then they have produced a huge initial wound before they settle down to penetrate like a slower cartridge:
Greater penetration at higher velocity is routine with the right bullet.

Even a North Fork soft point can fold its nose back to smaller diameter at higher velocity and out-penetrate a slower cartridge.

Brass Non-Con hollowpoint softs: They blow their nose petals off at high velocity
and then settle down to deep penetration with the remaining cylindrical shank.

You get slightly better long range trajectory and greater spin for stabilizing the entry from air to game animal with higher velocity too.

Just extra recoil and lesser magazine capacity are the only flies in the .375/.416 Rigby or .378 Wby ointment,
for the handloader.
Though the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed is good enough for any game,
there is no excuse for maligning the penetration of a faster cartridge, if you select the right bullet.
See Terminal Ballistics thread pinned to the top of this forum, please.

Listen to Saeed's experiences. .375 cal advocate
Listen to Michael458's experiences. .500 cal advocate and HATES .375 cal
Listen Mark Sullivan's experiences .585, .620, .700 cal
And I am sure there are men who've used .408-.416 cal on a thousand animals with great success.
And I am sure there are men who've used .458-.488 cal on a thousand animals with great success.

For sure we know that a man with a caliber that he can't shoot accurately a time or three, WHEN
HE'S TIRED, AT THE END OF A LONG, HOT DAY, HAS THE WRONG RIFLE!

quote:

I know shooters that are afraid of a .300 WM so a "4" probably is not going to be their choice.

The obvious answer here is that if a hunter cannot shoot an adequate DG rifle accurately, then he has NO BUSINESS hunting dangerous game, period. A .243 WCF will kill a lion dead as a door nail, but it is not a DG caliber.


.

I got my first big bore earlier this year - a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Yes I preferred it to a 375H&H because I already have a 9.3X62. I could just as easily have gone for a 404 Jeffery project rifle that was also very nice.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
For sure we know that a man with a caliber that he can't shoot accurately a time or three, WHEN
HE'S TIRED, AT THE END OF A LONG, HOT DAY, HAS THE WRONG RIFLE!

This should be written in stone...

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can only comment on my own experience, and the experience of those I have hunted with.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with 416 rifles.

A 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby Improved.

I have shot elephants, buffalo and lion with various 375.

A 375H&H magnum, a 375/416 Rigby and a 375/404.

The only one I would not like to use again is the 375/416 Rigby.

And that is because it did not have the same penetration as the other rifles.

In fact, we were very surprised at how little penetration that rifle displayed, with the bullets we were using.

They were Barnes X of 300 grain weight, driven at 3140 fps at the muzzle.

We found that the best penetration we can get with these bullets was around 2700-2800 fps or there abouts.

We have never seen any difference in the killing effect of any of the above rifles.

I would love to take a dozen different rifles to try on safari.

Sadly, due to all the red take one has to go through nowadays, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

That is why we take two rifles - 375/404 - and use them for everything.

From shooting an elephant or buffalo from a few yards, to shooting eland and waterbuck at over 500 yards.

They do the job admirably well.

In close quarters with dangerous game, I believe one only has the chance of one shot, and that shot better be accurately placed in the central nervous system.

Otherwise the size of the bullet is immaterial.

I certainly do not subscribe to Taylors knockdown values at all.

Saeed, I like your tastes in hunting tools. There is something nice about 2800fps in Africa.

Philosphizing a little, perhaps the 2800fps hunting ethos is related to many happy experiences with a 270? The venerable 270 tended to push 150 grain bullets at 2800-2900. On the other hand, someone with a lot of experience with 30-06 and heavy bullets might have leaned toward a 458 pushing a slow heavy bullet. Anyway, I've always appreciated a relatively faster bullet in a particular calibre/cartridge energy level.

The problem of redtape and paperwork for taking rifles to Africa has always been a challenge. Something I am facing for the coming months. We sold one of our 416s to make way for another second rifle (thinking of a 500 AR Nyati at time of sale). So my son and I are contemplating a new 'second' rifle. Do we go back to another 416Rigby with 350 grain handloads at 2800fps? It's a proven all-around rifle (and just about the hunting equivalent of a 300 grain .375/404 in terms of trajectory and adequate energy) and the same ammo can be used for the first and second rifle. However, a flat-shooting 416 can be intimidating for a friend (or wife) who wants to learn to shoot and hunt. So another choice for a 'second' rifle is a 338 WM with two different loads. One load would be a 180-185 grain (like the new CEB brass or copper raptors) loaded down to 2600fps. That would recoil like a 308/30-06, and would be good for any friend who would learn to shoot and would be capable of any plains game at distances under 300 yards. The other loads would be 225 grain high-BC, monolithic, at 2800-2850fps, brass 250 gr solids at 2700fps. The 225/250 grainers would be all-purpose plains game loads. Good bullets would provide enough penetration to be an added resource when tracking down a 'dead' buffalo with the 416. You are aware that a 338 in the nervous system of a buffalo has very good results.

The last thought leads us to a third choice, a 500 AR Nyati. In spite of my happy experiences with the 270, 338, 416, (and many calibres in between on occasion, e.g., [222, 223], 7mmRM, 30-06, 300WM, 300Weatherby, 8x57, 375HH) I have accepted the accumulated wisdom that a 500 can do things up-front that the lesser calibres only do to a lesser degree. For example, my son and I have watched scores of hartebeest/waterbuck/roan sized animals taken with both the 270 and the 338. It is our opinion that the 338 required fewer follow-up shots. Yes, the 270 worked wonders, and I still remember a hartebeest at full gallup, across the field of view (yes, across--the herd was following some spooked smaller antelope rather than showing us their tails), proper lead with the 270 on the herd male and a puny 130 grain bullet created a spectacular flip and long slide with an explosion of dust. The dust settled with the hartebeest layed out pretty as you please (lucky high heart shot--or did something touch the spine?). Nevertheless, the 338 provided a consistency in dropping the animals from all angles that has left a lasting impression on my son and me. So what was the difference between the 270 and 338? They both penetrated extremely well (we were Nosler fans at the time) and both took any game when called upon. But apparently the extra diameter and extra energy of the 338, on average, cut down on the plans of of fleeing animals. I bring this up because of analogy. It leads me to give creedence to reports that the 500's have a noticeably stronger effect on animals like a buffalo. The formula for a backup stopper (though there is no such thing as a true 'stopper') seems to be guaranteed penetration plus diameter in a properly constructed bullet. Anyway, back to choices for bringing in the next gun, our 500 needs to be restocked and have loads developed, so it will probably wait another year, and maybe we'll wait on chasing a high-mountain buffalo until the 500 arrives. The multi-shot video of Saeed from the last couple of years is testimony of what those buffalo can do. Meanwhile, a 338 looks pretty nice as a second 'camp gun' and we already have one in the US. Otherwise, a person could argue something similar for a loaded-down 375Ruger, though a bit more intimidating as a rifle to be used by a wife. Everything is a sliding cline and one must make a happy compromise.

PS: so as not to leave a false impression, there is background to the above hartebeest story

quote:

Yes, the 270 worked wonders, and I still remember a hartebeest at full gallup, across the field of view (yes, across--the herd was following some spooked smaller antelope rather than showing us their tails), proper lead with the 270 on the herd male and a puny 130 grain bullet created a spectacular flip and long slide with an explosion of dust. The dust settled with the hartebeest layed out pretty as you please (lucky high heart shot--or did something touch the spine?).

The 270 had first fired at the animal on a facing shot about 200 yards away. As they fled they followed some oribi and the lay of the land in a way that brought them about 100-125 yards at the closest point. A second shot was taken because we had to assume that the animal had been wounded. On post-mortem, we found that the second, broadside shot had penetrated the chest area in the center at the top of the leg/high heart. The first shot did not enter the chest or even break a rib according to my memory but had followed the rib cage around the chest. There was no tight follow-up to know whether that was just bad shot placement (probable), too low? (don't remember), or a freak result? (possible), or a light calibre/bullet combo (possible)? The important thing at the time was an animal that needed skinning and butchering. The 'lead' on the running broadside was about the distance of the lung to front neck added in front of the animal.
PPS: I've lost my records from that time, but if I remember correctly, that day we were using 130 grain Sierras, though we preferred Noslers when we had them.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
For sure we know that a man with a caliber that he can't shoot accurately a time or three, WHEN
HE'S TIRED, AT THE END OF A LONG, HOT DAY, HAS THE WRONG RIFLE!

This should be written in stone...

I tip my hat to those who have walked the walk.
I've learned from their words, as I've never been over
to Africa, and due to the cost I likely never will. It does
not prevent me from enjoying the stories that you all
return with, and it does not prevent me from learning
through all your experiences, you who DO get to go.

I have killed elephants and cape buff with the 9,3x74R, the 450/400 3 1/4" and several of each with the 450 No2. I have killed lion with the 450/400.

I will say the 9,3 "well handled" killed as good as the bigger bores. BUT I was both Lucky and Good when I shot it. I do consider it and the 375's Light for the job...

The 450/400's and the 404 Jeffery in bolt rifles, have the perfect combination of penetration and power, and low recoil IMHO.
I used a 404 Jeffery, and saw 2 of my buddies use a 404 Jeffery in Mozambique. It worked perfectly on plains game and cape buff.

BUT I must say, that I have found the 450 No2, to be the Perfect double rifle calibre. In todays world I will place the 450 Nitro Express as its Equal, as the ballistics are the same.
480 to 500gr bullets at @2100 to 2150 fps are easy to control in a Double rifle of proper weight, and Kill like the Hammer of Thor.

Also for local use, on deer and pigs, bear and elk, moose in thick cover, and for practice, there are a lot of great .458 bullets to use. My favorite is the 350 Hornady RN. I also find the recoil of the 450 Nitro's less than the 470...

So, I would say YES, Your Dangerous Game Rifle should start with a "4".

AND here is a little hint, a SCOPED double rifle [with the scope in QD CLAW MOUNTS, and a Red Dot sight], in 450/400, just might be the best All Round HUNTING rifle on the Planet, for the average over 40+ year old Safari CLIENT...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
AND here is a little hint, a SCOPED double rifle [with the scope in QD CLAW MOUNTS, and a Red Dot sight], in 450/400, just might be the best All Round HUNTING rifle on the Planet, for the average over 40+ year old Safari CLIENT...

You have me at "all around HUNTING rifle".
Where can a person pick one up for $900-$1100?

This has been a fascinating discussion for us guys with no African experience. With that said, I would like to suggest that if you have a .416, especially with todays bullets, you have all the gun you will ever need. Taylor said:

"John Rigby clinched his reputation as and African gunsmith when he placed his .416 Mauser on the market for heavy and dangerous game. If for any reason you prefer a magazine rifle to a double, there is no finer or more satisfactory weapon for all around use against dangerous animals than this .416."

NOW Krieghoff has given us the .416 in a double rifle.

Does that mean that a 40 caliber and up is always better? Not a chance. The old adage is still true, take the heaviest caliber that YOU can shoot. I'm guessing that a shoulder shot on a lion with a .375 or a 9,3 will be much more effective than a gut shot with a .416 or larger. Common sense dictates that you know your limits and practice, practice, practice.